Silvercore Podcast 142 Robin Horsfall

https://robinhorsfall.co.uk/

https://www.instagram.com/robinehorsfall/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-horsfall-52243220/

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: In today's episode, I'm talking with Robin, who has led an absolutely extraordinary life. He has faced immense adversity. And at any point, he could have easily thrown his hands up in the air and said, I give up, I've had a bad deal. I just don't have the same advantages that other people have. So why should I even try?

[00:00:32] Travis Bader: But he didn't. Instead, he looked inward. He looked at what he could do, found that fire inside himself and he persevered and he turned that adversity into the points that really allowed him to succeed in life and allowed other people around him to be able to thrive. I find this to be a very common trait in those who refuse to be a victim.

[00:00:53] Travis Bader: Those who will look at adversity and say, bring it on. It is absolutely mind boggling what we are able to accomplish when we put our mind to it and we truly understand the level of personal agency that each and every one of us has, if you follow me on social media, I have a picture posted there, this is a picture that Robin sent me and he autographed It's a picture of the 1980 Iranian embassy siege.

[00:01:20] Travis Bader: That really skyrocketed the SAS into the public eye. This is the first time on a global scale that the SAS was known and seen for what they're able to do. For anyone who's been into the Silvercore studio, they're going to see other pictures and memorabilia and books and knives and maps and all sorts of different items that past podcast guests have given me as mementos and Reminders of the conversations that we've had.

[00:01:51] Travis Bader: Now I don't place a lot of value in things, but I do place a lot of value in relationships and every time I look at these things that are up there, it reminds me of the relationships and the connections that we're able to form. In a large part due to this podcast, if you're looking to deepen your connection with others, if you're looking to deepen your connection with your natural environment, interacting with the Silvercore podcast is one way for people in the community to be able to meet each other.

[00:02:25] Travis Bader: And learn from each other. Another way is the Silvercore club, specifically designed to help people deepen their connection with a natural environment club members receive insurance. They receive free online training and discounts on courses and deep discounts on many of the industry partners that are Silvercore club.

[00:02:46] Travis Bader: And if you wanted to learn more about that, go to silvercore. ca forward slash club. Now, without further ado, let's get on with this podcast. I'm joined today by an extraordinary guest whose life reads like a blockbuster action movie, but with the depth and grip that only real experience can bring.

[00:03:04] Travis Bader: Serving with the 22nd SAS, he was involved in one of the most iconic and daring military operations of the 20th century, the Iranian embassy siege. He's a martial arts expert, author, motivational speaker, and relentless advocate for veterans. Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Robin Horsfall. Thanks, Travis.

[00:03:22] Travis Bader: Great to be here. You know, I picked up your book here, Fighting Scared, came in last Friday and I had a difficult time putting it down. What a fantastic read. Uh, I was blown away by your ability to relay Difficult experiences in an extremely understandable and relatable way. And you weave into that lessons of morality and fortitude.

[00:03:46] Travis Bader: You really are a gifted teacher. Thank you. It's, um, 

[00:03:51] Robin Horsfall: one of the joys of being able to have a, an audience is to be able to impart knowledge that's valuable to the listener or to the reader. Um, Very often, a lot of us have got a story, but we never have a forum to share it with, and um, I've had that privilege, so it's, uh, Yeah, I wrote, uh, Fighting Scared in 2002, and it took me six months, and, um, I didn't write it for any other reason than I wanted to tell the story about, uh, A young, bullied, insecure, unpopular kid from a broken home, classic sort of, um, scenario.

[00:04:29] Robin Horsfall: Who joins the army at 15, um, to get away and to escape. And, um, and moves on from there. Um, I've had people get in touch with me over the years who have read that book and, um, have said, you know, I thought there was something wrong with me until I read your story and I realized there was something wrong with every bugger else.

[00:04:50] Travis Bader: Well, I like that. And I, I honestly reading through it, I found it very relatable. The experiences that you're talking about, the way that you convey it. Just very human emotions, insecurities, um, just self esteem, self worth, uh, feeling afraid, being bullied. And they seem to be, um, sort of a constant thread throughout your life.

[00:05:15] Robin Horsfall: Well, when I was born I didn't know my father because my father was in prison and he was, he was a thief. So, um, I didn't know him, uh, my mother and he divorced when I was seven years old. And she married a man called Geoffrey Horsfall who adopted me and gave me his name. So for the first seven years of my life I never had a male role model in my life.

[00:05:37] Robin Horsfall: And, um, a lot of people say that, you know, that it's that first seven years that's so important in your personal development. And, um, when Geoffrey Horsfall came into my life, my stepfather, he'd never had a child and I'd never had a father. And, consequently, we clashed, neither knowing how to deal with the situation.

[00:05:56] Robin Horsfall: And his, um, His method was to beat me into silence. And, um, when you beat somebody into, into silence, you stunt their development. You, uh, you take away their ability to negotiate. You take away their ability to make friends because they're fearful of all authority figures. And, um, so you, you become sullen and distant from people and of course that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because you, um, you're distant and weird and, um, you, you're, you're frightened of people.

[00:06:32] Robin Horsfall: And so They don't like you because they think you don't like them. And so the system carries on. It took me many, many years to, um, to understand that, um, I needed to change myself if, um, I was ever going to have any friends in the world, that's for sure. Um, and you know, that's, um, that's the reason you get isolated, intimidated, picked on, bullied, um, is because you struggle to make friends and you struggle to communicate.

[00:07:00] Robin Horsfall: And, uh, the reason I think for my particular case was, uh, because I had my voice stolen from me by being beaten into silence. 

[00:07:11] Travis Bader: You know, I, I see some common threads of, uh, sort of an oppositional defiance disorder. I have no background in, uh, uh, in any clinical diagnosis. Well, I'll just lean on things that I've had to deal with in the past, but, uh, ADHD, Uh, oppositional defiance disorder, maybe RSD, what do they call it?

[00:07:35] Travis Bader: Rejection sensitivity dysmorphia, uh, where you figure out they're going to dislike me. So I'll just, I'll just avoid them to begin with. 

[00:07:45] Robin Horsfall: Yes. I agree with that one entirely. I mean, I, I. I sometimes I think, um, the way I communicate is I try to simplify everything I possibly can when people put, um, long, uh, laborious, uh, labels on something, it makes it sound like a prescription, um, in reality, you can get right back to the simple facts and say, you know, um, I had my boy, I, I, I had my voice beaten out of me.

[00:08:10] Robin Horsfall: Um, I did actually resent all authority figures. I was frightened of them. And when you start putting long labels on things, it makes you sound as if you're real. And you're not, you're just, you're just, um, you're just dealing with adversity in the only way you know how. 

[00:08:26] Travis Bader: I like that. You know, there's a lot of people that have these labels and they'll just marry themselves to the label and they're like, Oh, it's, you know, I'm like this because of whatever the label label might be.

[00:08:36] Travis Bader: Well, no, the label is just something there to help describe what you're going through. And you're like this right now. It doesn't mean you have to be like that in the future. And if you discipline yourself, knowing about that label, maybe you can comport yourself differently in the future. 

[00:08:51] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. The only, the only thing, the only thing in the world that any of us have the power to change is ourselves.

[00:08:57] Robin Horsfall: We can't change other people. Um, we can set an example that other people might try to follow, but we can only change ourselves. So there's something wrong in your life. And you blame somebody else. You can't change them. You can't change your wife. You can't change your kids. You can't change your friends.

[00:09:13] Robin Horsfall: You can't change. All you can do is change yourself and make changes in yourself. And that's it. Um, uh, take a hypothetical example, somebody who has a problem with alcohol and decides, okay, I'm not going to drink anymore. That's a choice. I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm, I'm violent. I've decided I'm not going to be anymore.

[00:09:33] Robin Horsfall: It's your decision. And when you take responsibility for your own actions and your own behavior, you can achieve a great deal when you spend your life blaming your childhood, blaming your parents, blaming your friends, blaming your wife, blaming somebody. Um, you never really get to the. The, um, core of the problem and the core of the problems in, in yourself, the greatest battle you ever have is the war with yourself.

[00:10:01] Travis Bader: Without a doubt. Yes. Well, you would in your book anyways, talk about going out into the woods and fishing and camping and using the wilderness as a means to be able to, I guess, center yourself or maybe escape, uh, is, is that something that you still do? 

[00:10:20] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, I think, um, I think, um, two things. I think, yes.

[00:10:26] Robin Horsfall: It was an escape. I do. When you, when you, um, you have to learn to cope when you are unpopular. And so being happy in your own company. Is quite a good way of dealing with that. So get away from everybody. That's a problem in your life and sit by a lake and go fishing or go walking over the mountains and, um, you know, enjoy that particular style of life.

[00:10:55] Robin Horsfall: Um, can be very, very, very, very, very, um, rewarding. Because you're, you're full, you're filling yourself a steam from another direction. You're not relying on other people to tell you how good you are. You're proving it to yourself. Um, so, and, um, and I still live in the mountains. I still love the wilds, but I've had some.

[00:11:16] Robin Horsfall: Health issues over the last few years. And, um, so walking, um, walking along beaches, which are nice and flat is, uh, is, uh, is, is about the toughest exercise I can cope with these days. Um, but, uh, yeah, I still love the outdoors. I still love the. I still love the lakes and the fishing and the trees and, um, and being out there alone.

[00:11:40] Robin Horsfall: Well, as I got older, I, I started taking my kids with me and then eventually my grandchildren with me. And, um, on the last occasion, I went up the mountains. I went up with two of my grandchildren and my oldest son Alex and me to a place that I'd first gone to with my youngest brother when he was 14. And, uh, called Gawrwinyfawr Reservoir in the Welsh Black Mountains.

[00:12:05] Robin Horsfall: And, um, and I went back there with my son and two of my grandsons and we camped in exactly the same place and we built a stone urn and, um, We, uh, we slept and we, we shared a big cup of cocoa by the lake. And, um, you know, and those, those things, you know, they stay with you forever because it's not the gifts you buy your children that matter.

[00:12:29] Robin Horsfall: It's the things you do with your children. Nobody remembers the Christmas presents they got or rarely. I remember the fact that daddy played ball with me in the garden on Christmas day or through or through snowballs at me or something. I remember that. They don't remember the gifts. The gifts don't mean as much as the, um, the sharing of life and time.

[00:12:51] Travis Bader: I, yeah, I resonate with that. You know, in our family, we're not big gift givers with my wife and my kids. It's experiences that we want to have. If we have money that we can put aside towards something, uh, it's what, what can we experience as a family and as a group. And I. I truly believe as long as I got my mind healthy and I got my memories with me, then there's no other gift that would be better than that.

[00:13:16] Travis Bader: And even if I lose that, at least they can carry it forward. 

[00:13:19] Robin Horsfall: That's right. I had a very good friend, um, called Mick Lee, who was a paratrooper with me, older than me. And when I had my first son, Alex, um, he was two years old and Mick said, um, how's that boy of yours? I said, it's great. He's wonderful. He's fantastic.

[00:13:36] Robin Horsfall: He said, you buy him a ball. I said, yeah. He said, you play ball with him. I said, yeah. He said, that's good. You've got to play ball with him. You know, that's, uh, that's the point. 

[00:13:45] Travis Bader: That's, that's the whole point of the thing. Yeah. Now you've, we're talking off air here a bit. And was it five great grandchildren that you have?

[00:13:54] Travis Bader: Seven. Seven, I got that wrong, seven great grandchildren, man, that's, you, you've got a heck of an, uh, an extended family now. Yeah. When you, you became a father, what was that like, given the fact that your experience of your example that you had was, uh, non existent from your biological father and, uh, quite difficult and strained with your adoptive father.

[00:14:24] Robin Horsfall: Well, I, I met the most wonderful woman when I was 21 and she was 20 and she had two baby girls at the time and she was going through a divorce and, um, I was the classic lone wolf at that time. I was doing selection for 22nd special air service. I was, uh, I'd been a soldier from the age of 15 years. And, um, bearing in mind my background, I was the archetypal soldier.

[00:14:53] Robin Horsfall: I was hard. I was, I hated the world. I would have killed anybody for my country, um, in defense of my country. Um, I loved being a soldier. That was where I got all my self esteem. My mother had died after divorcing my, after divorcing my stepfather. So the army was my home. And, um, I met this, uh, woman. And she, she saw right through me and I give her credit for giving me back my humanity.

[00:15:26] Robin Horsfall: She got into the cage with the lone wolf and tickled its ears and she would say, I know we'll never get married. I know you love the army and, uh, but if we ever did, and, uh, three years later, we, three years later, we did get married and we've been together for. Since 1978. So what's that? 47 years, this 

[00:15:45] Travis Bader: November.

[00:15:46] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:15:46] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. 

[00:15:48] Travis Bader: You know, you give her a lot of credit as well in the book Fighting Scared for it, not just being a retelling of facts, but rather helping have the emotional side and the depth to it. 

[00:16:01] Robin Horsfall: When I started writing Fighting Scared, um, it was a story I desperately wanted to tell. And, um, I did the first couple of chapters And I showed it to her and she had a read and she came back to me and she held it out to me and she said, I said, what do you think?

[00:16:17] Robin Horsfall: She said, this is shit. Awesome. What do you mean? What do you mean? She's just a report. It's just a series of facts. One after the other. What happened when it happened? It's like a military report. She said, where's the color? You know, what was the sun shining through your mother's window when you said goodbye?

[00:16:34] Robin Horsfall: And how did you feel? And, and, And, um, she gradually got me to sit down and, um, and write the book properly. And, uh, there were tears on the paper sometimes because there was a catharsis with it, you know, there was an emptying of the soul into, into that story. And, um, and I think that's why it's, uh, the book is actually 20 or 22 years old now and it still sells really well.

[00:17:01] Robin Horsfall: And I think because it resonates with an awful lot of people, it's not the hard man gas and bash them and smash them story that is so popular. It's a personal development story and, um, it takes you from this place of, uh, misfortune in many ways. To a place of, um, relative success and happiness and happiness being a success more than anything else.

[00:17:27] Travis Bader: Did you get heat from, um, the army from, or from the UK government for fear of spilling secrets or, 

[00:17:37] Robin Horsfall: Well, no, there are, there are no secrets in there to start with. Um, there are the, the, the SAS part of my life is only six years. Um, so it's a piece of the story and, um, We did put the book through the Ministry of Defence first and they asked me to take, make two minor changes, uh, from the book.

[00:17:57] Robin Horsfall: One because somebody would have been too easily identified 

[00:18:00] Travis Bader: and 

[00:18:00] Robin Horsfall: the other because I'd mentioned a tactic that had been my suggestion in the Falklands War, um, that could have been useful to somebody who'd never thought of it. So I removed those two small pieces and, uh, but we didn't have to go to them, but it was, it was the right thing to do.

[00:18:17] Robin Horsfall: And, uh, and so I removed those two small exits, uh, from the book, but outside of that, no, I didn't get any heat. Um, uh, um, you know, if there's anything that's secret, you don't go, oh my God, I can't talk about that. You just go, I don't know. 

[00:18:31] Travis Bader: Yeah, that's it. It's just, yeah, exactly. Just don't say anything. Okay.

[00:18:36] Travis Bader: It's it, so you got in 15 years old and, uh, you're, you're a para. And what I thought was really interesting was a lot of people will go for SAS selection, because this is the pinnacle. This is what they want to do. They've got it built up in their mind. This is some great feature. thing, but you went and did it sort of the, uh, uh, flip your nose up at the authorities and say, I'm not going back here.

[00:19:05] Travis Bader: I I'm, I got, I got to work around. I think I'll just try out for the SAS. 

[00:19:10] Robin Horsfall: The first two years of my service were called junior service. Okay. And, um, so that's your full time soldier, but you're not allowed in operations. And it's like a military college you're there for two, two and a quarter years. until you're old enough to join your adult unit, which was then at the age of 17 and a half.

[00:19:28] Robin Horsfall: And, um, I went to the Parachute Regiment and my battalion was the second battalion, the Parachute Regiment. And, um, that was great. Um, when my mother died, She was 37 years old. She died of cancer. And as I said, the army became my life. And I was transferred to stay in the UK to a special anti tank unit called the vigilant platoon.

[00:19:51] Robin Horsfall: And it was a guided missile anti tank weapon. And, um, a new anti tank weapon came in, in 1977, uh, called Milan, which was going to replace us. So they were going to disband the unit. And I said, look, I want to go back to the second battalion. It was my parent battalion. And they said, well, you're going to stay with the first battalion.

[00:20:13] Robin Horsfall: Um, and I didn't want to do that. 

[00:20:16] Travis Bader: And 

[00:20:16] Robin Horsfall: I said, well, you'll do as you're damn well told. And so, as you say, just to cock a snoot at authority, I said, well, I know there's something you can't stop me doing. So I went to the battalion clerk's office and, um, and asked to, uh, for the papers to volunteer for the special air service.

[00:20:32] Robin Horsfall: Well, you had to have three years of adult service and I just had three years of adult service, 

[00:20:38] Travis Bader: plus 

[00:20:38] Robin Horsfall: the two years. And, um, there was a Yorkshireman in the, in the, um, at the back of the clerk's office. And he said, I don't know why you're going to do that to us. Well, he said. You're far too young. You'll be back with your tail between your legs.

[00:20:54] Robin Horsfall: And, um, and he was wrong. I'm glad to say, and, uh, I had to have two goes at it, but, um, I got through on the second attempt. 

[00:21:03] Travis Bader: Well, you voluntarily took yourself out on the first go. 

[00:21:08] Robin Horsfall: Well, yeah, I, um, SAF selection lasts a whole year and the first month is in the mountains with the last five days called test week.

[00:21:18] Robin Horsfall: And test week is 5 days marching alone with increasing weights on your back, which begin at 35 pounds and extend up every day by 5, until you're carrying 55 day. And the distance begins at 18 miles, and on the 5th day, it gets up, the last day is 40 miles. And you do this alone with no help, no guidance.

[00:21:41] Robin Horsfall: You go checkpoint to checkpoint, check in, move on to the next place. And the first time I did it, I got to day four and it was raining. I was alone. Um, I'd, um, the weight was, uh, dug two ulcers into my kidney areas of my back 

[00:21:58] Travis Bader: and 

[00:21:58] Robin Horsfall: they were bleeding painful. And, um, psychologically it just got to me and I started thinking about the 40 miler on the next day and returned to the.

[00:22:08] Robin Horsfall: Previous checkpoint and called it a day and, uh, thought I would be returned to unit the next morning, but the major called me in and said, look, we think you've got potential, you do well, do you want to stay another four months and try again in January, 1979? I was, it's no 79. And I said, yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:26] Robin Horsfall: And they kept me on and there's two pictures of me in two photographs. One is me of the slightly chubby faced, uh, young 21 year old on the first Um, selection who fails. And, uh, one of me is four months later when I've been getting up at six o'clock in the morning, going to the swimming pool, swimming, a thousand meters, going and having breakfast, going out and doing an eight mile run with boots on over the Hills, coming back, working all day and, um, and, and doing that as a routine.

[00:22:59] Robin Horsfall: And when I had time being up the mountains and the pick, the difference between the two looks like a young chubby kid and an athlete. Um, I look older. I look stronger. My neck's thicker. You can see the difference. I was ready for it the second time. And on the second occasion, only eight of us passed. But the idea that people have from some TV shows is that you're cajoled and chased and bullied and pushed.

[00:23:27] Robin Horsfall: That's not the case at all. You're already a trained soldier. You're just given a task to do. And there's the time. Off you go. And if you don't succeed. Then you get on, you go back the next morning, nobody shouts, nobody bullies, nobody pushes, um, it's just a task. Can you achieve alone without any help? And the selection process, as I say, last year, you finish that mountain phase and then you go on to continuation training, most of which is in the jungle.

[00:23:54] Robin Horsfall: And you work as five man patrols in the jungle, uh, for a month. And then you come back from that, you do a combat survival instructor's course. And in the last week of that you're chased across the countryside by two battalions of soldiers and you have to escape for a week and then you get captured. And, um, then if you're not already a paratrooper you do parachute training.

[00:24:15] Robin Horsfall: And then you join your squadron and get your cap badge but you're on probation. And you have to join, you have to pass a personal skill and a troop skill in the next six months. And my personal skill was as a paramedic, and my troop skill was as a mountain climber. And at the end of that 12 month period, first 12 month period, if they like you, you can stay for another two years.

[00:24:36] Robin Horsfall: So, um, there's a constant, uh, pressure to succeed, but to succeed as an individual. 

[00:24:43] Travis Bader: I think, well, do you think that the fact that you had difficulty relating with people as you're growing up, difficulty making friends puts you in a prime position to be, uh, effective as an SAS soldier, but also possibly a double edged sword.

[00:25:01] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, it gave me, it gave me the advantages of being able to function alone and not need the support of others. Um, but it still made it difficult for me to succeed because what I discovered later in my career was that people very often don't get promoted on their merits. They get promoted on their, they get promoted on their popularity, especially in an institution.

[00:25:25] Robin Horsfall: Which is probably why I've been self employed for the last 25 years. Um, you know, I'm a lousy employee, but I'm a damn good boss, especially when I'm the only employee, but, um, yeah, I like working alone. The other place that it really, really helped was when I became a, when I became a raw Marine sniper. Now I say a raw Marine sniper.

[00:25:46] Robin Horsfall: It means I was trained by the raw Marines to be a sniper. And, um, that kind of job suited me perfectly. Working alone, having a task to do, being completely self reliant, using the absolute pitch of your skills in fieldcraft in order to stay alive and to carry out a very difficult task. So there are places where it's an advantage and there are places where it can be a big disadvantage too.

[00:26:15] Robin Horsfall: Do 

[00:26:16] Travis Bader: you enjoy being alone or is it something that you've learned to enjoy? 

[00:26:22] Robin Horsfall: I, um, I used to like being alone because it was an escape from being unpopular. 

[00:26:27] Travis Bader: Um, 

[00:26:27] Robin Horsfall: I have times now I'm 67. Now I have times where I want to get away for a while and just be alone, just walk, just be in the Hills, um, just sit by a Lake.

[00:26:43] Robin Horsfall: Um, but I take all my comfort from. Well, nearly all my comfort from my family. So I'm not waiting for very long because I miss them as soon as I am. 

[00:26:56] Travis Bader: I could relate to that. The growing up, you weren't a typical, um, A typically aggressive individual from what I've been reading here, aggression, wasn't something that seemed to come normal to you, but you taught yourself to be incredibly aggressive.

[00:27:16] Robin Horsfall: Scotsman taught me to be incredibly aggressive. When, um, when I joined the second battalion, um, nearly, nearly half the battalion were jocks, they were Scotsman and, um, they, they taught me a level of aggression that, um, is unsurpassed. Absolutely unsurpassed anywhere in the world. And the point about being a paratrooper is it doesn't matter what your skills are.

[00:27:43] Robin Horsfall: If you're not prepared to fight, then you shouldn't be there. And they taught me how to fight, um, and how to fight in a manner that kept you alive and how a manner that allowed you to survive among men in very, very, with very tough men in very difficult circumstances. And sometimes I felt that I was pretending to be like them.

[00:28:06] Robin Horsfall: And then later I realized, um, I think later, when I say later, I'm talking about by the time I was about 20, 21, I realized that they'd made me like them without any doubt at all. Um, yeah, yeah. Keen and mean, that's for sure. Do you find 

[00:28:23] Travis Bader: that difficult to turn off? 

[00:28:26] Robin Horsfall: Um, as I say, my wife was a big part of that.

[00:28:30] Robin Horsfall: But it was part of my, uh, job as a soldier and it made me a better soldier as well. Um, now, um, I would regard myself as quite a, a softy in a sense, in the fact that as we get older, we, we have, we struggled to. Uh, shield ourselves as well as we, you know, uh, the love that we have for other people is more obvious, uh, and we're more confident showing it, but that person, that nasty person is still in there and he's still capable of coming out when the time is appropriate and when it's needed, not for anger, but for protection of others, for survival, things like that.

[00:29:12] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, it's 

[00:29:13] Travis Bader: still 

[00:29:14] Robin Horsfall: there. 

[00:29:15] Travis Bader: What was it like when you first had your kids and we're figuring out how to be a father? What did that aggression come out? Did the, uh, did you repeat any of the, uh, the mistakes of others? 

[00:29:28] Robin Horsfall: No, I, I absolutely the opposite. My bad experiences, uh, with my own stepfather, um, and he wasn't all bad.

[00:29:37] Robin Horsfall: Don't get me wrong. You know, there were a lot of good things about him you'll get from the book. 

[00:29:41] Travis Bader: That's 

[00:29:41] Robin Horsfall: right. But, um, you know, he, um, those, um, Those bad experiences that I had, I used them to make sure they didn't happen to my kids. And I also used them to help develop children when I started my martial arts schools later on, you know, because I think a person who is genuinely strong and disciplined, self disciplined, um, will eventually become I'm much kinder person.

[00:30:10] Robin Horsfall: It's it's insecure, unhappy, ill disciplined, frightened people that are vicious. 

[00:30:17] Travis Bader: And I 

[00:30:17] Robin Horsfall: think a certain element of my viciousness as a young man came from the fact that I was frightened, which is why the book's called Fighting Scared. And Heather said to me once, you know, why were you fighting so much? I said, I was scared of getting hurt.

[00:30:33] Travis Bader: If you don't mind, I'll read a quick section out of the book, just so the audience gets a bit of a flavor for what this is about. And, uh, maybe we can talk about it. I grip my MP5 in both hands and thumb the safety catch, assuring myself once again that it was off. The only sounds I could hear were the static hissing in my earpiece and the sound of my heart pounding in my ears.

[00:30:56] Travis Bader: My greatest fear now was of making a mistake that might endanger a life, especially mine. My mind raced. Watch the windows, Robin. What do I do if someone looks out now? Don't rush. Is my pistol still in my holster? Where's my partner? The police dogs, which were being held back just inside the doors of the college, began to feel the tension in their handlers and started barking and howling.

[00:31:18] Travis Bader: Why don't you shut the bastard dogs up, I thought. The fear that had for so long been my greatest enemy welled up inside me like a balloon, waiting to escape from my throat. Hello, I thought. I'm glad you're here. Without you, I wouldn't be functioning at my best. I need to be scared to be alert. The smallest sounds were magnified and time seemed to slow down.

[00:31:40] Travis Bader: Around me, my team members moved into position calmly and without undue haste. Only seven years earlier, I had been a frightened young man on the brink of adventure, bullied and scared. Now I was walking forward into a firefight, the fear under control. My commitment to the task complete in the knowledge that I was ready, that I was the best man for the job.

[00:32:01] Robin Horsfall: Sounds great. 

[00:32:02] Travis Bader: When you read it, well, that's, uh, those are your words. Those are your words. 

[00:32:09] Robin Horsfall: It's surprising when somebody reads something to you and you think, Oh, Wow. I wrote that . 

[00:32:14] Travis Bader: Yeah, you did. It was, uh, uh, anybody who wants to read the rest is welcome to go get fighting. Scared. But that was, um, uh, 1980, was it?

[00:32:25] Travis Bader: May 5th. May the fifth, 

[00:32:27] Robin Horsfall: 1980 in London at the Iranian embassy. Yeah. Um, we were approaching our entry points. There were, um, 48 of us that entered the building. There were five floors, 55 rooms. So we had an eight man team for each floor, including the basement. And, um, one of the guys who was abseiling down the back of the building, his foot went through a window and he got his gloves stuck in his abseil harness and he got jammed there just above the window.

[00:33:00] Robin Horsfall: And I was beneath him and, um, the approach was obviously compromised by the broken window. So the commander gave the go early and we didn't have time to lay the explosives on the back door. So, um, my partner went in with a, with an eight pound sledgehammer and took the back doors out. And, uh, the guys on the front window with the famous footage, um, they, uh, planted a frame charge on the window and initiated it when they were only, you know, Only a couple of feet away from it and took the windows out and the guys went in from all the eight different entry points.

[00:33:34] Robin Horsfall: And, um, I remember above me, uh, Tom was burning on his rope, uh, because the guys who had gone past him had gone in with their, with their flashbangs, their stun grenades and set fire to the curtains. And so the curtains were burning up Tom's hanging above the window and turning into the best barbecue in town.

[00:33:54] Robin Horsfall: And, um, he's trying to, he's kicking himself out away from the flames, but his. Glove has got caught on the press or switch of his radio. So he's cut out all the communications because he's on send. And all you can hear is him screaming as he's burning and there's bullets coming through the window outwards from the inside above my head.

[00:34:13] Robin Horsfall: And I'm watching him burn and thinking, well, there's nothing I can do. Get on with your job on the roof. The guys are trying to cut the rope under tension, but they've got to get it on the inswing. So he lands on the balcony and doesn't drop 30 feet onto the concrete, which they succeed in doing.

[00:34:28] Robin Horsfall: Meanwhile, beneath him. Tommy Palmer has gone in the window, his head's caught fire, he's gone back out, taken off his gas mask, thrown it away, gone back into the gas, without a gas mask to carry on his mission, and killed two of the terrorists. Tom's down, his legs are burnt, he goes in and carries on his mission.

[00:34:46] Robin Horsfall: On the ground floor, I go in, and um, you know, there's um, a chain of, um, Troops already from the ground floor upwards and, uh, one of the hostages come down the policeman Trevor Locke and he's passed out and then the other hostages start to follow and then, um, there's a scuffle on the stairs and somebody gets butt swiped and, um, staggers on the stairs and somebody shouts he's a terrorist.

[00:35:14] Robin Horsfall: A terrorist comes clear at the bottom of the stairs holding a hand grenade. And, uh, one of my colleagues who was just in front of him shot him 24 times. And at the same time I fired three rounds from five meters away. And, uh, he died and the pin was still in the grenade. And, uh, we took everybody out. One of the terrorists got out hidden amongst hostages in seven minutes.

[00:35:38] Robin Horsfall: We rescued 19 people alive. One was killed by the terrorist during the entry. We killed five terrorists and we captured one seven minutes. Um, so it was a very famous piece of British history. 

[00:35:53] Travis Bader: No kidding. How did your life change after that? 

[00:35:58] Robin Horsfall: Things changed because nobody had heard of the SAS up to that point.

[00:36:02] Robin Horsfall: You know, they were Fred Karno's army in darkest Herefordshire and nobody had, nobody knew very much about us. Our main role at that time was counter terrorism and working undercover in Northern Ireland. So, um, we were not, not a secret service, a regular part of the British army, but, um, The secrecy came from the fact that we were targets for, uh, um, provisional IRA terrorists.

[00:36:25] Robin Horsfall: And so we had to, we had to remain anonymous during that period of threat. Um, so for a while, I think, um, you know, the world, everybody wanted to know us, everybody wanted to talk about us. Um, we had to remain anonymous and, um, some people started to believe their own press 

[00:36:45] Travis Bader: and because 

[00:36:45] Robin Horsfall: you're special at one thing, it doesn't mean you're special at everything.

[00:36:49] Robin Horsfall: So we were special soldiers. We were special soldiers. And all of a sudden, everybody thought that we were Mr. Miyagi and we could, we knew the secrets of life. Um, and it took a while for that to settle down and, um, and to move on and get on with life again. 

[00:37:04] Travis Bader: I think you just got the, uh, the YouTube thumbnail right there.

[00:37:10] Travis Bader: Ex SAS soldier speaks about secrets of life. Done. Not a lie. Speaks about 

[00:37:17] Robin Horsfall: not being Mr. 

[00:37:18] Travis Bader: Miyagi. Not being Mr. Miyagi. So you were talking to the book about getting kind of paraded around afterwards, kind of like a bit of a circus show and everyone was interested. And I think, uh, Princess Diana, you guys may have been responsible for her, um, her sleek new short swept back haircut.

[00:37:40] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. I get it. One of the things that happened afterwards, of course, is every VIP in the country Wanted, um, the special day out to visit the special air service and see how they trained and functioned. And so, um, King Charles now Prince Charles then and, and lady Diana, uh, Spencer, his wife, princess Diana, they, uh, they came to visit one day and, uh, we said, okay, look, you know, um, would you like to drive?

[00:38:06] Robin Horsfall: The rain drove us up to the building. We'll throw the ladders up and do our pretend assault on the, on the building. Um, you know, we've gotten some black overalls and, um, you know, they, they, and off they did. But unbeknownst to us, before she drove the vehicle up, Princess Diana undid the window slightly to let some air into the window.

[00:38:26] Robin Horsfall: So when the flashbangs went off, the pyrotechnics set light to the lacquer on her hair. So one of our, one of my friends. Saw that, you know, her hair was burning, so he opened the door, pulled her out, slapped her around the head, put the flames out. I thought, I'll have a little bit of that, you know, join in.

[00:38:44] Robin Horsfall: You don't get a chance to slap a princess every day. And, um, we put the, we put the flames out, you know, her hair was singed, but she wasn't burned on the skin. But it was a, you know, a bit scary for her. And, um, during the lunch break, we got a, A hairdresser from Hereford to come and tidy up her hair. And she'd had this round shaped cut up to that time.

[00:39:09] Robin Horsfall: And the next day, um, Vogue magazine, um, had the next week Vogue magazine had photographs of princess Diana's amazing new page boy haircut with the trimmed back sides. 

[00:39:21] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[00:39:21] Robin Horsfall: And, um, everybody went wild and women all over the world copied it 

[00:39:26] Travis Bader: and 

[00:39:26] Robin Horsfall: they never realized that haircut was courtesy of the special air service.

[00:39:29] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, 

[00:39:30] Travis Bader: I thought that was a pretty funny anecdote. Yeah, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't aware of a number of things. One of them, I wasn't aware that the operation had, um, on the embassy. Had a, um, it was compromised and had to start sooner than, than it was supposed to. So that was something that was new information for me.

[00:39:53] Travis Bader: One thing that I thought was really interesting was following it up. You're back with the boys, everyone's having a beer and the camaraderie that you were hoping for, you were seeing, you're writing about that. There is a lack of, um, some camaraderie that you were kind of hoping to see at that time. 

[00:40:17] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, I think when, when you select people to be individuals, uh, at the very peak of their abilities, highly, highly skilled, highly motivated with an air of paranoia that you're not allowed to fail, everybody thinks they should be in charge.

[00:40:34] Robin Horsfall: Everybody thinks they know best. Um, so. With people like that, you have to keep them incredibly busy to stop them, to stop them turning inwards upon each other when you get standard troops or even special troops like paratroopers and Marines, um, you know, they're, they're trained in the buddy buddy system, you know, always support the weakest man.

[00:40:56] Robin Horsfall: Um, but. In special forces really isn't allowed to be anybody weak. Um, and so we got back and, um, people started to criticize each other. And some of that I think was led by the fact that what we'd, I think we hoped for when we got back was some kind of unit citation, maybe a little flash. You could wear to say, you are the, you are one of the 60 guys that were in that squadron on that day and did that job.

[00:41:21] Robin Horsfall: Nothing, nothing too big deal. Just that special flash to you. But what the government did, they turned around and said, okay, here's a handful of medals given to six people. And so they had to select six people from a team that had functioned as a team, as a unit, and decide who to give them to. And of course, that created certain resentments and bad feelings.

[00:41:43] Robin Horsfall: And, um, it didn't help anybody in any shape or form in any way. And, um, it opened up a bit of a can of worms and, and, and create a few enemies that, um, in some, some people never really got over, um, they're, uh, they're a special kind that they're thoroughbreds. You know, you, you, you get a load of, you get a load of ponies and stick them in a field together, they'll run around.

[00:42:09] Robin Horsfall: You get a couple of thoroughbreds and stick a stallion in there as well, they're gonna kick shit out of each other. So, um, you've got to keep them busy, you've got to keep them running, you've got to keep them tired and fed. And, um, and, um, most of my six years, looking backwards, Awesomely busy. It never really stopped.

[00:42:27] Travis Bader: You mentioned something there about failure. And I've read in other places, your ideas on failure or not being allowed to fail, which I think resonates with today's generation as well. Can I hear your thoughts on that? 

[00:42:42] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. I mean, I've been in environments where I was inspired by people who understood.

[00:42:48] Robin Horsfall: They can help your development and help you to grow. And you learn more from failure than you ever do from success. Um, and then I had that six years where I lived in an environment where especially being a person who, um, lacked, uh, the charisma and popularity that helped, um, where, you know, it was even more important for me not to fail, 

[00:43:11] Travis Bader: because 

[00:43:11] Robin Horsfall: if I did fail, it would be used against me straight away to be no element of And so, um, What that, what that taught me was to, to make sure that I didn't put anybody else in the same position that I'd been in myself.

[00:43:28] Robin Horsfall: And I understood that failure is a necessary part of the learning process. You have to get it wrong before you get it right. And we all have to do that. And. Confusion is a natural part of the learning process as well. A lot of young people and adults, um, get to a certain point in learning where they get confused and then they convince themselves that they can't do it.

[00:43:53] Travis Bader: And 

[00:43:53] Robin Horsfall: convincing them as a teacher that this is absolutely normal and just to keep plodding forward and eventually that confusion will disappear and the process will begin and you will start to absorb the language, the skill, the ability that you're searching for. Um, so. A lot of, I mean, adversity can create character, it can create good and bad character.

[00:44:16] Robin Horsfall: Um, and we're very much creatures that love to follow a leader. And we'll imitate our leaders, we'll imitate people we admire. So if we admire a bully, we'll start to behave like a bully. And if we admire somebody who inspires us because they're the absolute opposite, what we might refer to as a hero, um, then we'll, we'll imitate that person as well.

[00:44:41] Robin Horsfall: And that's what we should all aspire to. 

[00:44:44] Travis Bader: It's interesting. You bring up the word hero. Cause when we were talking before, uh, that was one word that you don't feel comfortable with. And I guess there would be two questions. Like one, I, I, I get, I do get the sense of why. You would not feel comfortable with that.

[00:45:03] Travis Bader: You're very humble. Modest individual, but in your sense of the word hero, what would be a hero? 

[00:45:16] Robin Horsfall: A hero is somebody that willingly puts themselves into danger, um, life threatening danger, or even career threatening danger for the benefit of somebody else with no possible reward. That I think is how I regard the classical form of hero and the classical form of courage as well.

[00:45:42] Robin Horsfall: The reason I shy away from the word a lot is because it's misused. It's used about footballers. It's used about politicians. It's used about everybody that somebody wants to put on a pedestal and say, Oh, great. Wasn't this person wonderful? Um, and it may be for something as good as making a nice cake. Um, and so it dilutes the power of the word.

[00:46:09] Robin Horsfall: And, um, when I have been very kindly referred to in that way, what flashes through my head is a soccer player 

[00:46:21] Travis Bader: who 

[00:46:21] Robin Horsfall: scored a goal.

[00:46:25] Travis Bader: You spoke about Pat the cook as a bit of a revenge story. Is that something that you'd want to talk about? 

[00:46:32] Robin Horsfall: Well, yeah, I think it's, um, it was an important part of my life. Um, I was, how old would I have been? Uh, 1977. So yeah, 20. Um, I'd never been a drinker. I found very early in my life that there's two things that I couldn't do very well if I was drunk.

[00:46:51] Robin Horsfall: The first one was fight and the second one starts with F as well. And, um, so, uh, I, um, and I got drunk very quickly. He used to call me two pint Bob. So, um, I, um, I discovered cars and girls, um, which were, which far more fun and, um, and, uh, and kept myself away from, uh, the drinking parties. Um, but I was in the Kelia in Cyprus.

[00:47:22] Robin Horsfall: in 1977 and, um, I went back from the bar early, went to bed alone in a large room with about 24 beds in, and two guys came in drunk and, um, attacked me in my bed for fun, um, beat me with brim handles, attacked me with a razor, uh, broke my jaw, dislocated my jaw on the other side, broke my ribs, broke my fingers, um, broke my, um, upper bones on my cheeks, um, and, um, and then dragged me in the showers to try and get me to recover, beat me, beat me, beat my head against the tiles in the showers, threw me back in the bed bleeding and covered me with a sheet.

[00:48:07] Robin Horsfall: And when the other guys came back later that night, one of the corporals came and pulled the sheet off me because he thought I was snoring too loudly and saw the blood and the mess. And, um, I was struggling to breathe and, uh, I was taken to hospital, intubated on the way to hospital. And, um, I could pull the bruises apart on my eyes after about a week so that I could see my face, which was an oval of bruising.

[00:48:33] Robin Horsfall: And, um, uh, after six weeks, I returned back to the United Kingdom. And, um, one of the things that went through me at that time was, This will never happen to me again. Nobody will ever do this to me again. I will never give anybody the opportunity to do this to me again. And I became that archetypal vicious hit first, ask questions later person.

[00:49:01] Robin Horsfall: I never ever picked on anybody, um, for, without a good reason. I always, but there was always somebody in the military looking for trouble. And if they were looking for it, boy, boy, oh boy, I was prepared to give it to them first. Um, the two people that attacked me, one was, as you mentioned, Paddy, the cook.

[00:49:20] Robin Horsfall: And, um, he had bragged about it over the following year and I'd seen him a couple of times in town, but never an appropriate time. And after a couple of years, I caught up with him at a party and he stepped out the fire door to go to urinate and I followed him and, um, you know, he, he followed my example into hospital.

[00:49:43] Robin Horsfall: The other guy, Bill King. Bill, um, went to a mental institution, and was held there for quite a long time, and then returned to the unit, and the first thing he did was he found me, and profusely and humbly apologized to me. I wasn't quite sure what to do about that, so I sort of nodded, shook his head, and walked away, rather confused, a bit bewildered.

[00:50:09] Robin Horsfall: And life went on and we didn't see each other. And then 30 years later, I was going to a reunion in a bar in Brecon to a place called the blue bore. And a guy jumped out in the street and grabbed me. And he said, Rob, Rob, it's me, Bill. And he looked wild in the eyes. And he said, mate, mate, he said, I'm still sorry about what happened all those years ago.

[00:50:32] Robin Horsfall: I'm still sorry. I'm still sorry. I kissed him on both cheeks and said, it's all right, Bill. And I just walked down the road. And, uh, so that was, uh, I feel very good about that. I 

[00:50:44] Travis Bader: feel very good about 

[00:50:45] Robin Horsfall: that. 

[00:50:45] Travis Bader: So how do you feel from one person to the other? How did it feel when you were able to exact that revenge on the individual compared to kissing the guy on the cheek and walking away?

[00:50:58] Robin Horsfall: Well, there's a huge difference in age. But they were both very, they were both very satisfying. 

[00:51:05] Travis Bader: Excellent. So you had an interesting story of, uh, some time in the Falklands there and, uh, on Ascension Island and, uh, gearing up for a, for essentially a suicide mission. 

[00:51:22] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, we, um, up Ricardo. Our job in the Falklands was to fly into Argentina, land on a runway in two C 130 Hercules aircraft, 60 of us dismount, and then take out the Super Etendard jets that were carrying the Exocet missiles that were sinking our capital ships, destroy them, and be killed or captured.

[00:51:47] Robin Horsfall: There was no way home, there was no fuel, there was no return journey. My wife Heather was eight months pregnant with our first son, Alex, and we got as far as Ascension Islands ready to go, we got on the aircraft. And, um, Ronald Reagan put pressure on Margaret Thatcher not to extend the war onto the mainland because the main bulk of the British armed forces were doing so well and were advancing on Port Stanley.

[00:52:12] Robin Horsfall: So eventually the mission was cancelled and, um, so that we could get involved in the war before it was over. Uh, we set off to fly down and instead of going into Argentina. Uh, one of the, one of the aircraft turned around and went back 'cause a refueling nozzle bloke, uh, broke. And, um, we got there, 32 of us, and we, um, jumped out the back of the C one 30 into the sea.

[00:52:39] Robin Horsfall: And, um, the RAF had put parachutes onto containers, which were, which carried all our equipment and the parachutes came off and all our equipment went into the sea. And nearly sank our own ships. And so we got picked up from the sea, um, on board the ship. Um, all our equipment had gone to the bottom of the ocean.

[00:52:59] Robin Horsfall: We were trying to, uh, bodge together enough equipment to carry out a raiding mission on port Stanley while the paras and Marines were approaching from the other side. And, um, and the enemy surrendered. So they clearly heard that 30 members of the famous B squadron arrived in the Falklands and decided to kill it before it was too late with no kit and equipment.

[00:53:22] Robin Horsfall: Um, very scary. The fact that we were prepared to go ahead and do that mission, um, without question was, um, important, but, um, I'm glad it never happened. 

[00:53:35] Travis Bader: Yeah. I mean, there, there were times when you had voiced your, uh, Not objections, maybe concerns, maybe suggestions for other ways that things could be done.

[00:53:48] Travis Bader: How'd that go over? 

[00:53:50] Robin Horsfall: Well, when we got to Ascension islands, then the mission was delayed. We'd had time to gather more information. And we knew that we discovered that the Argentinians had surface to air missiles. On Rio Grande and Ushuaia airports. So we were asking questions like, well, how the hell are we going to fly these two aircraft onto these runways if they've got surface to air missiles?

[00:54:15] Robin Horsfall: Okay. We've got a mission to do. We're going to get off and do that mission and accept the consequences. But what's the point of even trying to, I'm going to get blown out of the sky before we even get there. Um, and, uh, Brigadier Peter de la Billia insisted that we do it his way. And we made other sensible suggestions like, look, okay, we've got to fly there.

[00:54:37] Robin Horsfall: Let's parachute in maybe a few kilometers off the target, walk onto target and hit them with, um, guided missiles from a couple of kilometers out and take out the jets that way when they're taxing, but they didn't want to hear it. So that frustrated us a great deal because. Well, we, there we were trying to improve our chances of staying alive and still carry out a successful mission, um, with no way home, but, uh, the people that were at the very top didn't want to hear it.

[00:55:06] Robin Horsfall: So we were, you know, that was forever. That was frustrating, but we were still prepared to go and do it regardless. 

[00:55:13] Travis Bader: Well, I think the most frustrating part would be, uh, Those who would turn around and say that you weren't prepared or that you was cowardice, that you're voicing these concerns. 

[00:55:23] Robin Horsfall: No. Well, um, the Billy who was, um, leaving the regiment just after the Falklands, he was no, he was going to be promoted to a major general.

[00:55:33] Robin Horsfall: And so he would no longer be part of special forces. Now, don't get me wrong. I mean, as a soldier, he was the archetypal leader and officer. Brave, stubborn, brutal, and, um, had a lot of respect. But, uh, in this particular case, you know, again, you know, but he wasn't, he, he wasn't popular. And, uh, in this particular case, he gave us damn good reason for it, mate.

[00:55:59] Robin Horsfall: I mean, a big part of that, as you say, was when we returned and we had a debrief. When you have a debrief when you get back from a mission, the purpose of that debrief is to find out how you can do it better next time, how you can improve on it, and instead of that, they just said, Oh, you guys were great.

[00:56:15] Robin Horsfall: You guys are wonderful. And then the Billy and his valedictory speech when he was leaving, he, um, he stood up and, and virtually accused us of being cowards for not wanting to do it his way. And then he told a story about a second world war major. Who had been stopped by the French resistance and told not to go down a particular road because the enemy were laying in ambush and, uh, he went anyway.

[00:56:45] Robin Horsfall: And we were expecting a punchline to this story where it was going to be, and he saved the day, but then he said, well, and he drove into the ambush and got killed. Well, we just started laughing. We just think of this ridiculous, you know, what a dumb ass. And, um, and he didn't get it, you know, he didn't get when we, and we wouldn't stop laughing.

[00:57:05] Robin Horsfall: until he got off the stage and the new his replacement stepped up at which second We went absolutely silent in respect for the new officer taking over. So it was our way of poking our finger in his face and saying, get your ass out of here. 

[00:57:19] Travis Bader: Message sent message received. You were then later put on a, uh, the Royal Marine sniper course.

[00:57:28] Travis Bader: And we're pretty happy to be put on that from what I understand was, yeah, 

[00:57:32] Robin Horsfall: yeah. I mean, the, um, the Royal Marine sniper course, the Royal Marines, um, were the only unit in the British armed forces that maintained the sniper skill qualification from the first world war onwards. Now, a lot of journalists misuse the word sniper.

[00:57:50] Robin Horsfall: Um, they think anybody with a, with some kind of small arm shooting from a distance is, uh, is, uh, they call them a sniper. They're not, uh, initially they're a gunman and if they're good at shooting, they're a marksman, but they're not a sniper. A sniper is an expert in field craft, an expert in camouflage, judging distance, map reading, air photography, recognizing the relief of the ground, being able to move invisibly, being able to shoot.

[00:58:18] Robin Horsfall: from an invisible position and then disappear and get away without being seen, be able to stalk an opponent without being seen, get close to an enemy and get away again. So the elements of fieldcraft are at its absolute peak with, um, with a sniper. So a sniper is all of those things. He's the absolute peak of an infantry soldier's fieldcraft skills.

[00:58:41] Robin Horsfall: And so it's misused. The word's misused a lot of the time. I. wanted to go on that course. So, um, and, um, I'd only been home from the Falklands a few weeks and thought, great, I've got a new baby boy. I'll get a rest. Nope. Straight down to Royal Marines, Limpston and on this course. And, um, yeah, it was, it was absolutely incredible.

[00:59:05] Robin Horsfall: And, um, it was, uh, uh, one of the things that I'm, I'm as proud of passing that with their two grades, the top grade was marksman and the second grade was sniper. Four of the 12 on the course passed it. And I was one of the two that got sniper marksman. And, um, you know, and I thought, right, I'm coming back with this.

[00:59:28] Robin Horsfall: I'm coming back to this qualification. You can't take it away from me. The rural Marines gave it to me. I'll get my promotion. Didn't happen. Um, because, um, somebody turned around, you didn't like me and said, oh, well, that's just coursemanship. Whatever that means. 

[00:59:44] Travis Bader: Yeah. Whatever that means. 

[00:59:46] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, 

[00:59:47] Travis Bader: well, didn't it turn out that you were sent on that course, maybe not as a prize, but as a, uh, in the hopes that you would fail and that'd be a excuse to RT, RTU you?

[00:59:59] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. Well, the, um, I had a, I had a disagreement with a Sergeant when I was a trooper. And, um, he'd taken me off, uh, uh, an air air fire control, of course, that I wanted to do on the grounds that I wouldn't be there and I was doing something else. And the fact was that I thought he'd made a mistake. And so, um, I complained and said, look, the course starts on Monday and I'm back on Friday.

[01:00:24] Robin Horsfall: And, um, he said, well, the job is done now. And so it's not going to change. So when I arrived back on the Friday, I bumped into the two I see in my company and he said, what's wrong with you? You've got a face like thunder. And I told him. And, uh, he said, you want me to do something? I said, no, no. I said, just make things worse, but he ignored that.

[01:00:43] Robin Horsfall: And he went and, uh, he went and, uh, looked into it and discovered that this guy had lied to the sergeant major to check, get, get his own guy on the course. And, um, two years later, he was the squadron sergeant major and he made it his purpose in life. To get me thrown out and uh, they sent me on the Arabic course to a lot of people failed it.

[01:01:07] Robin Horsfall: I passed it. They put me on the Royal Marine Sniper course. I passed it. They put me on the Mountain Guides course to Chamonix, which two year course. And when they told me, I thought, great, I'd love to do that. And they took me off it. So, um, you know, um, what can you do? Um, I actually believe at that time that all I had to do was keep doing my job.

[01:01:30] Robin Horsfall: Better and better and better. And eventually it would be noticed, 

[01:01:33] Travis Bader: but, 

[01:01:34] Robin Horsfall: um, in an institution, it just takes one person, one rank higher than you, and they can screw your whole future up. And, and he succeeded in doing that. 

[01:01:44] Travis Bader: Looking back now, knowing what you know now, uh, are there different ways that you would have approached that?

[01:01:53] Robin Horsfall: Um, I got into the SAS when I was 21. And one thing Bosley, the clerk in the office was right about was that I was too young. Um, by the time I was 27, I had a little bit more wisdom about keeping my mouth shut in the right circumstances and not voicing an opinion no matter how true I knew it to be. I still struggle with that today.

[01:02:21] Robin Horsfall: I'm still a great fan of the truth, but I like to be able to support it from a position of verifiable authority. But, um, you know, the age and wisdom. Uh, there are times when it's, it's not going to hurt you to be diplomatically silent for a while and find an alternative route to get to the same place. Um, so, but I was, I was very young and, um, that naivety, uh, played against me as well.

[01:02:49] Robin Horsfall: Um, but, um, I purchased my discharge from the army when I was 27, thinking that I was going to be in for 22 years, I'd done 12 years and, um, it turned out to be one of the best. Best things that could have ever happened to me looking back. So something bad happens in your life that can end up being a very positive thing.

[01:03:10] Robin Horsfall: Later on, um, leaving the military after 12 years freed me up to explore my true potential to do other things, to have different experiences. And go in different directions. And I don't think if I'd stayed in the military for 22, 24 years, um, that I would have achieved as much. 

[01:03:32] Travis Bader: I agree. I agree. I think you would have been stifled.

[01:03:35] Travis Bader: Hmm. Um, so from there you went on and did some bodyguard work and a bit of mercenary work. And that's, uh, um, an interesting thing to read about is, um, there was, One thing that I read and I thought was really interesting and it says, I was never quite the same again after Mozambique, I felt that I'd been tested and I wished hardly that I hadn't.

[01:04:06] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. Um, Mozambique was a infantry war. We had no support arms, no air cover, no insurance, no backup. Uh, we were taking men into combat. We're supposed to be in there as instructors, but you're in the war zone. I ended up being company commanders and I saw and experienced some pretty terrible things and when I came home, I was home within 24 hours, 48 hours.

[01:04:39] Robin Horsfall: So you're going from a place where children are starving, where people can be killed for a bunch of bananas. Where a truck rolls over and 40 of your men are dead in one moment simply because the driver made a mistake. Where you've got yourself into very very dangerous situations out of bravado and stupidity and um, wished you hadn't.

[01:05:06] Robin Horsfall: And then 24 hours later you're home and you're looking at a video and your wife's got a string outside the window with welcome home daddy on it and she's playing a video showing you Christmas. The Christmas you missed with the kids. Eating and wasting loads of food and toys lying all over the place.

[01:05:28] Robin Horsfall: And you're not laughing and smiling. Um, you have this contrast of experiences of going from this place to this place, to a place where people are unhappy because. Their nanny took the day off and they're traumatized. Um, and the milkman didn't deliver the milk, so they're extremely upset. Um, and, um, you haven't had time to make that transition and it came out as anger.

[01:05:58] Robin Horsfall: and disinterest and it was she recognized it straight away and I didn't but um our life led to a crisis situation and um fortunately I'd got counseling and I must have been the counselor's uh favorite um subject because he would start the clock and he got 45 minutes and I would talk like a runaway gun for 45 minutes and it's time up Robin you know let's have a quick chat and off you go And after 12 weeks, I realized, yeah, okay.

[01:06:36] Robin Horsfall: The world shit, the bad things happen and, um, you can't change the world, but you can change yourself. And so I set about changing myself and rebuilding my, uh, family life and, um, and with Heather's help, um, succeeded and, um, as there's a lot of lessons, uh, to learn from that for lots of people who haven't necessarily been to war.

[01:07:03] Robin Horsfall: But they've had some very upsetting experiences in their life, and they want somebody to blame, and sometimes there just isn't anybody to blame. I love that old American, um, t shirt that sold billions, uh, which was, uh, shit happens, and it does. And, um, and sometime in your lives, there will be some kind of tragedy, unfortunately, uh, even if it's the natural death of your parents and you, you have to accept that and acceptance is a word we don't use enough of.

[01:07:37] Robin Horsfall: Sometimes you just, it just happens. 

[01:07:40] Travis Bader: Did you come to that conclusion on your own, or was that something that the counselor was able to elicit out of you? 

[01:07:48] Robin Horsfall: No, I think the counselor just let me burn it out. He let me talk it out. He let me figure it out on my own. All he was was a sounding board to let me go.

[01:07:59] Robin Horsfall: He, I'm sure he got subjects where he needed to prompt something. He needed to light a fuse. With me, the fuse was burning when I walked through the door. Um, all he had to do was just let it burn and give it a place to go, you know? And, um, and, um, yeah, sometimes you've just got to unload. You just got to let it all go, uh, talk it all out with somebody who's not going to offer an opinion back, who's not got a vested interest in your, uh, opinion and, um, and, uh, and let it, and, and allow, allow you to, to release everything.

[01:08:35] Robin Horsfall: And when it's all out there, you spilled your guts all over the floor. You can see what you've been eating. 

[01:08:42] Travis Bader: I like that analogy. You know, I just made that 

[01:08:44] Robin Horsfall: one 

[01:08:44] Travis Bader: up. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. Um, you know, a lot of people get stuck in this, uh, process of, uh, basically wearing or identifying with whatever the issue is, that's affecting them.

[01:08:58] Travis Bader: They're being afflicted with in the moment. And there's a lot of counselors and psychologists who, uh, aren't brave enough to, uh, help break that cycle. Rather, they will just have them go over and over and over again through it, because there's sort of a cathartic process in the, uh, in these meetings and, you know, there's money that comes from each one of these meetings and, yeah, um, I don't agree 

[01:09:23] Robin Horsfall: with some of that because I think sometimes it's like picking a scab.

[01:09:27] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. You just keep making it bleed you just keep making it bleed 

[01:09:30] Travis Bader: right 

[01:09:32] Robin Horsfall: yeah um which is different from what i'm talking about i just let me just let me um heal myself um because again it's back to that thing i said at the beginning you know only you can change yourself 

[01:09:47] Travis Bader: it's 

[01:09:47] Robin Horsfall: a bit like you know a guy who's an alcoholic or a drug addict.

[01:09:51] Robin Horsfall: Um, you know, first of all, you have to accept that you are the problem and then you can deal with it, whether it's PTSD, whether it's alcohol, whether it's drugs, whether it's violence, whatever it is, you have to start with you. I mean, I do counsel some individuals privately, uh, without payment who are usually military veterans, but not always.

[01:10:13] Robin Horsfall: Sometimes they're cancer victims because I've had cancer. And, um, and the first thing I say to them often is, well, what are you going to do about it? So you place the owner strictly on them straight away because people tend to wear a badge of victimhood and say, uh, you know, it's your job to help me. Okay.

[01:10:36] Robin Horsfall: Well, yeah, maybe, uh, maybe it's my job to help you. Um, but providing you start by helping yourself. You start by taking responsibility. You start by getting a job, by getting out of bed in the morning, by doing what you need to do, and I'll help you then, but I'm not going to get you out of bed. 

[01:10:58] Travis Bader: Yeah. There's nothing you can actually do to help somebody.

[01:11:00] Travis Bader: You can lead them by example, but they have to help themselves. And once they, um, so what do you do now to deal with. When the demons come up, when things are getting difficult, what do you do now to deal with it? 

[01:11:14] Robin Horsfall: Uh, uh, sometimes I, sometimes I, I, I have moments where I'm just watching TV or doing something innocuous and I'll have a cry.

[01:11:26] Robin Horsfall: Um, not a sob, but just, you know, just a moment of welling up. It'll pass away. Um, but, uh, I don't have many demons. I think I've exercised most of them. Um, I have a great wife. Um, I have an amazing family. I'm the oldest surviving member of my family now. And, um, and consequently, um, there's always somebody that's got a problem that they want.

[01:11:53] Robin Horsfall: They either want advice or they want money and I'm supposed to provide one of the two. Um, so that keeps me busy and it keeps me feeling useful as well. Um, I've got four generations in the house at the moment. Um, my daughter, my granddaughter and my granddaughter's son. Um, and they're going back next week and it's been fun having him here while she had the baby, but, um, uh, the house will seem empty, um, next Tuesday when they've gone, um, until.

[01:12:26] Robin Horsfall: Until the next, um, until the next member of the family decides it's time to, to turn up at the house. And, um, I hope it's not too long in between because, you know, family is everything. When you get to a certain point in your life, uh, family is everything. And if you are not fortunate enough to have family, then compensate with friends.

[01:12:48] Travis Bader: At what point in your life did you truly realize that? I 

[01:12:51] Robin Horsfall: don't think I realized it fully. I'm still learning and discovering, uh, new things about myself and about life. Um, so it's a process. Um, the Japanese used to say that you're not really a man until you get past the age of 40. Um, and you've got to get past the age of 40 before you understand what that means.

[01:13:14] Robin Horsfall: Well, I'm 67 now. 

[01:13:16] Travis Bader: Yes. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should talk about? 

[01:13:26] Robin Horsfall: Well, I spent, um, I spent 30 years of my life teaching children, martial arts. I mentioned that earlier and the, the karate was just the catalyst that allowed me to teach. It was the teaching that was the joy. It was the imparting knowledge to others.

[01:13:43] Robin Horsfall: That's the joy. And, um, I was taught to teach when I was a boy soldier, six months of teaching quotas. And, um, and I, it was vocational to me to stand in front of people, to impart knowledge, to help them, to benefit them, to train them with the kids. It was about, uh, teaching them to be strong and confident and, uh, and kind.

[01:14:09] Robin Horsfall: And capable of defending themselves, which made them, um, able to stand up for their opinions in a much better way as they grew up. Um, we taught the children to teach. So rather than just teach them a skill, we taught them to teach the skill. Because if you teach, you understand the subject, you might know how to shoot a rifle, but can you teach somebody else how to shoot a rifle?

[01:14:34] Robin Horsfall: If you can and take that responsibility, now you really understand the rifle. Um, it's the same in everything in life. And we would take four year olds, and when they'd been around six weeks or so, and a new kid arrived, we'd let the four year and six week kid show the new kid how to do certain things. So they'd pair off.

[01:14:54] Robin Horsfall: Because you learn a hell of a lot more from your big brother than you ever did from your school teacher. Uh huh. And, um, so teaching is, uh, is, is, is a wonderful, is, is the best form of learning ever. I, I broke my neck when I was 54. I couldn't carry on teaching martial arts. And so I went to university as an undergraduate at the age of 56 and did, uh, uh, And, um, English literature and graduated when I was 59.

[01:15:25] Robin Horsfall: Um, I got cancer when I was 60, bladder cancer, and I had to have a major operation and they took away my bladder and prostate and lymph nodes. And, um, And there's even a sunny side to that because I've got this bag now and I never have to get up for a pee in the night 

[01:15:42] Travis Bader: and 

[01:15:45] Robin Horsfall: men of a certain age will know exactly what I'm talking about.

[01:15:48] Robin Horsfall: Well, I've got this two liter bag that goes down the side of the bed and I, I never have to get up for a pee. I can stay in bed and watch TV in the morning. So there's even a good side to that. So, um. A lot of fighting scared the book you showed there is one of six and it goes up to about the age of forty five.

[01:16:11] Robin Horsfall: But i'm sometimes thinking if i can find the time that i should write a sequel um for the forty five to sixty seven period which has a whole new range of stories but i've got so many things i want to do. 

[01:16:27] Travis Bader: How did you break your neck. 

[01:16:30] Robin Horsfall: I was training with my oldest son, Alex, um, karate training with my oldest son, Alex, and he was holding a big, heavy impact pad for me.

[01:16:38] Robin Horsfall: And he's a big man. And, um, and I, I was showing him this, uh, very powerful punch. And, um, he, uh, I was looking at the class and what I should have done. I should have looked. At the target and then hit it so my neck was in the correct position, but the head was still here talking to the class when I hit this thing.

[01:16:58] Robin Horsfall: And, uh, when you've developed, like, like professional boxing, when you've developed the punch to a degree and your body and all your applied physics of your, of your physique are in exactly the right place. You're developing about one and a half tons of impact into two square inches of two knuckles. And, um, everything's set right, all that impact, all that, um, kinetic energy is, is trans, is transmitted in, all that potential energy is transmitted into the target.

[01:17:28] Robin Horsfall: Well, my neck was in the wrong position, and so some of it came out up here on C5 and broke one of the, broke one of the, um, Processes on my, on my vertebra, and I wasn't paralyzed, but, um, my neck beat is very, very weak. It's still very weak, and I, I lost some of the feeling in my left hand and, um, and, uh, so I had to take a new direction in life.

[01:17:52] Robin Horsfall: There's no good sitting around going, oh, I was a great martial artist once upon a time and I had a thousand students. And, oh, poor me. I just, okay, what can I do? Well, I can't jump around and I can't leap out of buildings and I can't, you know, stand on one leg anymore because my balance goes so, but I can write 

[01:18:09] Travis Bader: and I can 

[01:18:10] Robin Horsfall: speak and so I'm, um, I do corporate talks and talks for colleges and talks for kids.

[01:18:17] Robin Horsfall: About my personal experiences, about leadership, about overcoming adversity. Um, if anybody ever wants me in Canada, you know where I am 

[01:18:25] Travis Bader: and, 

[01:18:25] Robin Horsfall: uh, and, um, and, um, so I just, I, I still like being up there in front of everybody because teaching is essentially singing and dancing, you know, and, uh, your, your best teachers were the ones that entertained you and the subjects you loved best at school were the ones that came from the best teachers, not because they were the best subjects.

[01:18:49] Travis Bader: Through teaching, you've enabled the children to have a voice and you've basically become the mentor that you were looking for as a child. 

[01:18:58] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's, I think, I think you put the finger right on the button there. Um, that's, and I've never ever thought of that to be honest, but yeah, I think that's exactly what I am, the person that I didn't have.

[01:19:17] Travis Bader: Well, there's a, there's a lot more that I'd love to chat with you about, and I'm sure we'll chat more in the future, but, um, maybe that's a good place for us to, to wrap this podcast up. Um, unless there's any last words you'd like to say. 

[01:19:32] Robin Horsfall: Yeah. Anybody wants to find me? RobinHorsfall. com. Let's do the advertising every little 

[01:19:38] Travis Bader: counts.

[01:19:39] Travis Bader: What I'm going to do is I'm going to put links in the bio and I'm going to put links in the description and, um, you know, like I say, I've got, I'll hold them up here. So I've got fighting scared. Couldn't put that one down. Uh, read that one in, in no time flat. We've got, uh, the words of the wise old paratrooper, more words of the wise old paratrooper, last words of the wise old paratrooper.

[01:20:03] Travis Bader: And I've, uh, started going through them. They're easy reads that are full of very, some, a lot of humor, some great wisdom. And it's something that, uh, will take more than one read to actually properly absorb. And I guess there's a couple more books that, uh, uh, that I, 

[01:20:21] Robin Horsfall: There's warrior poet soldier songs, which is an illustrated book of my poetry.

[01:20:25] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:20:26] Robin Horsfall: Um, which is very academic and, um, illustrated and I'm very proud of that. But people don't buy poetry. It's a, so it's a labor of love. They quote it, but they, they don't buy it. And, um, my most recent one is Slava Ukraini, who no shares. Uh, which is about the first two years of the Russian Ukraine war.

[01:20:45] Robin Horsfall: And yeah, and that's my, that's my most recent one. Yeah. 

[01:20:49] Travis Bader: And you're pretty, you're pretty vocal and on a lot of world issues. When are you going to start your own podcast? 

[01:20:55] Robin Horsfall: Yeah, I've, um, I've got all the gear. Um, I've had builders in my house since we moved in two years ago. Um, and, um, I've got my, Daughter in the, in the attic room at the moment, which is going to be the podcast broadcasting studio.

[01:21:12] Travis Bader: There it is. And, 

[01:21:13] Robin Horsfall: um, it's, uh, it's another one of those things on the list. 

[01:21:17] Travis Bader: You know, that was the one thing when I went through all of this stuff, I thought Robin's going to start his own podcast and it's going to be hugely successful. And I'm glad, I'm glad you're doing that. Robin, thank you so much for being on the Silvercore podcast.

[01:21:30] Travis Bader: I really enjoyed this. 

[01:21:32] Robin Horsfall: Thanks, Travis. You're a great interviewer.