Silvercore Podcast 151 Megan Hine

📚 Megans Website: https://meganhine.com/

🌍 Follow Megan: https://www.instagram.com/megan_hine/

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Joined today by one of the world's top survival experts. She's an expedition leader, author of Mind of a Survivor, and a key figure behind the scenes of some of the biggest survival shows in the world. She has a deep understanding of persevering in the wild, combined with a unique insight into the human mind.

[00:00:29] Travis Bader: Which allows her to help others who work at high risk and trauma filled environments. Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Megan Heine. 

[00:00:38] Megan Hine: That's quite the introduction. Hi, Travis. It's great to be with you. It's a 

[00:00:41] Travis Bader: shame we didn't 

[00:00:42] Megan Hine: quite manage to do in person though, did we? We've like, it almost happened just before Christmas.

[00:00:47] Travis Bader: So close, so close. And you know, I, I gotta be honest, I have wanted to have you on the podcast for a very long time. And when you and I were working on that Fox show, Extracted Together, I thought, oh, this is perfect. You're up in Whistler working on this new show. I'm up there. Surely we're going to be able to make something Connect there, but that was, that was my first experience working on a larger film production.

[00:01:13] Travis Bader: And, um, yeah, um, apparently I misunderstood the, uh, the time allocation required to work on these things. How was it for you? 

[00:01:23] Megan Hine: Oh, it was, it was brilliant. It was a really, it was a great experience. And yeah, I'd love to hear your, your side of it as well. Cause I, our paths didn't quite cross, uh, in the fields.

[00:01:33] Megan Hine: But yeah, for me it was the, cause I was actually on screen, um, on this one. Um, in, yeah, you know, in a role of, uh, what, head of extraction. So going in to rescue people out of the terrain, um, when things happen, which was. I'm usually behind the scenes and I'm usually involved like right from the very start and all the setup and all the pieces of the puzzle and things coming together.

[00:01:53] Megan Hine: So I arrived when the puzzle was pretty much fully formed. So it was quite unusual experience for me. Whereas I think for yourself, you were involved right at the very start, weren't you? 

[00:02:02] Travis Bader: Well, yes. At the, at an earlier point, I got a phone call from, um, well, actually it was Nikki, Nikki van Schindel. And she's the past, yes.

[00:02:11] Travis Bader: Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah, she, uh, she was one of my earlier guests here on the podcast and, uh, she and I, uh, have a lot in common, same favorite childhood book. And, uh, I actually had a copy of it in here with her when, uh, when she came in to chat. Um, but she says, Trav, you know, we got this show. And there might be some hunting on here and the people they're from California and they don't know the rules and the laws.

[00:02:39] Travis Bader: Can you, can you kind of point them in the right direction? I said, sure, no problem. So I introduced them to some of my contacts in government and the people who they need to talk to and they come to me and they say, well, you know, I think we need to get all of our contestants licensed. Okay, sure. That's something we do.

[00:02:56] Travis Bader: Yeah. We can put a course on for you. Not a problem, but, but there's, there's a catch, uh, the. They got to come in one at a time. They can't see each other. They can't do it in a group. I'm like, Holy crow. This is going to make things interesting. So I said, tell you what, in the interest of expediency and in the interest of getting this, uh, done free, you know, why don't they do BC's online course, which.

[00:03:20] Travis Bader: My company made, uh, why don't you do BCs online course, and then we'll go through one at a time and they can challenge a test afterwards and they would take them down. Some of them blindfolded, some of them they're taken through the hallways. And yeah, that, that was a different experience because when you're talking to these people, of course.

[00:03:39] Travis Bader: The, uh, production company doesn't tell me anything. They won't tell me the name of the show. They were not allowed to say anything to the contestants. And so the contestants are coming in and they're saying things to me like, oh, when my dad comes through, you're going to like him. I'm like, I don't see your dad on the list here, but okay, like I'm trying to piece things together.

[00:03:58] Travis Bader: Finally, I just gave in and I called up a buddy of mine who works in transport. And I said, what show am I working on? What's going on? And he knew everything. So, uh, 

[00:04:08] Megan Hine: They're mad. These like, these big shows are absolutely crazy because there's so many facets that, um, that go into making up a show like this.

[00:04:17] Megan Hine: Um, and it's like, I think like the viewer doesn't always appreciate actually just the logistics and all the permitting and things that go into it. Um, I, cause I've been working in the industry now for almost 20 years and it's, it's changed so much. It's like when I first started. Like, it was, like, kind of full on, like, cowboy style, like, you go in there, you did whatever you wanted, like, permits and things weren't such a big issue, budgets were bigger, time frames were longer, um, and it was just, you'd just go out into these environments and just have a laugh and just figure it out on the fly and kind of wing it, whereas, like, now, like, every single aspect of it, like, you're saying, like, from the hunting through to the technology, uh, through every single aspect of it is just so, so well thought out, So prepared.

[00:05:01] Megan Hine: And it's just insane that you get these large numbers of people that come together. Cause I think on this show, there was like over 300 people involved. Um, you get all these people that come together and they're like, never met. A lot of them never met before, never worked together, come, come together, make this magic and then disappear off again, never to come back together.

[00:05:19] Megan Hine: Well, 

[00:05:21] Travis Bader: I look at, I'm like, I don't know how you guys are going to do this. I'm listening behind the scenes. You're like, oh, we have to do swim testing. They're going to be out of the lake and they got to do, and all these different testing features. And they have to take them one at a time, test them individually, have the oversight.

[00:05:35] Travis Bader: I'm like, I don't know if you're going to be able to pull this off in time, but it'll be interesting to see what you do. And sure enough, they do. And it all comes together in the end. 

[00:05:43] Megan Hine: Every single time it's like, I've been doing some really, like doing some really big shows actually the past four or five years.

[00:05:49] Megan Hine: I used to do like a lot more expeditions, super remote, um, kind of very agile shows, but somehow I ended up doing these like big adventure, uh, sort of. Competition shows. Um, and it's like every single one I've worked on, it's like, you kind of, you come aboard and just like, there is absolutely no way that we're going to be able to pull this off in like the weeks or the couple of months that we've got here and every time, like we managed to do it, which doesn't really help our case because it means that like the next time they're just like, no, so you pulled it off, you don't need any more time.

[00:06:21] Megan Hine: You can have less time and less budget. Oh, totally. 

[00:06:24] Travis Bader: Yeah. Typical union environment type mentality. Right. Um, so. How did you get into this? You've been doing this for over 20 years now. How did, how did this all get rolling? 

[00:06:36] Megan Hine: Uh, so I, I guess going back to like childhood and, um, my dad, um, was, was originally a geologist and did a lot of expeditions, um, this way, way before I was born, um, did a lot of expeditions, loved rocks.

[00:06:52] Megan Hine: So all our family holidays, uh, were to go and look at rocks, get up close and personal. Um, he did a lot of climbing, so we did a lot of climbing, so it was like touching the rocks, digging the rocks out, hunting for fossils, going out, um, camping, um, with my parents and out in the mountains, like typically around the UK.

[00:07:09] Megan Hine: I'm British, I'm from North Wales, um, and so a lot of our family holidays were into the mountains in the UK, um, and exploring, and I never knew that there was a career outside of academia. And I guess because I was the oldest of four, it was just assumed that I would follow in my parents footsteps and go into teaching or doctoring or something, get a proper job.

[00:07:36] Megan Hine: And it just it just kind of never never really happened. I got I had a place to go into the military. But I thought I'll take a year out after I finished school, I had this place to go into. officer training in the UK, um, I thought I'd take a year out and go, uh, off to New Zealand, which is somewhere I'd always wanted to go to.

[00:07:55] Megan Hine: I think, similar to you and Nicky being inspired by a book, I was inspired by this book called The Land of the Long White Cloud, which was 

[00:08:01] Travis Bader: given 

[00:08:01] Megan Hine: to me by my, um, by some cousins that lived in Australia, and it was this beautiful book, illustrated book, of like Maori culture and their mythology and folklore.

[00:08:12] Megan Hine: Um, and I just, like, I'd hide under the covers at night and read this book. Um, and, I just, I just wanted to go to New Zealand. So as soon as I could, um, I figured I was going to take a year out before going back to the military and go to New Zealand, uh, end up on, working on South Island. Stroke of fate, luck, in being in the right place at the right time, ended up doing an apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival and, um, taking people out into the, into the mountains.

[00:08:39] Megan Hine: Um, there, and I suddenly realized that there's actually, you know, there's a career in this. Um, so that's kind of where it all started. 

[00:08:45] Travis Bader: And then at some point you were working for a company and they said, uh, we want, we want your help on a, uh, this little known film set, this guy by the name of. Mr. Grylls, 

[00:08:57] Megan Hine: that was like, that was super random.

[00:09:02] Megan Hine: Like, cause I was, um, so I, when I came back from New Zealand, um, I was, I, I decided I wasn't going to go into the military. I actually ended up doing a degree in outdoor studies, um, which was basically three years of climbing on a student loan. And, um, it was, it was awesome. It was so much fun. I spent my second year actually out in the Czech Republic.

[00:09:21] Megan Hine: I did an exchange out there. 

[00:09:23] Travis Bader: Oh, I love it out there. 

[00:09:24] Megan Hine: Oh man, it's like, it's so wild, and uh, I was, I went out with a friend of mine, we bought this like, really shitty old bus, and we converted the back of it, and we're like, living in the back of this in the middle of Prague, um, and we, there was like a language issue, and we, they weren't really expecting us, they didn't really know what to do with us, so we just fucked off to Austria and went mountaineering for, for months.

[00:09:46] Megan Hine: Beautiful! Yeah, it was, it was amazing, it was such an amazing trip, it was a very formative trip. Um, I, like, we, towards, like, I ended up falling into, like, a big crevasse and we had a bit of an epic, so we thought we should probably, at this point, go back and actually do some studying. So I went back, um, um, and ended up doing, uh, that's kind of, I suppose, where my interest in, like, the psychology and philosophy of why people go into the outdoors.

[00:10:12] Megan Hine: kind of came from, uh, because they do, although their, their physical side of things, so like our outdoor adventure pursuit sort of side of lessons were hardcore, like super fucking hardcore, um, in how they bring that on, uh, but then on the flip side, they had this really beautiful, like, philosophy and you'd sit down and you'd talk through why people would go into the outdoors and the psychology behind it and our connection with the natural world.

[00:10:40] Megan Hine: Which was something I'd never really kind of thought about, uh, before. Um, and then I came back to the UK and ended up, um, doing an apprenticeship, a three year apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival. Um, and I kind of picked up my, sort of, British mountaineering qualifications, climbing qualifications as well.

[00:10:57] Megan Hine: Um, and I, I guess I was just in this really kind of unique Um, position that I'd got this sort of random collection of qualifications and experience. I'd started leading, um, expeditions out to the Himalaya. This was like in my early twenties, um, as well. And just this combination at some point I was working for a company that had just taken on the consultancy for, Um, Bear Grylls Man vs.

[00:11:23] Megan Hine: Wild, like his, Bear Grylls original shows, the ones that made him really big. And I think the first season, like, it had just been a bunch of guys having a laugh out in the field and there was, like, stories of bear suits and Man vs. Wild. And all this stuff just like got out into the press because nobody knew how big it was going to be.

[00:11:43] Megan Hine: Right. Yeah. So like, right, okay, second season we need to lock this down and we need to do this properly so we'll bring in a team. Um, so I was actually hired originally to, um, to rig the stunts. So build, like, design and build the, the rigging challenges. Uh, and I went along and joined the first show that I ever did was the only ever urban show he did.

[00:12:05] Megan Hine: Right. Oh, we're filming it. Poland and Gdansk in the, the dockyard there, which was just nuts. Um, and then I, I just kind of stuck, um, as part of the team, um, and was part of his team, um, in between working on other shows and expeditions, um, you know, for the next sort of 14 years. 

[00:12:22] Travis Bader: Well, you know, I, I met him a number of years ago and, uh, what, what do you say to me?

[00:12:27] Travis Bader: He says, they should call me bear. I'm six foot, 650 pounds, big, big beard standing beside him. Like the TV makes, makes the perspective off, but he's a small guy, you know, some of the toughest people I know are just these, these diminutive. Small people, they can less injuries, less weight to, uh, to lug around.

[00:12:46] Travis Bader: And they just, and that mindset as well. The mindset is huge for the toughness, but he says something about you. He says, uh, uh, 99 percent of the people out there, you are tougher than 99 percent of the. Well, 99 percent of the men he knows, but 99 percent of the people are there. You're tougher than that was kind of a neat compliment.

[00:13:06] Megan Hine: That, that was an awesome, that was an awesome compliment. Yeah. That was, um, that was really cool. And I think that's something like with bear is that he's very loyal to his team. Um, and it's, that's how he and his shows have been so successful because they're really agile shows. So, you know, with the, when it got to the sort of.

[00:13:25] Megan Hine: the Running Wilds that we did and I, I did like six full seasons of the Running Wilds, which is where uh, he's going out and he's accompanied by, you know, usually a major celebrity or politician, um, as a guest. Um, and you know, there's all this stuff about it being fake and all of this, and like, it isn't.

[00:13:43] Megan Hine: It's like, you know, we genuinely, at the start of the day, Um, the cameras switch on and they don't switch off until they're tucked up in their shelters. Uh, and the journey's linear, so they're constantly moving through the environment. The guest, you know, is genuinely on a journey with Bear. Um, and as a crew, you know, we're having to adapt to that.

[00:14:02] Megan Hine: So, uh, often I'm, you know, attached to, I've got a camera operator attached to me. I usually work with, like, the main camera operator. So that I can then move my safety team around the terrain and I've got a good visual on where everybody is, uh, and then we're, you know, we're, we're moving through the terrain, uh, with, with him and his guest.

[00:14:19] Megan Hine: And it's, you know, it's very agile, very dynamic, very real risks and, uh, super exciting. 

[00:14:26] Travis Bader: Well, one of the things I think appeals to the audience and probably appeals, I'm going to put. Myself out there and guess it probably appeals to you is the psychology of the individuals when they go out into the wild and they have a formulaic approach to the, uh, you know, uh, the Bear Grylls shows as they go through, because it works where they take somebody out, they push their boundaries.

[00:14:47] Travis Bader: There's a shared adversity. There's a time to debrief over a cup of tea. And the insights that people share in these, these moments is, uh, It's really, really cool there. You talk about the psychology behind why people go outside. Why do people go outside? 

[00:15:09] Megan Hine: Oh, well, I think that there's so many different levels to this and layers to it.

[00:15:13] Megan Hine: Um, but on a very fundamental level, it's our natural habitat. Um, I, I'm a true believer in the fact that we haven't evolved to live in this modern world. Like we. have adapted. We haven't necessarily evolved and we're incredible at adaptation. Like, you know, that's what defines us as a species. We're absolutely phenomenal at adapting to new environments, new situations, new scenarios.

[00:15:38] Megan Hine: But it doesn't mean that we like it or our brains can cope with it. Um, and we look around at the modern world around us and the fast pace it moves at. And we look at our like primitive survival mechanisms that are built in us to keep us safe, that are in all animals, um, you know, the limbic system, that fight, flight, freeze response that like lives within our brain.

[00:15:59] Megan Hine: Um, and it's like, it's incredibly powerful. Um, and its primary role is to keep us safe. So it's constantly scanning the environment around us, looking for threats. Um, and that was. at a time when, you know, we had predators, uh, like, say, two tigers or bear that would have, you know, that would have been hunting us, potentially, as we were quite vulnerable without our, like, uh, without any fur and claws and big teeth and things.

[00:16:23] Megan Hine: Um, but then We've then created this modern world very, very fast, and the brain, that part of the brain, that survival part of the brain, can't differentiate between real versus perceived threat. And you're seeing triggering posts on social media triggers us in the same way as in the same flood of chemicals as if that saber toothed tiger was stalking us.

[00:16:47] Megan Hine: So I think for us actually just going back into into nature And I think this is where social media, I'd be interested, you know, to hear your view on this, but I think there's a social media move of like extreme adventuring, like going up Everest, going to the South Pole, going on these like, like massive expeditions, um, that, you know, it's the minority of people or adventurers going and doing these things.

[00:17:09] Megan Hine: And there's a big push that that's what we should be doing on adventure, but that's not where like the power of nature for healing, the therapeutic applications. Come in, it was like literally going in your lunch break and sitting in the local park or going for a walk in the woods with your kids and reconnecting, uh, with this natural world around us.

[00:17:28] Megan Hine: That is very much a part of, of who we are. 

[00:17:32] Travis Bader: Yeah, I believe that. I, and I guess the idea behind social media pushing these extreme adventures is. That it has to show something that'll break a person out of their scroll, scroll, scroll, something that'll be eye catching enough or adrenaline kind of dopamine fixing enough so that they actually stop and they look at it.

[00:17:53] Travis Bader: But, you know, like for me going out in the wild, I, I need to, I need to get outside. I need to be just by water. You talk about listening to the birds. I am a big believer of listening to the birds, um, of just being present, uh, every day, I try to find ways to deepen my connection with the natural environment.

[00:18:16] Travis Bader: And I find if I don't, because, you know, And I, I'm going to throw this back at you because the world that we live in, having to post stuff on social media, having to work, you work in these Hollywood realms with people who are a lot of type A personalities, a lot of, a lot of energy. Uh, a lot of people who may have never really spent much time in the outdoors.

[00:18:39] Travis Bader: Um, I, I find that it can be rather. Because if your external environment doesn't match your internal environment, um, there's going to be stress associated with that. 

[00:18:54] Megan Hine: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, cause we, I mean, it's a good point, you know, you make about this, the ever, the, or the feeling to ever need to be upping our social media game or upping the way that we present ourselves.

[00:19:06] Megan Hine: And I think, you know, this is where actually having been a part of. this evolution of, um, adventure filmmaking to the point of where it is now. Um, having watched that journey and actually sometimes I wonder if what we've done is actually not that positive because we, you know, the media needs to sensationalize thing to, as you say, you know, to grab people's attention, you need to sensationalize stuff and you know, what we're doing.

[00:19:34] Megan Hine: When I'm putting together a, um, like a journey for, for, for a TV show, looking for locations, looking for stories, we're looking to trigger emotions in people because that's what gets people hooked. And it is far easier to trigger fear and anxiety in people than it is joy and happiness. because of that primitive survival mechanism, it's so easy to trigger that and to, you know, to make people feel, uh, fear or anxiety or to empathize with what that person or character on screen is going through, than it is to, to trigger sort of joy and happiness in, in other people, which is really sad.

[00:20:13] Megan Hine: It's like, what? 

[00:20:16] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, 

[00:20:17] Megan Hine: yeah. So this is, and this is, and this is like, you know, Even myself, I find myself, um, you know, you do do the doom scrolling and you're stuck in this like, um, social media hole, uh, and you forget. And it's like even working in the industry and knowing how manipulative it is and knowing how, you know, much sort of Research goes in, into creating addictive, uh, actions goes into it.

[00:20:42] Megan Hine: It's even then it's like you get caught into this because our brains just, you know, respond. Yeah, it's scary. 

[00:20:49] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well, what, what do you do to keep yourself centered? Like you've talked about burnout before, what do you do to deal with. Burnout to deal with, uh, every day stresses. I mean, you're, you're dealing in high risk environments.

[00:21:04] Travis Bader: There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of energy coming in. What do you do to help, uh, work this through if you can't get outside or if you can get outside, what's your secret? 

[00:21:14] Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean, it's a really, it's a really good question. And, um, just pre COVID actually, because I think for me personally, like COVID came at a good time, like all this kind of lockdown, personally, because leading up to I'd just been diagnosed with burnout.

[00:21:29] Megan Hine: Um, and I think because I'd spent, uh, sort of over a decade, really full time on out on the road, um, At the time, um, myself, my partner, we'd, we'd been together for a, for a long time. We were doing the same work. Um, so we didn't really need to go home and reconnect at home. So we were just constantly on the road for sort of 10, 11 months of the year.

[00:21:52] Megan Hine: Um, constantly bouncing time zones, environments, you know, just before COVID, you know, managing projects in the jungle. And, uh, you know, so I'd have a job going in South America, job going in China. bouncing between those time zones, typically cruise, international cruise. So you're on like zoom calls, your meetings, all hours of the day and night, um, and managing multiple projects.

[00:22:16] Megan Hine: And these are all quite high risk, high stress, um, jobs with an inherent risk. You know, when you're out working in these environments with a lot of moving parts of helicopters and boats and people, um, to be switched on all the time. Um, and then, you know, and then inevitably there's like the level of. a sort of a layer of politics as well that gets involved as soon as you start dealing with sort of mega celebrities.

[00:22:40] Megan Hine: Yes. Um, and that for me is like the, the straw that breaks the, the back. 

[00:22:44] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:22:45] Megan Hine: It's too, too complex for my brain to, to want to deal with. And I just want to do my job. Um, so yeah, just pre COVID, I think it was. It's just accumulation of many, many, many years and not really understanding the need to rest. And also, you know, the fear when you're a freelancer, I'm working in these environments as much as, you know, I'm addicted to it, love it.

[00:23:03] Megan Hine: And that was what was driving me. There's also this underlying fear of, you know, if you take your foot off the pedal, is somebody else going to get in there and take over? 

[00:23:11] Travis Bader: Right. Right. 

[00:23:13] Megan Hine: Um, so yeah, so I, yeah, so was diagnosed with burnout and I, around this time, I actually started wearing, um, a WHOOP device, like a, a wear, like when you wearables, yeah, sort of measuring, um, you know, what's ticking on long underneath the surface and what's going on with my physiology.

[00:23:30] Megan Hine: Um, and my HRV, so my heart rate variability was insanely low. So it was sitting like on average around 10, 

[00:23:38] Travis Bader: like, 

[00:23:39] Megan Hine: um, I know it is nuts cause I know, souped. It's a really physical job because, uh, managing people, but also like rigging. So it's like, you know, wandering, like going into the mountains every day with like 20 kilogram, um, rigging bags and like, you know, running around in these environments, like, you know, super physical.

[00:23:57] Megan Hine: Um, but my heart rate variability was insanely low and it's taken like four or five years for it to get back up. And actually when you see the numbers and you see just how slow it is to come back up. You know, I think that burnout is like burnout isn't talked about enough. And unfortunately, those of us that are most likely prone to it, the ones that are not going to listen to the advice anyway, because of course it's never going to happen to me.

[00:24:22] Travis Bader: Never. Well, what does a burnout diagnosis look like? Like, I, I don't know too many people who would be able to recognize that in themselves if they have burnout. What does it look like? Yeah, 

[00:24:34] Megan Hine: it's, it's really hard to, uh, because it's so insidious. It comes on so slowly, like it kind of creeps onto you. Um, and it can, it starts off usually with, you know, feeling quite tired, um, and just feeling like you can't, yeah, you're just kind of hanging in there, like you're surviving.

[00:24:51] Megan Hine: Um, and it's like you're able to function and it's like, you just kind of keep going. It's almost, you're on autopilot. It's like a really weird feeling. Um, and I think what was. What triggered me to kind of go and get, go and talk to, uh, a medical, uh, professional, a doctor, um, was that I spent three months out in Norway, um, on a job, and I, I came off the back of it, and I was like, I actually can't remember, like, anything about this shoot.

[00:25:19] Megan Hine: Like, I've literally just come off this shoot, and I cannot remember. Yeah, and it was just like, I am, I'm, am I going mad? Like, what the heck? Like, this is insane. Like, so, um, yeah, so I went to speak to a doctor and, um, I was quite emotional at the time, um, around it as well, and just, you just kind of, like, you feel like you You're losing your shit, like, it's kind of, like, things are unravelling, um, and you don't know why, and there's no sort of rhyme or reason, um, but then when you, like, look at the pattern and, like, how long, you know, the behaviours and things, and, you know, I think, I don't think we appreciate, like, the effects of time zone, um, travel and, 

[00:25:59] Travis Bader: I could see that.

[00:26:01] Megan Hine: Yeah. Um, so all, all of that, I think kind of led, led to it and yeah, just feeling, definitely just feeling out, out of sorts. Well, just 

[00:26:09] Travis Bader: prior to COVID, so that'd be around September 20, 2019. You had a post on social media that says in the end, we only regret the chances we didn't take the relationships. We were too afraid to embark on and the decisions we waited too long to make.

[00:26:27] Megan Hine: Yes. It's funny to see when you read social media and like hindsight and just like, yeah, I tried to read any other tech, like messages from that period, 

[00:26:40] Travis Bader: especially if you couldn't remember something after doing a show in Norway, you'd get, get back from that. 

[00:26:47] Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean that was, that was quite scary actually, it was like coming out of the back of that and just being like, people asking you questions about it and just being like, I, I actually don't remember any of this, like this is really, really bizarre.

[00:27:00] Megan Hine: Um, yeah, so I think COVID came at a good point, uh, time for me, otherwise I, I think I would have found it very hard to stop, um. So yeah, it was just good to, good to recuperate and during that, over that period of time, kind of realizing how unhealthy, like the working schedule that I had was. 

[00:27:22] Travis Bader: So you've been vocal about ADD.

[00:27:24] Travis Bader: You've got ADD. At a young age, grade three, I was diagnosed with severe ADHD. I was medicated. Uh, I was on an experimental run in the province of BC for the highest dosage of, uh, Ritalin being prescribed to someone. They just kept upping it more and more just to see what the effects would be like and what it would do until I finally took myself off cold Turkey at the end of grade seven.

[00:27:46] Travis Bader: I said, I didn't want to go to high school taking these smart pills as other people would call them. And, uh, I gotta imagine that the A-D-D-A-D-H-D is gonna play a role in this burnout as well too. 

[00:28:02] Megan Hine: Yeah, absolutely. No, it really, it really does. Um, and for me, the diagnosis of a DD actually came, um, more recently.

[00:28:12] Megan Hine: Um, so that was maybe four years ago. Yes, it wasn't that that wasn't that long ago. And this is what's really interesting because I've done, I've done a lot of reading, um, since that, uh, and understanding, uh, that how there's so many women that I suppose sort of get to sort of my age and get diagnosed either because their children have been diagnosed with it and they recognize the symptoms.

[00:28:41] Megan Hine: symptoms in their child and themselves, um, or they've, you know, or they've, the information's percolated into them to be like, Oh, light bulb moment. Um, I think for a lot of, for a lot of girls, um, ADHD, ADD presents differently to, to boys. Uh, whereas boys tend to. externalize, um, the symptoms, not always this adrenalization, but tend to, um, externalize in that kind of not being able to sit still, that fidgeting, maybe being seen as a bit naughty, uh, in class.

[00:29:14] Megan Hine: Whereas like for girls, often it tends to internalize, um, and manifests as depression, anxiety. Um, the focus is very internal and like this internal narrative, um, that yeah, can lead to depressive thoughts. Um, for me, when I look back on it, it's like in school, it's like I used to just skip, skip classes to go mountain biking.

[00:29:39] Megan Hine: Um, and I could, I could really, I really struggled to sit still and I couldn't understand why. Cause it wasn't like I wasn't achieving, like the grades were, my grades were okay, but I just couldn't sit still. I couldn't focus. I'd be within four walls. I'd just be so anxious. It's like this feeling in my chest of like panic and need to be, need to be moving, need to be escaping.

[00:29:59] Megan Hine: And I'd play up, um, and get sent out of classes. Um, and yeah, I can relate to 

[00:30:05] Travis Bader: that. 

[00:30:06] Megan Hine: Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it? It's just like, we're just not designed to sit still like that. 

[00:30:11] Travis Bader: Well, it's, it's horrible when you're forced to be in an environment that you're not designed to be in, like you say, that's the horrible part.

[00:30:18] Travis Bader: When you look at yourself and you say, there's something wrong with me. Why can't I concentrate? Why can't I study? I remember in grade four, I had a teacher who. I took a different approach with me and he says, well, you like puzzles and you like games here. Do puzzles. You like chemistry, bring in your chemistry.

[00:30:36] Travis Bader: He said, and I was teaching at my college level chemistry books. And for me, chemistry was making disappearing ink or making things blow up. I mean, that was, if it does something that you can see an exact result out of that. That's exciting. Right. And I got straight A's in grade four, by grade seven, I got straight F's.

[00:30:53] Travis Bader: So my teacher said, took me aside at the end of the year. And I look him at my rec. Port guard, it says pass, but the grades didn't come up enough from straight F's to, to really make sense to me. Like, is this a pass? Is this not a pass? And she says, well, technically it's not a pass, but I don't want to see you back in the classroom again.

[00:31:13] Travis Bader: I think you're going to get more out of high school than I'm ever going to be able to give you. You're going. So, um, and you know, growing up, I always looked at, uh, ADHD as. As a male thing, because all of the literature, the doctors are like, Oh, girls don't get ADHD, which isn't, which is ludicrous. Like what, why would girls not get it?

[00:31:33] Travis Bader: And I, I didn't realize how it presents in girls is more, um, internalized. Yeah, 

[00:31:43] Megan Hine: well it's interesting because it's that same, if you think about like the same energy that, uh, like a little boy is going to be putting out into the world with ADHD, that same energy for a girl is typically put inside. And where else is it going to go into like these kind of, Weird thought patterns or unhealthy thought patterns.

[00:32:03] Travis Bader: So you've got, you've got a background in psychology. Um, if I were to put on my pseudo psychologist hat, having zero background in psychology, um, I'm wondering if perhaps your desire to be outside and be in these extreme environments. Was an attempt at being present because when you're thinking about where your next hand holder foothold is going to be on the rock, when you're thinking about when you're rafting down the river, like where's, where's the hole, where's, where's the, uh, the strainers and the keepers and your head is right there in the moment, it allows your external environment to kind of maybe match your internal environment.

[00:32:45] Travis Bader: Is that, uh, is that an accurate assessment? 

[00:32:48] Megan Hine: I think that's a very accurate assessment. But I think there's two parts of it. I think you're right in that it is, uh, finding the present, but it was also in a running away. It's like, I've made a career about of running away and it's like running away from that, those, that anxiety.

[00:33:03] Megan Hine: Cause it's like, if you can pedal fast enough or push yourself hard enough, you can out like outrun the anxiety. Um, and then, yeah, the climbing, the rock climbing, um, for me, like, I actually wrote, when I was at university, I actually wrote my dissertation on, uh, flow in rock climbers. And it's like where you find, I'm sure a lot of like people, outdoors, um, folk who have had this experience at some time or another.

[00:33:30] Megan Hine: for those, for some of you may be super lucky to experience it a lot, but it's this kind of moment where it's almost like you're not thinking. Your body and mind are so connected and it's like you're flowing up the rock face or you're flowing through the, along the trails. If you're running, I'd imagine it's something that you experienced a lot when hunting as well.

[00:33:49] Megan Hine: Um, and you're just so in tune with the environment. It's the most beautiful thing to, to, to be. And it's just the ultimate. being present. And that for me, and like the rock climbing, um, it was just, it was beautiful. And I was, I suppose I was chasing that, um, as well as the, you know, the running away from anxiety or, you know, emotions that I didn't have the toolkit to be able to deal with, um, when I was younger.

[00:34:16] Travis Bader: When I was younger, my parents said they didn't think I'd live past 10 years old. And then they said, well, you made it a 10, maybe 12, 12, maybe 18. Now you're an adult. Well, maybe, maybe you're going to make it right. And because I was, I was just bouncing off the walls everywhere and I was always doing things that were putting.

[00:34:35] Travis Bader: Myself in physical risk. And, you know, I almost died a number of times and through my teenage years and early twenties, almost drowned three different occasions. I've almost drowned. Um, and the one thing I found though, was you never truly feel as alive as when you almost die, right? When, when, when you're on that edge and it's like, it could go this way, it could go that way and you get through and you're riding this high and you feel great.

[00:35:05] Travis Bader: But it can cause you to keep pushing more and more for those environments. It's kind of like, and I liken it to a cliff jumping. Okay. So I jumped off from this height. Can I go higher? Okay. Now I've done it for here. Can I go higher? Like at what point do we stop? And I'm wondering, so you had quite the experience in that crevasse, uh, that was a, uh, life threatening situation, was it?

[00:35:31] Megan Hine: Um, yeah, that, that one was, that was, um, yeah, that was kind of what prompted us to go back, uh, to university and do some, do some studying. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I totally, totally agree with you. Uh, with that, I think, and whether that's an ADD, ADHD thing, or whether it's a personality type, or childhood experiences, or, you know, whatever it might be, there is, um, you know, for, for many of us, there is that feeling of feeling alive when you're confronted, or when the consequences are, um, so strong.

[00:36:04] Megan Hine: And this is going back to, you know, what we were talking about earlier, about like that fight flight freeze response, and the stress response, and whether we've evolved to live as we do now. Um, you know, there's so, so few times really in the modern world, in the western world, where, um, we have to take responsibility, um, for our own actions.

[00:36:23] Megan Hine: It's very easy. There's a blame culture. Um, you know, you see that in like the suing culture and things. Yeah, and constantly. Passing the buck onto somebody else. Whereas, you know, when you go out into the outdoors, whether you're hunting, whether you're running, whether you're climbing, you have to take ownership of your actions.

[00:36:41] Megan Hine: Um, and that responsibility, uh, is really empowering. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that's where a lot of this comes down to as well as you actually feel alive because you actually have to engage in your life. 

[00:36:55] Travis Bader: I agree. Do you, do you hunt? 

[00:36:57] Megan Hine: Um, I spearfish. I would love to hunt. I live in the uk. I love 

[00:37:00] Travis Bader: spearfishing. 

[00:37:02] Megan Hine: I love it.

[00:37:02] Megan Hine: Yeah, that's my, that's my mindfulness. Like, yeah. So I live on the coast in North Wales. Uh, yeah, it's yeah. Often, often out here. 

[00:37:11] Travis Bader: And you spear fish out in North Wales. 

[00:37:13] Megan Hine: Yep. Yeah. I got my bass and yeah, mullet. That 

[00:37:18] Travis Bader: is so cool. Yeah. I, um. I recently learned that if I put a little bit of silicone on my mask and create a seal for my, uh, my beard mustache here, and I can actually, used to be, I just shave it all off.

[00:37:31] Travis Bader: Anytime I went into the South Pacific or places I want to spearfish and I will just take a, um, I'll find a chunk of bamboo and some surgical tubing and some paracord. And maybe I, if I'm able to find a stinger head or travel with a little stinger head, I'll wrap that on there. And I, and I use a, like a Hawaiian sling I'll make up.

[00:37:51] Travis Bader: Are you using a spear gun or like a sling or? 

[00:37:55] Megan Hine: Yeah, I do have a Hawaiian sling. I don't tend to use it here. Um, but I, because I work quite a lot of Panama at the moment. Um, so I take a Hawaiian sling that I take packs down and I take that with me. Um, but I do, I've got a spear gun. I usually go out with a spear gun here.

[00:38:11] Travis Bader: I find for me, the. Like growing up, I always wanted to hunt and I didn't really get out. I spent a lot of time outdoors. We had a commercial fly fishing lodge in an area just past Kamloops up in, uh, here in British Columbia, and it was a hike in or fly in only sort of thing. So you could get a helicopter in and there's about 5, 000 elevations.

[00:38:32] Travis Bader: So you could land a float plane, but there's speculation whether you. At that altitude, you could take off again, or you're hiking all your gear in. So as a kid, I would, I would, I'm going to do air brackets, I would hunt and I had no idea about what was allowed or not, but you know, squirrels and grouse and stuff like this.

[00:38:51] Travis Bader: Um, but the. The ability to be present and all the little things that come in and how the animals interact with the flora and, and each other just becomes a study. I find when I'm out there, what's growing. Uh, do we see. Do we see spruce tips kind of coming out here? Okay. So that tells me an idea as to where my elevation is.

[00:39:15] Travis Bader: And it gives me an idea as to what kind of animals are going to be out this time of the year. And for me, it's, it's not about the actual act of harvesting the animal that just happens to put some food in the freezer. But it's all of that time up preparing for the hunt, uh, packing, getting everything together, training ahead of time, then, then being outside and trying to as quickly as possible become one with nature.

[00:39:41] Travis Bader: For me, that's what hunting's about. 

[00:39:43] Megan Hine: Yeah. I'm so jealous of Canadians and your amazing wilderness. You've got the most amazing backyard to go and play in. Uh, but I, I, I totally agree with you about that. When you're in spearfishing, it's exactly. what it is. Um, that, cause it's, you've got this one breath to go down and understand the animal behavior, have a look, you know, see any idea, any idea, any signs, um, in the environments of, you know, of the fish that you're looking for.

[00:40:11] Megan Hine: Um, and yeah, it's, it's just magic. And it's just that, that feeling. Um, Yeah, but yeah, like, like you, it's not, it's not about shooting the animal, that's not for me, that's not, that's actually, I find that incredibly difficult, um, which I'm glad about actually, because then you have the respect for where your food comes from, um.

[00:40:33] Travis Bader: Huge. 

[00:40:34] Megan Hine: Yeah. But the, as you say, like the lead up to it is just, it's just incredible. It's something really primal. It's what we've been programmed for. 

[00:40:42] Travis Bader: It is. And you know, if I'm going to eat meat, I should be able to square myself with the idea that at some point the animal has to die. And if I. Put that onto a third party.

[00:40:53] Travis Bader: And I kind of divorced myself from the concept of, of where that food comes from. I find there's a much more intimate connection when I sit around the table with my family and we're eating a meal and we're talking about the time that we spent together outdoors. I mean, it's, uh, um, it's a very, very close connection that I find that whole close circle with the natural environment.

[00:41:14] Travis Bader: I'm curious as to your thoughts on medication for something like ADD, ADHD. 

[00:41:22] Megan Hine: Yeah, that's really interesting, um, thought actually, cause this is something that, excuse me, this I've been thinking about actually a lot recently, because I guess. I suppose like 18 months ago, I kind of, I made more of a shift into focusing on building up my company, um, and developing show ideas and projects.

[00:41:44] Megan Hine: There's a couple of projects that we've got that are in development, um, at the moment, which are really, really exciting. And oh my gosh, if like one of them comes off, it's going to be insane. Uh, I'm just really excited. I feel very passionate about these things, but, um, the problem I have that I've never experienced before, and I think you mentioned like the ADHD is like a superpower and I completely agree with this because it's, it's allowed me to do my job and it's like in a field where, you know, there are so many moving parts like all the time when, when we're working, when we're filming and it's like all the different aspects and it.

[00:42:19] Megan Hine: That my role covers, uh, and I'm involved in every department. I'm, I know what's happening where, where everybody is. Uh, and my brain works so well like that when I've got this big overview, um, of what's happening. But when I've been trying to, more recently, been foc trying to focus on sitting behind my computer and creating spreadsheets and things.

[00:42:42] Megan Hine: Ah, yeah. And I, like, it is It is a horrible feeling because it's just this like, again, it's going back to that sort of childhood sitting in between four walls and this sheer panic that starts arising and just like trying to like keep myself here and it's like, I just want to go. Um, so I'm trying to figure the best balance of, of that to try to actually figure out.

[00:43:05] Megan Hine: And that's where I was actually. Would be interested to take medication just to see how it works and how it interacts. I'm fascinated. I don't like the idea of it being long term, but I'd just be intrigued to see if it makes a difference. 

[00:43:23] Travis Bader: I think that's the, the issue with medication is a lot of them are these long term.

[00:43:28] Travis Bader: Uh, I'm going to go air brackets again, solutions. And when you talk about spreadsheets for me, chat GPT has been amazing for helping get the rough work basically done and getting things together. If I, um, throw these things in, that's, I think for somebody with ADHD, it's a, it's a huge creativity. Booster, um, because then actually see the steps through to the next, next point.

[00:43:56] Travis Bader: But, you know, people ask me, they say, well, what do you think my kid's got ADD or my kid's been diagnosed with ADHD or whatever it might be. Um, what are your thoughts on medication? And just all I can speak from is my experience with the medications that they put me on. And I would say, why are we trying to medicate somebody to be able to fit in a certain environment, as opposed to finding that environment that they can thrive in unmedicated.

[00:44:26] Travis Bader: And I know that's not always going to be possible if we want to be in a functional society. If you want to be able to get along with other people, maybe the meds can be a helpful thing, but I, I've always, I always tell people to approach it with a great deal of caution because once you're on these things, a lot of times, uh, the pros will say, well, you can't just come off of it.

[00:44:51] Travis Bader: We have to wean you off, or you can put you onto something else, or maybe you're onto it for life. And I would much rather. Find an environment that I can thrive in with whatever it is that my mindset is, or my makeup is, then to force myself to adapt to one that I'm, I'm not inclined to, to fit in with that, that, that would be my thoughts.

[00:45:15] Travis Bader: It might be a little controversial for some, especially for those who, uh, um, look at medication as a savior. And I get it. If a person is going through a moment of crisis, maybe this is the right solution for them. But by and large, I say exercise and diet and your environment and your circle of friends and the goals that you have for yourself, all of these things, the hard work things of actually being disciplined and, and moving towards the progressive realization of a worthy ideal would be, um, better than medication.

[00:45:52] Megan Hine: I know there's super sound advice and I think it's, I guess it's. This is why a podcast like this is so powerful, uh, because to be able to, for you to be able to talk about your experiences and share it with a wider audience, for people to understand that there may be other options, and that actually just because you have ADHD or you have whatever it might be, doesn't mean that you can't be successful in your career, um, or find change.

[00:46:20] Megan Hine: Yeah, it finds your home, um, out there. I think, I think you're right. I, I think it's sad. I, I see it a lot on, um, like when I used to do a lot more expeditions of people coming along with, um, anxiety and depression and being on medications for that and choosing to, to come off of it on these expeditions, not under my, to your medical providers.

[00:46:44] Megan Hine: But, uh, they were making the decision to come off of it and actually just being in that environment and connecting with people because a huge part of the issue with our society at the moment is that, you know, we don't physically need to interact with anybody ever. And we've got online ordering. You know, we don't actually have to go out.

[00:47:05] Megan Hine: Um, so much of our world is set up in competition with each other. 

[00:47:11] Travis Bader: Whereas, 

[00:47:12] Megan Hine: you know, we, when you see, you know, work with indigenous cultures or see how they're, they operate is very much as a family unit, units that would go around to help each other out, raise children together, patch up shelters together, forage together.

[00:47:27] Megan Hine: Um. All of these things were communal activities that we, we've lost that. Um, we, there's so few of us now actually live near our, near our parents, have that support. Um, our grandparents become very isolated. Uh, and I think this is a huge part of this. It's just like this lack of human connection and, um, working together as, you know, as tribal units.

[00:47:54] Travis Bader: Have you seen that Harvard study that would span over 80 years and it looked at, right. I, what did it say? They were looking at happiness and what makes people happy. What do they say? 

[00:48:08] Megan Hine: Yeah. Well, the human connection being with other people. That's it, the 

[00:48:13] Travis Bader: number, the number one indicator for what, if somebody will be happy or not is strong social connections.

[00:48:20] Travis Bader: Having a good friend group, having a good family group, like across all cultures, across all areas of the world. And that is the number one. Indicator that a personal report, feelings of contentment and happiness is if they have those strong social connections. Yeah, it's really 

[00:48:39] Megan Hine: interesting, like seeing that with like the, um, uh, it was a study done on it's like, you know, what made people more likely to survive in, they typically were looking at like wilderness survival, um, situations, but it was like, what would make somebody more likely to survive a situation.

[00:48:56] Megan Hine: And one of the, there were sort of two main factors. to this, but one of them was, um, that connection, although they, the family or friends or whoever it might be, may not physically be with them. Um, and they may not have any contact with them, but just knowing that they've got this amazing support network behind them, um, was enough to help keep people alive.

[00:49:18] Megan Hine: Um, and the other part of that was like a sense of purpose, um, found in, you know, potentially in routine. Uh, but it is interesting, isn't it? So we are designed, I think this way. When we look at, like, COVID and it's like, there's so many, we're still here in the UK still dealing with the fallout, um, of the sort of mental health fallout from the lockdown that we were experiencing, people being isolated, and there was all this argument about, you know, well, our grandparents went to war and, you know, all of this, and it's like, well, surely they had it worse, like, why are we dealing with such a, such a big mental health issue at the moment?

[00:49:54] Megan Hine: But a huge part of that comes down to the isolation. Yeah. You know, yes, it might sound great that you can sit and watch Netflix all day, but it's far more important to actually physically interact, be with people, um, and, and yeah, and, and talk to people. 

[00:50:09] Travis Bader: I remember as a kid, I was reading, I think it was a national geographic or a popular mechanics.

[00:50:15] Travis Bader: I think maybe it was a popular mechanics and it was an older magazine that was talking about the psychology of survival and it likened. Um, the, the paradox that when they're looking at people in, uh, world war two, and let's say, I think the example was used was a shipwreck and they're surviving on at sea.

[00:50:38] Travis Bader: And by and large, they figured that all of these young. Soldiers would be the ones that would out survive the older ones. But the inverse actually turned out to be true. It was the older ones who looked at the situation and said, well, my first divorce was harder than this, right. And, or whatever it might be, they have these learned experiences and they've got a mindset where they're, I guess, tougher, um, Yeah.

[00:51:05] Travis Bader: I, I find it really, really interesting, um, mental health and mindset and how that plays into survival. 

[00:51:14] Megan Hine: Yeah. Have you, have you read the book, um, by Joseph Frankel, um, Man's Search for Meaning? 

[00:51:19] Travis Bader: The one thing you can't take from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do to me, the last of life's great freedoms is one's ability to choose their own.

[00:51:26] Travis Bader: Attitude in any given circumstance. It's, it's, 

[00:51:30] Megan Hine: it's incredible for anybody who doesn't, hasn't come across this book. It he's, um, a psychiatrist that was, uh, it was in Auschwitz and, uh, he used that time to. Be able to study fellow, uh, prisoners, um, that were in there. Uh, and he writes his book, you know, from a situation that seems so hopeless and what mankind took out of that situation and how they survived.

[00:52:01] Megan Hine: Um, it just, it's incredibly emotional, um, but absolutely mind blowing of just how resilient we are as a species. 

[00:52:08] Travis Bader: Oh, I just find it so crazy and how well that book is written. How well he's been put it together and how he's able to take an objective view. And he'll admittedly say, I'm trying to be objective here, but I live through this.

[00:52:22] Travis Bader: And I realized that there's going to be times with these things kind of bleed through. He would look at people who are all in the exact circumstance and they're all in the exact situation. And some people are. Have just given up all hope while other people, while they might not be in the best of spirits, maybe they can crack a smile and maybe they can tell a joke.

[00:52:44] Travis Bader: Why what's the difference between one person and the other, and what he boiled it all down to was their ability to choose their own attitude in any given circumstance. And for me, that has been key. Hugely powerful that my attitude is a choice. If I can wake up grumpy, then I can wake up happy too. Like that's my choice.

[00:53:06] Travis Bader: Right. So yeah, that, that is, that's a very good book. Is that one that you, uh, read through your, your studies? 

[00:53:15] Megan Hine: Yes. Yeah, it was, um, it was, I just found it. I found it fascinating because I was. Consumed by the, that question of like, why do some people walk out of a survival situation and almost thrive in that situation?

[00:53:31] Megan Hine: Whereas others don't walk out. And oftentimes it's the people that you, that society would least expect to survive, um, that do. And it's like, well, what's, what's the difference? You know, how come are there at least like young children walking out of jungle survival experiences? Um, Yeah. What's the difference here, uh, between, you know, wouldn't think about like a plane crash between other passengers that may have survived that plane crash.

[00:53:59] Megan Hine: Why did they not walk out as well? Um, it's just, I find it absolutely fascinating and yeah. And sort of how you build resilience, uh, in people, um, without breaking them. 

[00:54:12] Travis Bader: When you're working on these sets and you're rigging, do you ever find the psychology side start coming through as well? Where you're having to deal with different people who you might have to give a pep talk to, or put things in perspective to, and if so, do you have examples?

[00:54:27] Megan Hine: Yes. Yeah. Um, so, so on some of the, um, on some of the running wilds, actually like these, the shows that it was working on, it was like, I wasn't actually allowed to interact with, um, some of the participants on it because it would, cause they don't, they'd be looking for me cause there was something. But it's like, they'd say that if we see, if we know you, if you know that you're there and because you're such a calming presence, that we know that we're safe.

[00:54:52] Megan Hine: And it's like, well, that's not the, that's not what the producers want out of it. They 

[00:54:57] Travis Bader: want you to feel on the edge. 

[00:54:59] Megan Hine: Yeah. They want you to be shooting yourself. So, um, yeah, but, but definitely, I mean, you just like, you don't know. And it's like with the running wilds as well, like with those ones, it's like you're, you're taking people out of.

[00:55:12] Megan Hine: Yes, they might be mega celebrities or major faces of politics, but you're taking them out of their everyday life, and you're thrusting them straight into this environment. They've been picked up by helicopter, they've been chucked out into the environment. Typically, there's a very short walk and then they're into a rappel or into white water or whatever it might be.

[00:55:31] Megan Hine: Um, and it's like, you know, these, these are people who are like, are not allowed to do their own stunts usually because it's too expensive to insure them. They've handed over the responsibility for their life and they're in this crazy ass situation. They've got no idea what's coming next. Um, and I have got a huge respect for that.

[00:55:50] Megan Hine: And it's like, it's like people going on expeditions as well. You know, the clients that sign up, um, to go on trips. Um, and. I think going on an expedition with clients, I try to do one or two a year, um, around, fitted in around the TV work, just because it's a completely different experience. Um, and I see it as just this, it's just the most amazing, um, thing to be able to accompany people on a journey.

[00:56:19] Megan Hine: Which they did, they don't know whether they're physically and mentally capable of and seeing them achieve and actually being part of that, that roller coaster, um, of emotion and it's, it's just incredible and like just seeing what, what people can achieve, like summits or jungle treks and survival situations and seeing them come out the other side, just phenomenal.

[00:56:44] Travis Bader: You know, I, growing up, I always had the mindset, I'm tough. I can do this. I'm tough. I'll keep pushing. I'm in pain. I can push through. I'm tough. I can do it. Right. And I just, the mantra on my head, I can, I can, I can. I'll just keep playing it through. It doesn't matter how cold I am, how wet I am, how injured or how hurt I am.

[00:57:02] Travis Bader: I'll just keep going. And I thought that was, you know, that's how you get tough. And I remember a friend of mine, he, uh, first came back from the British army. He's been on the podcast before Jason Bud and he's a. Uh, mountain guide now, but, uh, we go out in the hills with him and, uh, you know, we're going up, I don't want to complain.

[00:57:25] Travis Bader: My feet are, my feet are bleeding. They got blisters. And he's like, well, hold on a second. Let's just stop. Let's sit down. Let's have a quick brew, have a brew up a cup of tea. Right. And, uh, let's administrate yourself is what he would say. And that's something that, uh, it, it makes that mental game so much easier when your body's in the, in a position where it's comfortable and relaxed.

[00:57:49] Travis Bader: And I would look at what I was able to accomplish with my tough mindset, as opposed to what I was able to accomplish with the. Okay. If, if I, if I have something slipping on my pack, I stop, I administrate, I get it on. I'm hungry. I sit down, I have some food, have a tea and I move on. And all of a sudden we're traveling way further, covering way more ground in a comfortable way than I ever was able to do with this.

[00:58:15] Travis Bader: I'm tough attitude. 

[00:58:17] Megan Hine: Do you think that's because you've got a feeling of more control over that situation because you've now can stop and you can sort yourself out. 

[00:58:27] Travis Bader: You know, that's a good point. And I never really looked at it from that perspective. I always just looked at it as, you know, if I'm freezing and I'm cold, but I'll just move faster, right.

[00:58:35] Travis Bader: As opposed to maybe I'll put a jacket on, right. It's in my pack. I'm carrying it anyways. Right. Maybe I just put this jacket on. 

[00:58:43] Megan Hine: Oh, we're all guilty of that though. It's just like, keep going. And then it's like, you know, half an hour later, you're just like, well, that was stupid. 

[00:58:51] Travis Bader: Yeah, exactly. But, but the mind, the mind will go to some dark places when you're right.

[00:58:57] Travis Bader: When, when you're out there and you're tired and you're cold and you're hungry. 

[00:59:01] Megan Hine: Tripping. 

[00:59:02] Travis Bader: Right. And when I, you're stumbling over everything, having a hard time keeping your feet. And I find. The second that I sit down and administrate myself, all of a sudden, those dark clouds don't look quite as dark. The end goal doesn't seem quite as daunting.

[00:59:22] Travis Bader: And so that. That was my introduction into the mental role on the, uh, on the physical survival and the physical, uh, Outcome and performance. And I've become fascinated with that sense. Nowhere near at the level where you're at, but this is why I love having conversations with people like you, because I just find it absolutely fascinating.

[00:59:47] Megan Hine: Well, I think so the more conversations that you can have, the more it's like you realize that, you know, our brains all do kind of function in the same way. And we all do the same daft things. Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:59:57] Travis Bader: I think so. Um, is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about? 

[01:00:05] Megan Hine: Hmm.

[01:00:06] Megan Hine: That's a good question. Um, I think this is where like the ADHD brain comes in, cause it just jumps all over the place. 

[01:00:12] Travis Bader: Oh, geez. Oh, I got a whole bunch of places I can jump. 

[01:00:15] Megan Hine: Um, I don't know if he's covered, covered, uh, some good ground there. 

[01:00:24] Travis Bader: Yeah, I do. I do think we have, you know, there's also chatting about, um, uh, you, you working with people in high risk environments, in trauma filled environments.

[01:00:36] Travis Bader: Is, does that, uh, form a large part of what you do? 

[01:00:40] Megan Hine: Oh, as in like resilience building? 

[01:00:42] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:00:43] Megan Hine: Yeah. Um, yeah, we, we started doing a bit more of that. Um, so yeah, so it was working with people and sort of helping build resilience. That was something that, um, that I've been really interested in. Uh, I'm an ambassador for the British Scout Organization.

[01:01:01] Megan Hine: Uh, and the program that they have. running at the moment is what they call skills for life, which is recognizes that, um, that resilience is built gradually. Um, it's, I think for a long time, we've understood that resilience is grows through hardship, but if you give somebody too much hardship, um, it can break them.

[01:01:24] Megan Hine: And actually that's when you end up with PTSD or CPTA PTSD. Um, and. So what we're trying to do with the younger people is to build up resilience gradually, so encouraging them to expose themselves to lots of different new environments and new situations, new skills, um, so it doesn't necessarily mean going out and pushing yourself hard.

[01:01:47] Megan Hine: outdoors. It's, you know, talking to people that you wouldn't normally communicate with, um, different ages, different backgrounds, different cultures, etc. Um, going into taking on new skills, um, and, and pushing yourself slowly and building up that within, I suppose, within a safe, safe space. Um, so I, a couple of years ago, was Start was asked to be involved in, um, looking at resilience in anti poachers, uh, anti poaching units.

[01:02:20] Megan Hine: Um, and we built this program, um, this trial program, um, which is still running, which is really, which is really awesome. Um, where we went and spent time. So they were doing a, like a. a three month program, uh, these, uh, rangers from all over Africa came to, together, um, and They were, they do this, sort of, train the trainer, they train them, train the guys and then put them, give them back out into the field and they go and train their troops.

[01:02:53] Megan Hine: Um, but this resilience program was just like, well, can we use the same uh, sort of psychology as we do in the TV shows in crafting these stories to again trigger that fear and anxiety to help them understand fear and anxiety and stress and how that affects the system. when they are working and living in an environment where they're not going to have access to mental health support.

[01:03:23] Travis Bader: Um, 

[01:03:24] Megan Hine: so we, we, we're looking at that and like exploring. So we were exploring with them, like what fear anxiety is, what stress is, uh, built a program of like, um, putting more and more. Uh, stress onto them in a controlled environment, uh, and utilizing, for that one, we were typically using height, um, when the exposure from that situation, so, you know, rock climbing, we built a big via ferrata, which is like a big cable system up cliffs, um, which they could move through, um, And sort of building up that exposure and talking through it all at each point, uh, in the hope that, and we're still seeing the results coming back, in the hope that if we're running these, if we're running this and helping them understand, uh, what stress is, what anxiety is, and the effects it has on the body and the mind, that, uh, that they can actually learn to control it and have some sort of autonomy over those, those emotions and the reactions.

[01:04:29] Travis Bader: That's, you know, you raised a lot of, a number of good points here growing up. I thought it was Conan, the barbarian quote, but I later realized it was a Nietzsche quote that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Right. Um, it's not true, right? It's that which doesn't kill me doesn't necessarily make you stronger.

[01:04:48] Travis Bader: Unless you've got the ability to cope with it and to understand what you went through and make that into a positive learning experience. Because if you just keep piling on trauma and you keep piling on, uh, hardships onto a person, eventually it's going to take its toll. It's like filling up a bucket of water with all of this stuff.

[01:05:09] Travis Bader: We have to find a way to let that kind of come out or, or deal with it. And you bring up the idea of stories. I think that's pretty cool too. I mean, and when they look at, um, when you, when you look at soldiers coming back from war and, uh, PTSD, why are they experiencing PTSD? Why does some soldiers in some wars have a higher.

[01:05:33] Travis Bader: Rate of PTSD. And again, my Lehman approach, I don't have any background in this, but if I were to look at it, I'd say maybe it's because of the stories that we tell ourselves or that are being told about us. Like you look at, um, PTSD after, uh, the Vietnam war, where they come. Soldiers are coming back and the society's all against them.

[01:05:55] Travis Bader: Those social groups, which are integral to people feeling happy. According to Harvard seemed all be against the individual. The individual says, why did I go out there and do this? Whereas in warrior cultures, when they come back from a similar war and they're a lot, a lot of those heroes, and they're telling themselves a story, I'm a hero and they could have done the exact same thing, but it's a story that we tell ourself, I think that plays the integral role.

[01:06:23] Megan Hine: Absolutely. And, and also going back to the connection point, it's like, you know, there's also the support systems behind, uh, people as well. Because, you know, there is, there will be members of the military that have gone into, into military service at a very young age to escape domestic abuse, domestic violence.

[01:06:42] Megan Hine: Um, and it's, so it's, you know, our childhood narratives. play into, into these and our ability to be able to cope in situations of stress, um, and whether those, our systems have become overloaded and whether it's, you know, sometimes situations that we might be faced with are we get triggered because we were triggered, you know, because we experienced this and these situations when we were, when we were younger and like our formative years.

[01:07:11] Megan Hine: You know, up to like sort of the age of seven, really. Um, and it's like, you know, it's really, that, that, that is such a sensitive time for us, um, in our human development. Um, and it's where our brains are, our minds are like acting like sponges and soaking up and basically programming us and programming our reactions for the rest of our lives.

[01:07:33] Megan Hine: Which is why when I'm dealing with people that are getting triggered and angry, about a certain situation. It's like, it's important to kind of take a breath and recognize the fact that you're actually dealing with a toddler, because their reactions to whatever the situation is, is being, they're probably being triggered as they were when they were a child, because that's how, when they got programmed to react.

[01:07:58] Megan Hine: And actually Trying to switch off your own reaction because it's very easy isn't it when somebody's having a go at you and you know It's like it's not your fault. You're just like the fuck Like oh fuck off and I get and then the situation and then you're both acting in this kind of place of fight flight response, um, and it's like, you know, logic and reasoning is out the window and we can't achieve, um, a goal, whereas actually being able to step back and understanding that this has got nothing to do with me, this is like, this person is obviously upset by this situation here, but actually, again, it's not this situation here, it's something that happened in their childhood.

[01:08:35] Megan Hine: Um, that is, that is causing the reaction now, um, and they're, the way they interact with the world around them. And I think that's something that, you know, we, we just haven't, although all of this stuff is now sort of being studied a lot more and being understood a lot more, there's still a lot about our minds that isn't understood and how they interact with, you know, what society tells us, our past experiences, our present experiences, etc.

[01:09:00] Megan Hine: And how that all Intermingles, um, to create who we are and our reactions to the world around us. Um, I think we've still got a long way to go, um, to help protect military personnel or people who are operating in high stress environments, you know, um, paramedics, doctors, nurses, et cetera. 

[01:09:20] Travis Bader: So how do you recognize in yourself that you're becoming overloaded?

[01:09:27] Travis Bader: Are there indicators that you can pick up on? 

[01:09:30] Megan Hine: Yeah, I think, and this is something where it's like this whole kind of like self awareness and things. And I know that there's a lot of stuff on social media that makes you think all of this is like really hippie esque and, um, kind of woo woo and it's, it's very easy to dismiss it, but you know, behind all of the pseudoscience and stuff, there is actually, um, you know, there, there is a real, Uh thing here and actually having going back to what you were saying, you know about being present Um and recognizing in yourself So, you know for me when we're talking about like the the sort of ADHD side of things and like for me I know it's like a panic.

[01:10:04] Megan Hine: I feel it in my chest. It's quite a physical Um feeling that I feel in my chest and if I start feeling that Um, I know that the sort of panic's starting to rise in me And I know that I'm then not going to be operating in my more human brain, which is where logic and reasoning live. Um, I'm going to be operating in the stress response and fight and flight.

[01:10:29] Megan Hine: Um, and it's so, so when I get an email in. And sometimes you, cause it's, it's very easy to misread or misunderstand, you know, a text message or an email and it's so easy to read it coming in and just be like, what the fuck? And like, 

[01:10:43] Travis Bader: you 

[01:10:44] Megan Hine: want to get back on, like, straight back on the email and just like, yeah, definitely in that moment, it's like, I mean, we're all, we're all guilty of it, and we all do it, but it's in that moment of recognizing, it's like, hang on a minute, why am I triggered?

[01:10:58] Megan Hine: Like, what is it about this situation that's, that's triggering me? Um, and oftentimes it comes down to your own, like, self doubt, and actually, when you step back, it's like, it's not actually worded that badly, or if the person was typing it too fast, and, yeah. 

[01:11:14] Travis Bader: Yeah, I think very 

[01:11:15] Megan Hine: rarely personal . 

[01:11:17] Travis Bader: I think that's why they made emoticons, because we have gotten so bad at the written language, at conveying what we actually mean.

[01:11:24] Travis Bader: We'll type something out with the best intentions, and it comes across to the other person as why would they say that? But if I put a laughy face at the end, or if I put this emoticon, then they know kind of where I'm at and what I'm feeling. So 

[01:11:38] Megan Hine: aggressive emojis, 

[01:11:40] Travis Bader: right? And I find it so easy and you get an email like that coming in, um, I just sit on them and I just wait or a text, I'll just wait.

[01:11:50] Travis Bader: Um, some, some places I'll say like, Dealing with government bodies. I'll be, excuse me,

[01:12:03] Travis Bader: dealing with government bodies. I'll say, I respond to my emails on Wednesday. Is this an important matter that needs to be addressed before then? Or can it wait till Wednesday? And they'll let me know. Yes or no. Next Wednesday comes up and I'll say, still working on my response. I'm not ready yet. I'll have to do it next Wednesday, but I've become very disciplined in my approach to how I deal with.

[01:12:23] Travis Bader: Um, messages and emails as if they could be read at a later date. I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's a smart thing to do, or if that's overly cautious thing to do. But I always think if somebody coming in and looking at this from a completely outside perspective, saw it, what would they have to say?

[01:12:41] Travis Bader: And. That's, that's the approach that I typically take with emails. I think 

[01:12:46] Megan Hine: that's very smart. I mean, you see like, you know, the, the cases that are in the media at the moment, like the big cases around, you know, it's hard to like, not to have seen these things, you know, with Blake Lively and, um, Justin Baldoni and you're seeing this case and it's like.

[01:13:03] Megan Hine: All of their messages are just being shared out there. So I'm, I'm the same as you now. It's like, whenever I send them a WhatsApp, whether it's to a friend, to anybody now, it's just assuming that it's going to be forwarded on or shared. Yes. And yeah. And, and, and also, I mean, it's sad, isn't it? That we have to get to this stage, but it's, you know, keeping up with the IT, particularly with, you know, the work that I do where, um, you know, oftentimes it's like.

[01:13:27] Megan Hine: advising in an advisory role. Um, and you know, maybe something's happening that's, I don't think it's safe, um, on set or I don't think that, you know, this isn't going to work or somebody's going to get hurt of making sure that it's all like documented in email chains and things, um, you know, to, to protect yourself as much as, as possible.

[01:13:47] Megan Hine: And it's, I mean, it's sad that we're at this stage, uh, but it's, but it is really important. And I think, again, it's even more important not to get triggered because otherwise it might come back to haunt you later. 

[01:13:57] Travis Bader: Yeah, there's a real compartmentalization that needs to happen. It's like, okay, I've said my piece, they're going to go ahead with it.

[01:14:03] Travis Bader: I have to make a decision. Do I continue on this show or do I continue consulting with this person? Do we wrap it up at the end of this one? And I, and I take a different approach. I do consulting for a number of different law firms and there's some law firms that I'll, I'll never consult for again. And I'll just.

[01:14:20] Travis Bader: Tell them right off the bat, if they're looking for an end outcome and, you know, I'm hired as a subject matter expert for the courts, not for you and not for your client, I'm sitting here trying to give the courts the best idea from my perspective as to what's kind of happening. And I got to imagine that's probably a very similar approach when you're consulting on these sets, you're not there for the set.

[01:14:43] Travis Bader: You're not, you're there for, for safety. You're there first and foremost to make sure that people are going to be safe and effective. 

[01:14:51] Megan Hine: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is, um, part of the, I suppose people is looking at like the financial protecting, you know, protecting shows, but also, you know, protecting, um, protecting the people involved.

[01:15:06] Megan Hine: Um, it's, it's my, it's primary role, um, on that. Um, and yeah, sometimes it is particularly like sort of high. highly dynamic situations, it can be quite, quite difficult. And, um, I, what I find as well is that we get a lot of, you know, producers, um, you know, maybe coming in from LA or from London and, you know, don't really have a huge amount of outdoor experience, um, but have been doing these shows and have become a bit desensitized to the fact that we're not in a studio.

[01:15:42] Megan Hine: And just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean that it won't happen. And it's like, it's what we call a heuristic trap of like, you know, nothing's, nothing's happened. So, you know, we're fine. And we stopped thinking about it and we stopped reading the environment around us. Um, you know, like Avalanche is a A good example of this, of like, you know, travelling over snowy terrain, and it's like, there's never been an avalanche this time of year before, it's like, people just aren't thinking about it, but actually, the avalanche goes off, and then, then it's like, oh yeah, there was like, there was wind from this direction, and there was unusual amount of snow, etc, etc, and suddenly, like, actually all of the signs were there in the environment, um, but that, people fell into that trap, and didn't read it.

[01:16:26] Travis Bader: Right. Gavin DeBecker wrote a book called The Gift of Fear. And he talks about, uh, trusting your gut is a big core message on there. Women have women's intuition, men have their gut feeling, right? But don't try to analyze why your gut feels a certain way, trust the gut later in a safe area. You can go and you can try and analyze why that is and do all of that.

[01:16:51] Travis Bader: But, um, they talk about people so often they find themselves in a violent encounter and they turn around afterwards and say, well, I'm Well, all the signs were there. Well, if all the signs were there to begin with, then some part of you should have been able to pick up on that. And more often than not for me, anyways, I find my gut is the first thing that picks up on something's not right.

[01:17:14] Travis Bader: What's not right. I don't know, but I'm going to extract myself in this situation. We'll try and figure it out. Put my ego aside because it's so easy to want to push on through and, and, um, let that male ego get, get involved. Right. 

[01:17:27] Megan Hine: But do you think that goes back to that, um, when we were talking about earlier about, you know, spending more time in a, in like the outdoor environment and actually taking ownership, that actually you know that listening to that intuition or that gut feeling, um, is important.

[01:17:43] Megan Hine: Um, whereas if you haven't spent much time in those environments where you actually have to take ownership for yourself, that it's very easy to, to dismiss it and get into trouble. 

[01:17:53] Travis Bader: I think so. I also think just like you talk about this, uh, hippie frou frou type of, uh, uh, stuff that's out there about energies and, uh, uh, whatever it might be.

[01:18:04] Travis Bader: I think there's so much in this world that we just don't truly understand. We're always learning new things. Science is always uncovering new things. If we do get these weird feelings, what's the worst that's going to happen if I act on this? Maybe I don't get a summit today. Maybe I don't go into this one location.

[01:18:22] Travis Bader: I walk into going into a pub and you see all the motorcycles outside and, and, uh, I don't know, it looks a little seedy and you walk inside the front door and everyone stops and staring at you. All right. I'm a big guy. I'm tough. I'm not going to turn around. Or maybe the gut says. Yeah, maybe this isn't the place I want to be.

[01:18:40] Travis Bader: And I can figure it out after whatever, whatever the situation somebody wants to relate to, whether that's in a city environment or an outdoor environment, but I think there's more to the world than we truly comprehend. And if it's not going to, uh, grossly hurt you or inconvenience you, what's the harm in listening to that guy.

[01:19:00] Megan Hine: Yeah, my, my, my theory on this is that, like, if you think about, like, the brain as, as an iceberg and it's, like, the, the conscious part of our brain, so, like, our thoughts and things are, like, the tip of the iceberg, there's only a tiny, tiny percentage of what's, of our brain functioning that is conscious, that we're even aware of, the rest of it is all underneath the water, it's the rest, the, the big bulk of the iceberg underneath the water, and our subconscious chooses The, the messages that it sends through to the conscious again to keep, help keep us safe.

[01:19:34] Megan Hine: And I, I, I believe that like the intuition and the gut feelings are like a partially formed image that you're, the subconscious has picked up on like. Ooh, danger. Um, and it's sent through like a partially formed image. It hasn't sent through the full, full details. And actually, if you zone in and you're like, hang on a minute, it's like my brain's picked up on something.

[01:19:56] Megan Hine: Like, let's get the conscious part now in like what is going on here. Um, then often, you know, you can then put the pieces together because we are, It is our natural habitat. You know, like when you go out the door in the morning and it's like, it's kind of blue sky, but you're just like, Oh, I'll just take my, take my rain jacket with me.

[01:20:13] Megan Hine: Right. Half an hour later it's raining. And you're just like, Oh, that was a bit of like automatic response. But it's like, but your, your body might, you know, it's our environment is picked up on that, the messages and you've acted. Um, and it's, you know, we should, I think we really should listen to it more, but you know, we teach young people.

[01:20:31] Megan Hine: I don't know it's like in Canada, but certainly here in the UK, it's like. We teach young people to override their intuition, you know, around people, like first meetings with, you know, always treat people how you wish to be treated. It's like, well, no, listen to your intuition. If you get a bad vibe about somebody, like, listen to that.

[01:20:49] Travis Bader: I like that a lot. And I like that example of going outside and bringing a jacket. Maybe it smells different, but you didn't really pick up on that. Maybe the birds aren't making their normal sounds, but you didn't pick up on that. But there's all these things that are kind of going on. Maybe it just feels different against your skin, but you're not picking up on it, but there's something deep down that tells you, maybe I should bring that jacket.

[01:21:10] Travis Bader: And yeah, as kids, yeah. You know, respect your elders, treat people as you want to be treated. Uh, no respect is earned. And if the elder is not respect, is not earning respect, then you don't, um, you don't give it to them and treating other people as you'd like to be treated. Yeah. Within reason, of course. Um, you mentioned that anxiety feeling that you feel, and you, I think you touched your chest when you, when you said that you feel internally, I'm curious when you get that overloaded, overwhelmed, or sort of that anxiety feeling, and you recognize that's happening.

[01:21:47] Travis Bader: What steps do you take after that? 

[01:21:50] Megan Hine: Yeah. So, um, I don't always do this cause I think, cause I can be pretty stubborn and it's like, if I'm focused on something, um, but it's usually to my detriment. So, um, I recognize it. I'll stop, stop what I'm doing. Um, and try to breathe. But what really helps me is just going out for going out for a run earlier.

[01:22:10] Megan Hine: Cause I was having to make some pretty big decisions earlier today. And it's like I'd scheduled, like, for my run. I live in Snowdonia in North Wales, like in the mountains. Um, and I'd scheduled my run in for later. Um, but I was just like, actually, you know what? I'm gonna go now because I need this. It's like, if I sit here now, I know that, like, you know, I'm gonna have a physical response to this.

[01:22:32] Megan Hine: And then my mind is gonna start Playing out these negative narratives, which are not true. And, um, I just need to go out and move. And it's just like, you know, went out and like literally within a couple of minutes, it's like, oh, here we go. There's the solution. And it's like, it's magic. Like, so moving, being outside and moving is like, is my therapy.

[01:22:56] Travis Bader: I agree with that one. Yeah. Going for a run, going for a walk, just being outside, you know, I do this with my kids, I haven't had to do it in a long time, When they're growing up and, and they're, uh, excited about something. I'll say, well, just sit down for a second. Okay. Do you hear, and I mentioned something.

[01:23:17] Travis Bader: Do you hear the refrigerator? No. Okay. We'll sit down and wait until you can hear it. Okay. I hear it now. Do you hear cars outside? No. Okay. We'll sit down and wait till you hear it. Do you hear the birds outside? No. Okay. And I'd use, and I, and you can do it with any one of your senses, touch and smell and, and feel, but I'd, I'd always use the hearing part because I found in order for me to hear these really quiet things, I have to stop and kind of be calm and I find.

[01:23:47] Travis Bader: Yeah. And I, and I found that to be a good approach with them. All of a sudden they're now present. They're out of that environment where they're just, they're in their head and they're all worked up. And, uh, for me, I found, I find that to be a good way to, uh, decompress. And so when I'm out for a run or I'm out for a walk or whatever it might be, I'm out hiking.

[01:24:09] Travis Bader: Um, I find the exercise is a very valuable thing for me, but unless I'm actually engaging, like, okay, do I actually smell the plants that are growing around me? Do I hear the birds? Do I hear the rustle of the squirrels or whatever it might be? Uh, I find I need to do that personally in order to really kind of be present.

[01:24:32] Megan Hine: So true. Yeah. Well, 

[01:24:35] Travis Bader: um, Megan, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast. I really enjoy this conversation. Thank you so much. 

[01:24:44] Megan Hine: Thanks for having 

[01:24:45] me.