Silvercore Podcast 183 Torkel Norling

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Today's guest traveled to Russia to learn how they run wild boar with dogs. Then he came home and he built Sweden's hunting dog trial system from scratch. And then he went around the world from African traffickers to military canine units to figure out what the best wounded game trackers on the planet all have in common.

He sits on the Swedish Kennel Club's National Hunting Dog Committee, and he gets dispatched by police to track traffic hit wildlife in the middle of the night. His book, modern Blood Tracking, is about to hit English shells for the first time. If you wanna learn how to successfully track wounded game, keep listening.

Welcome to the Silver Core Podcast, torque on Norling. 

[00:00:55] Torkel Norling: Thank you. 

[00:00:56] Travis Bader: Well, I gotta tell you. I, uh, I did a [00:01:00] podcast recently and you've actually been on this podcast before. It's called Nordic Tales and American Trails, and it's with, uh, Eric Rodin. Yep. And I think his, uh, his guest on there is a guy by the name of Darren Petty.

And after recording your name came up a few times and in fact, Eric had nothing but admiration and respect and um, and comments about you. And he says, you gotta have this guy on your podcast. And he says, I watched this hunt that you put on YouTube. 'cause I was with Norma and they had this Norma Academy hunt.

And then I hunted with a few friends from Norma afterwards as well. But on the Norma Academy hunt, it turns out that you were one of the handlers on the dog side. Well, I was one of the hunters on, on the hunt side. So I figured we've got a little bit of over overlap here and there's definitely an interest in North America about [00:02:00] how things are done around the world and where we can learn and how we can do things differently, and especially tracking wound game.

So, uh, I'm really happy to have you on here and, uh, want to get a little bit of your perspective. 

[00:02:12] Torkel Norling: Great. 

[00:02:12] Travis Bader: I find it kind of interesting in North America. I mean, different states are gonna have different relationships with hunters. Different provinces will have different relationships, but the relationship between government and the hunting community in Sweden seems.

Intertwined in some respects, whereas hunters in a lot of North American places will be like, well, I don't know. We're, we're at odds, we're at opposition. Sometimes the hunters can't understand the, the logic or rationale behind hunting restrictions 'cause they don't think they're science-based. They might think they're emotion based or, um, they feel like, you know, there's always new restrictions coming on.

But it, it seems like in Sweden. There's a bit of a synergy between the hunters and the government. The [00:03:00] government says, well, there's this group out there that has specialized skills. They know the ground, they know the area, they understand the animals, and they understand how to track them. Who are we gonna call if a animal gets hit by a car and is wounded?

Who are we gonna call if we need help with animals out And they call the hunters. Is that a, a correct observation from a North American? 

[00:03:22] Torkel Norling: Yeah, absolutely. It's correct. We, we have a great own traditional of communicating, um, between, uh, the state and, and, uh, hunters and others. 

[00:03:36] Travis Bader: I think that goes a long way for preserving traditions too, because there's utility, there's actual scene utility from the government as well as from, uh, the non-hunters in having properly trained, knowledgeable, ethical people out there that are hunters to be able to fill a role within society.

Mm-hmm. I, I think that does, does that help with the [00:04:00] Swedish hunting culture and acceptance? 

[00:04:04] Torkel Norling: Uh, yes. I would say so. Um, we have a, I think we have over 90%, uh, acceptance, uh, in the, in, in the community for, for hunting in, in Wow. Different forms. Yes. And that is good, but it is not getting better, of course, because now, now we have, I guess we have like the first generation of, of, uh, of people growing up in 

[00:04:28] Travis Bader: Hmm.

[00:04:29] Torkel Norling: Uh, big cities that have no connection with the. With the nature or with hunting or with fishing. You know, the first generation, they don't have a grandfather used to hunt. And so, you know, and so, and these people are of course, more difficult to, to, to discuss relevant matters with, uh, that of course it's a problem.

[00:04:53] Travis Bader: Sure, I can see that. Now, you yourself, am I correct in the research I've done, it looks [00:05:00] like it's between two to 300 wounded animal retrievals that you've done last year alone. Is that number right? 

[00:05:08] Torkel Norling: Yeah, that's right. It is. It's about right in, in our, my part of Sweden, like, uh, I don't know what you call it in, in Canada, but it's like a county, uh, okay.

And we have, uh, uh, we in charge of, of the organization, we have like 500, uh, trackers and about 12,000. Accidents a year for, for this. So that's, that's a lot to do. So I have, but it differs from year to year. Some year, uh, the last year I had, uh, quite a lot. Uh, and, uh, you know, the wild bo population has increased a lot.

And at this time, the, the moose population, the moose is our, our really, I mean that's, that's our national [00:06:00] animal. Mm-hmm. The moose. Sure. And, and, but the population has gone down for, for, for some, uh, different reasons. And, and, um, and, uh, one reason is that, uh, the wolf population is increasing and that is really big problem, uh, in Sweden because we have such a, uh, um, yeah, because our, our hunting traditions or, and also traditions, uh, we, we have a law called.

S rec, it's like all man's right to be out in the forest. So, uh, every swed are allowed to walk wherever they want to in, in the forest, in Sweden. 

[00:06:43] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:44] Torkel Norling: They're not you. You can't, uh, you, you can't stop people from walking into your forest, and they're allowed to pick berries and, and mushrooms and, um, uh, the fishing is really very accessible, you know?

Mm. It's quite easy to get, uh, hunting areas, [00:07:00] especially in the north. So, so we're, we're quite close to it and very strong relation. And, and I, I think that's a great thing because therefore we, we get more, uh, motivated to fight for, for nature. So we, we, we are great, great, uh, nature fighters because Sure. We know, we can see if something is wrong in nature and when it comes to the moves, you know, no, for like 20 years ago.

I think we shot on, on the le legal, uh, official moose hunting. Uh, we shot more, uh, moose in Sweden than in the rest of the world. Together. 

[00:07:44] Travis Bader: Yeah, it, it's insane what your moose numbers and you know, I was looking at that. So I'm from British Columbia. 

[00:07:51] Torkel Norling: Yeah, 

[00:07:51] Travis Bader: you in Sweden, if I recall correctly. I forget what the numbers are right now, but it, it's something like you have twice as many people in Sweden [00:08:00] than we do have in British Columbia.

Your land size. Like half the size of British Columbia that we have here. So twice as many people and half the size of, of land. Mm-hmm. But your moose numbers are exponentially higher than what we have over here now. I think you hit on one big, uh, point there. Number one would be, um, predators. So the wolves.

'cause we do have predation on moose by wolves here in British Columbia. And yes, that is a big effect to it. And our civic culture practices, our logging and how we do it, they say it just opens up these easy to roam highways for all animals and it creates a easy path for the, the wolves to mm-hmm. Travel up and down and, and get our moose and our caribou.

[00:08:45] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:46] Travis Bader: Um, however, you guys also have what we would call very backwards. Um. Management practices when it comes to your moose in British Columbia. We got big [00:09:00] signs up. Do not shoot the cow moose. It was a private initiative. People are, don't shoot the cow moose. These are the ones that are gonna be given birth to the next generation.

And uh, you know, obviously our government gets, it gets in there with the scientists as well, and they try and take a look at, uh, sustainable numbers that can be harvested. And we go over to Sweden and this guy's telling us he's given us a lowdown. He's like, okay. So if you see a bull moose and you see a cow moose, obviously the ethical thing to do is, and I'm thinking, oh, of course you shoot the bull.

He's like, no, no, no, you, you shoot the cow moose. Oh, okay. He says, but if the cow is with calves, I'd be like, okay, you don't shoot anything. Oh, no, no. You shoot the calves, but then before you shoot the, uh, the cow, I'm like, that is completely backwards to how we look at it over here in North America. People would jump down your throat and say, you're doing it all wrong here.

However, the numbers that you guys have, the way you're managing it, would seem to [00:10:00] indicate a different story. 

[00:10:02] Torkel Norling: Yeah. But, but yes, uh, I agree. But, uh, we put down a lot of science into this, uh, in, in Sweden, uh, and, um, the licenses that we, we, we, we had, uh, uh, were based on, uh, what we could. Well, first they decided how, how, how large, how many mos do we want in different areas?

And then from from that, we, we decided on licenses. And, but this, I totally agree with what, with what you say, but a lot of this, uh, of this rules were made before we got the wolf. 

[00:10:50] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:10:51] Torkel Norling: So, uh, uh, so before we got the, the wolf, you know, the, the, the Moses is the main [00:11:00] food for, for, for the, uh, for the wolves.

Before we got, got almost any wolf, uh, we had to shoot about what the, uh, uh, uh, strong wolf population would kill, 

[00:11:16] Travis Bader: right? 

[00:11:17] Torkel Norling: And they kill, I, I think half of it, uh, is cough. 

[00:11:22] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:11:23] Torkel Norling: You understand? Therefore, yes, we have to shoot, uh, shoot calves. But now it's, it's beginning to be a bit different with that because like in, in high county here, we have, uh, like nine family groups of wolf now.

So that's a big problem. And, and of course that must affect how we hunt the, the moose, of course. And the moose is what we call red, red listed now. It just came out a couple of days ago. And that means, what does that mean? That means that, that the, the, it's it's, uh, negative trend [00:12:00] on the population. It, it, it's not threatened.

We have a lot of most, but if you compare to what it used to be, you can see. The trend is going downwards. So, so we can't keep on hunting in the same way we must adjust to, to the situation. And, uh, another problem is, is actually climate change because it's got so much warmer, especially in the, in the southern part of Sweden, and, you know, the moose is adapted to, to cone climate.

Sure. And, uh, if it gets too hot, especially in the now, in the spring, uh, the cow uses so much, much energy in, in her system, uh, to, to lower her, her temperature, so much of the energy that she should put into the, uh, the cough and the, and the raw milk. She, she, uh, uses herself. To survive and, and maybe plan to get coughs next year.[00:13:00] 

So the coughs are, are very weak. A lot of them in the southern part of Sweden because it's so much warmer now compared to just when I was a kid. It's, it's totally different. And that's also reason. So we can't, we can't before of having, uh, a good, uh, most population in southern Sweden in the future because of that.

[00:13:21] Travis Bader: Well, with the wolf population being a newer. Introduction to Sweden. Uh, I gotta imagine it probably has encountered newer ideology and opinions on how to manage and regulate it. And some of that's gonna be tied into, well, a wolf looks like a dog and you shouldn't shoot it. Like controversial is, uh, around the world, I've found some of these animals can be rather controversial to, um, to manage.

Is that similar in Sweden? 

[00:13:52] Torkel Norling: Definitely, yeah. I think, I think the, the arguments or, or or the, the, the feelings for the, uh, [00:14:00] the partly irrational feelings for the, for the wolf are the same in the whole world. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a fantastic animal. I, I was on, on a, on a traffic accident with a, a large male, uh, wolf, uh, like couple of weeks ago and, and it's, it's a magnificent animal.

I mean, the, the pole are like this. It's, it's, it's, they're 

[00:14:22] Travis Bader: massive 

[00:14:23] Torkel Norling: saucers. It looks in my life as times three, you know? Mm. Uh, but it, it conflicts very much with our way of, of, um, connecting to, to nature. Definitely. Uh, so, so, uh, and I don't, I'm not totally against wolf as, not as, as a, as an animal. I don't hate any animals, but, but it's a very obvious conflict with interest.

Mm-hmm. Because, uh, it's, it's not as much room for our lifestyle, um, uh, when it's, when there are a [00:15:00] lot of, of woods in the, in the forest. Definitely not. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and, uh, about, uh, about our life lifestyle when it comes to hunting. So the, the traditional Swedish, uh, hunting and hunting tradition is. Very much based on, on large forests.

Uh, I think that, I'm not sure about this, but I think that, uh, we are the third largest export of Tim per of the Canada and Russia, I think, in the world. So we have a lot interesting, the forestry in mm-hmm. Industries. Huge. And that also affects the, the moose problem mm-hmm. Because they got so, so much damage, uh, o on, on the, the trees.

Uh, but our, our hunting tradition is very much based on very independent, uh, hunting with [00:16:00] very independent dogs, you know? 

[00:16:02] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:02] Torkel Norling: Few people out in the woods, uh, and huge areas, not that dense population with, with different, uh, animal, uh. And dogs that search widely and never quits. Mm-hmm. We have some of the speeds, like it's, looks like almost like a wolf, you know, like a spits, like a, like that's, uh, the Swedish natural breed.

And, uh, and we have a lot of hounds, like we call it, uh, like Hamilton, et cetera, very independent dogs. Um, that works, uh, far from the, from the, the, the owner and, uh, very independently and, and that clashes. Very badly with, with, with most, that doesn't, doesn't mix very well, of course. Mm. And then we have, uh, [00:17:00] the tradition that you met when you, you, uh, came here of hunting that's more, uh, a continental, I mean the European, continental, continental way of, of, of hunting, uh, that you see in the very south southern part of Sweden on the states and such, you know, with a lot of animal on, on quite small areas and, uh, and totally different, different situation.

You don't see that in the northern part of Sweden at all. Uh, and, uh, where you have, uh, many dog, many handlers, many dogs, dogs that, that they're not supposed and, or not allowed to, to be, uh, persistent at all because you as, when, when you went here, you, you might have like three beats in a day. Maybe you hunt the hunting around three, three.

Times a year, that's all. And, uh, and you invest a lot of money in these, these hunting grounds, very expensive to, to, to get [00:18:00] animals that, that, um, uh, also plentiful. And uh, then you might have three bits a day and exactly as you, you, so, uh, so, um, and if the dogs are not supposed in the first bit, they're not supposed to follow an animal into this.

Number two, then they might destroy. 

[00:18:21] Travis Bader: Right? 

[00:18:23] Torkel Norling: Uh, and, and, uh, for the people that used to these independent dogs I talked about earlier, that, that they, they can't see, uh, they, they think that those dogs, they're definitely not worth. In, in their opinion. Mm-hmm. You understand, because, so you have polar safety in, in, in the hunting community a bit.

[00:18:48] Travis Bader: Gotcha. Yeah. We've had a opportunity to do a few different hunts over in Sweden over the last few years. Uh, first one we did was in, um, it's outside Mora, [00:19:00] uh, Soran. Soran. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but it's, um, uh, it's a small island essentially, and it's uh, uh, it's southeast of Mora. 

[00:19:13] Torkel Norling: Oh, yeah.

In, in, do you know? 

[00:19:16] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah. Around there. And, uh, it was just, you know, bunch of friends, farmers going out and some with their dogs, some people, you know, clapping to drive animals. And, uh, that, that was our first experience to Swedish hunting. Mm-hmm. Uh, it was very, very different than what it's like with, like, it would probably more be more akin to what we do in North America, except we're not big on driving in North America.

[00:19:41] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:42] Travis Bader: At least not in British Columbia here. Um, that's generally not how people do most of their, their hunting for, for deer or moose or, um, but then we go to that estate and that estate was just completely different, very foreign. Like we had a, uh, I think it was [00:20:00] Felix was the, uh, hunt master for the day.

Uh. Yeah. Felix Devon, 

[00:20:05] Torkel Norling: mm-hmm. 

[00:20:05] Travis Bader: Comes up the night before and he is all in his traditional hunting attire. And he comes very stern looking and he looks like a, uh, regimental sergeant major coming on in, getting ready to give some orders and, and, uh, starts off, if you shoot a moose, the police will be called, you will not be going anywhere.

That's how the whole thing starts, right? It's like, okay, we better be pay paying attention here. And I was up there, I was doing some filming. I'm like, I better not fill this. I don't wanna look disrespectful. I gotta pay attention. And we got these sheets that he, uh, that he handed out and it's like, well, you, you can take a row deer, but only fawn.

You can take a fallow deer, a hind. Not the leading hind though. Um. You can take calf or two pointed males and it, and it goes through here, red deer male, hind calf, wild bore. You can take a male, but last year's offspring up to 60 kilograms. And [00:21:00] I'm like, I don't even know what 60 kilograms is. I gotta get the, uh, phone out to convert it to pounds, and you're telling me that I'm supposed to identify a wild boar, which I'd never seen in the wild before coming out there at full run while dogs are, are driving it and see like, is it male, is it female?

And now is it 60 kilograms around there, uh, or below. So, uh, I was like, well, maybe I just don't shoot at Boars and maybe we just make sure, like, I don't want, I, I'm gonna like kinda wait out the first drive and kind of see what's going on here. 

[00:21:35] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:36] Travis Bader: Uh, I, I think his intention was to make sure everyone knew the rules.

Mm-hmm. And some people were too afraid to pull the trigger. So then the guides come up like, no, actually you can take, and then the discrepancies coming. 'cause the guides are like, well actually you can take female or you can take, uh, and there's all these different rules. I'm like, geez, I don't want to be found offside here.[00:22:00] 

So anyways, we, we set up on our first, uh, we're in the stand, we're placed out there. There's a no shoot area. You hear the dogs, sure enough, there was a boar, like 20 meters away from us, beded down. Mm-hmm. And when the dogs came by, it pushed it out. And I just watched that thing go out. I'm like, I's too close to the dog.

I don't want to take the shot. And all the, I don't know if it was male, female, and all the rest, um, it, it made for an interesting hunting experience. One where I had to park my assumptions and how I typically hunt and just turn my brain on and try to learn. 

[00:22:35] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:35] Travis Bader: But you were on that hunt as well, but I guess your role would've been after each.

After each, uh, drive to find wounded animals that you Right? Yes. 

[00:22:47] Torkel Norling: I, I was, uh, uh, uh, did the tracking part. Uh, okay. I had not that much to do. I, I guess because some of you didn't that [00:23:00] shoot after Felix, uh, military style. He's a great guy. 

[00:23:07] Travis Bader: He is, he is a, 

[00:23:07] Torkel Norling: I I work with him in, in the organizing the, the trackers in, in, uh, the, uh, after the traffic accidents in, uh, in, uh, my county.

So he, he's a great guy, but he, he, he's, he, 

[00:23:19] Travis Bader: I quite like him. He's, he's very nice. 

[00:23:22] Torkel Norling: Uh, he, he, but he, he's quite tough because you see, especially with, with guests, paying guests, you can see often, uh, that uh, if you not very strict it, the rules will be misuse. Sure. No. Uh, so, um, that's the pro, but that was a good, that was a good example of, of the, the southern, uh, continental type of hunting.

Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, Felix has, uh, uh, uh, uh, just as has got, uh, like us, the breed like us, and he hands up in the northern [00:24:00] part of Sweden and, and the, the then he, he, his hunting situation is completely different because then it's, you know, big forests and uh, uh, free everything. Not everything is free, but it's much freer than, than that down here.

It, it, that kind of, of hunting experience. It's very controlled. It's very, and maybe when we talk about, about my, my, uh, recent work we might get into this with, with stress and, and, and things, uh, similar aspects of hunting. 

[00:24:35] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:24:35] Torkel Norling: Because you can definitely say that in the situation you were in, in the stand is very stress stressful situation.

Uh, when, because you don't have, you're not used to this situation, you need much Oh, brand new. You, you need much more time than, uh, I do, uh mm-hmm. Before you, you can be sure it's, it's a male bo or [00:25:00] a female bo or 

[00:25:01] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:25:02] Torkel Norling: And, and, uh, your, your stress level is a bit higher and, and you, you more keen to make a mistake and, and if, if you, if you are controlled, uh, uh, good person that then you don't shoot.

[00:25:14] Travis Bader: That's 

[00:25:15] Torkel Norling: right. Of course, in, in many of these situations, that's the problem, of course. 

[00:25:18] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. So if you are in North America and you find yourself in a place where you can't use dogs to track wounded game, what advice would you have for somebody? To assist them in successfully tracking a wounded animal?

[00:25:38] Torkel Norling: Uh, that's a, that's a good question and, and quite difficult question for me, because what I say clearly is that I made a, a big part of my li life to, to try to understand how to train dogs, how to interact with dogs, to get good at tracking. Mm-hmm. [00:26:00] And I can see that I lose some ability to track without dogs.

[00:26:06] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:26:07] Torkel Norling: Because you understand what I mean? I can let a dog, uh, dog, uh, work fully on an, in certain area. 

[00:26:14] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:14] Torkel Norling: Because I train the dog to mark blood, let's say mark blood. Then I don't, I don't have to, to look for blood because mm-hmm. The dog is much better than I am and I trust the dog. And then I, instead of helping the dog.

That is not necessarily help I walk away and let the dog work freely and then I lose my ability. 

[00:26:37] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:26:38] Torkel Norling: To see blood, to see, see indications in the leaves and in the grass, et cetera. For dogs, I mean, I mean, compared to, you can see in Africa the traditional African trackers who don't use dogs. They, they nowadays, in some places they use dogs more, uh, even in Africa.

But, but the, the, the, the, [00:27:00] uh, traditional trackers that, that are incredible. 

[00:27:04] Travis Bader: Yes. And 

[00:27:05] Torkel Norling: I guess, uh, people in the old days when they didn't have dogs in the all countries were, they were as good as African or in Turkey. 

[00:27:16] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:17] Torkel Norling: But I'm not, of course, because I don't need two, I can't compete with a dog. Dog is so good.

Mm-hmm. But, but, uh, so, so. I, my solution is to have a good, good dog. But if you're not allowed to have good, if you're not allowed to use a dog, then you can't be nearly as efficient, then you will lose a lot of animal as you will do that. 

[00:27:45] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:27:46] Torkel Norling: Um, the same thing if you, if you're not allowed to use both a line tracking dog and, and, and a release dog, you will lose some animal because you, you, you, you lost one [00:28:00] tool in the toolbox.

[00:28:02] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:28:03] Torkel Norling: Of course. 

[00:28:04] Travis Bader: Sure. Uh, 

[00:28:05] Torkel Norling: so I, I can't, uh, it's of course, it's, it has to do with, with training, but I can't give many advices to people that are all so unfortunate that they're not allowed to use dogs. 

[00:28:18] Travis Bader: Okay. So let's say, let's say they can have a dog to get out there. Yeah. What. What would a typical call out, the police call you up and say, Hey, there's an animal.

It's hit, it's been off the highway, we don't know where it is. Um, come on out. Can you help me out? What does, what does it look like? How do you get yourself ready and what does the, uh, pursuit look like? 

[00:28:40] Torkel Norling: Uh, they, it is always, or, or maybe 19 out of, out of 20 occasions in the middle of the night, uh, the police calls, uh, and says, hello, uh, we have a, a traffic accident, uh, like road or removed or, or a wild bore, or [00:29:00] a couple of days ago it was a links hit by a car.

And, and they say, can you help us? And I said, yes. Uh, and, uh, everything. All my equipment, I, I, I've, um, all the equipment is in the basement, uh, ready. All the batteries are charged and everything is ready because I, I, you know, I know how, uh, diffused, uh, my brain will be in the, in the middle of the night when you mm-hmm.

In the middle of a dream, you know? Uh, so I have control over that. And, and the dogs are always ready. And it is interesting thing because if I talk to a friend, I get some calls in the, in the day too. But the dogs here immediately. If I talk to a police or 

[00:29:53] Travis Bader: really? 

[00:29:53] Torkel Norling: Yeah. Yeah. If, if, if this was about you giving me a, a mission track [00:30:00] mission mm-hmm.

The dogs would bark as hell. No. 

[00:30:03] Travis Bader: Really. 

[00:30:04] Torkel Norling: But here immediately, uh, and, uh. In a way it's a bit, bit, bit embarrassing because I, I work with, with developing, uh, uh, fainting methods and I can't get my dogs to shut up. But, but it's, it's, for me, it's, it's worth much to have dogs that does that are so motivated, you know?

Mm-hmm. Uh, they're so motivated that it's, it's a high demand to, to to, to tell them that, to, to, to shut up. 

[00:30:39] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:40] Torkel Norling: You, you, you understand when, uh, 

[00:30:41] Travis Bader: oh, totally. 

[00:30:42] Torkel Norling: I say yes to the, to the, uh, police calling me. Then I get an, uh, uh, uh, SMS from the police, uh, with all the, the facts in, uh, where the, the place animal, uh, everything the police got from the, [00:31:00] the driver.

And, uh, also get the driver's telephone number. So when I'm in the car. Uh, and she in the right, I have now I, I I have three, I have three. Like us is like us and one Heno, Hanover, ovarian, maybe you call it, uh, cent to, it's, it's a specialized Right. Okay. Blood. Blood. Ho uh, uh, and, uh, when accusing the dogs and got, get, got into the car, I phoned the driver always.

[00:31:36] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:37] Torkel Norling: So the driver, uh, uh, the Swedish law says that the driver must phone the police after he hit the ano, and they must mark the place and they must be ready to, to, to, uh, answer the phone. 

[00:31:51] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:53] Torkel Norling: Uh, the answering phone part is not, uh, uh, regulated by law, but the police tell Sure. [00:32:00] Yeah. And then I, uh, this, then I get, uh, a opportunity to get more information than I got in the SMS.

[00:32:08] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:32:08] Torkel Norling: And, and, and, and that also thing I, I've studied how to make, uh, the best of this quite stressed person because I'm, I'm the only one almost in the world that is not stressed at all in this situation because it's my job. 

[00:32:28] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:28] Torkel Norling: You understand? So, so, um, but, so I'm very calm. For me, this is every day work, but, uh, he or she is, is sometimes extremely stressed.

It might even be in hospital, you know, so, so Sure. And then the police say that we, we, we'd rather see that you don't call the person than understand. This is not, not very good. Uh, and then I get more information then I often call a colleague. So we are, we try to be too out. And, and one reason for that is [00:33:00] it can be dangerous.

Things can happen. Uh, and then we get to the place we mark, we put up tents with, with, uh, with, um, uh, lights on it, you know, uh, sure. And, and, uh, flashlights on, on the tents on, on every, on each side. And then we start, uh, looking on, uh, the road on the asphalt. Mm-hmm. So I, one of my dogs, the one sleeping here, uh, the same town, she is specialized on hot surfaces, you know, uh, so she Interesting.

Yeah. She, she is trained for, she believes that the best way to find something great. Is to search on asphalt. 

[00:33:49] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:33:50] Torkel Norling: You know, uh, because I, I, I, I taught her that, that that's where, where the things start. Uh, and so, and she learned that if [00:34:00] it's an animal that's not hit by car, she will never get reward for tracking it.

Mm. Never, ever. So therefore, she, she has got no reason to, uh, leave asphalt for the, uh, for the ditch or the forest because Okay. The torch of, of the farm pot, the start of the pot that you will get rewarded for that is a wounded animal is always on the asphalt. 

[00:34:33] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:34:33] Torkel Norling: So, so if he, if he tracks on the, on the middle, not on the middle, of course on the road, he tracks within nose.

More or less on the, on the, uh, surface. Uh, if, if she, uh, uh, meets a scent of a, uh, not wounded animal, she won't leave the asphalt. Uh, so I can, I can quite easily [00:35:00] read her behavior and see what, what's happening. But let's say after she making marking, make a circle and keep on tracking, make marking, keep on tracking, that was say while we're not hit by car, while we're not hit by car.

And the third time she might do a marking and then out in the terrain that's the right. 

[00:35:22] Travis Bader: Interesting. 

[00:35:23] Torkel Norling: And then I get a hundred percent start and then. I write quite a lot of this because the start is very underestimated. It's, it's very, very important part of, of, uh, the whole tracking mission. If you can't think, so, if you're uncertain from the beginning, you, you will be uncertain, uh, through the whole, uh, tracking part and you, you will not succeed as often.

Uh, but then, then she, she's, she told me that here is, uh, an animal that is hit by a car and then that part is over, and [00:36:00] then I have to choose how to continue. And then I might, uh, if she shows me the animal is nearby dead or so bad, the wound that it's nearby, I let her do the rest threat to the animal and maybe shoot it in, in a ditch or nearby.

[00:36:20] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:36:22] Torkel Norling: Because if I, uh, uh, and, and otherwise. I often change to the licia that that is a, a a a dog bed at, at, uh, dating, you know, at, at mm-hmm. Pumping an animal. Uh, uh, uh, but if I, if I always change to the Licia, then, uh, sent ho won't be rewarded for her effort. 

[00:36:49] Travis Bader: Oh yeah. I 

[00:36:50] Torkel Norling: get, 

[00:36:51] Travis Bader: I always gotta play that 

[00:36:52] Torkel Norling: game.

Sometimes, uh, you get the reward for, uh, her effort and, um, and then we, then we [00:37:00] keep on tracking until we flush the animal or until we can see by the, uh, um, behavior of the dog that we are probably near the animal. It also has to do with the terrain. And then, or we feel flush the animal. We can hear it, it jumping up somewhere.

And of course if you, you get, you get a shot there, we kill it. It's mm-hmm. That, that's of course. But if we don't, and when it comes to wild boar, for example, we very seldom see the animal when it flush because they, they're, they are in such a dense terrain. 

[00:37:38] Travis Bader: Sure. Yeah. 

[00:37:39] Torkel Norling: So they will hear us long before we, we hear them, uh, getting up.

So they are on their feet already, so I must, I might be able to read the dog and the Leica says, Tokyo, it's on, its, it's, it's running. And then I let it loose and then, then it follow it [00:38:00] loose and mm-hmm. Until it, it, it finds it, and then it works for it. As long as it take, it might take you like 10 hours, but often less and often in extremely tight it dense terrain, you know?

[00:38:13] Travis Bader: So in that situation, you'd want the dogs to bay the animal. Yeah. And keep it at bay until you, so, okay. You guys have lys, you have wolves, you've got brown bear. 

[00:38:24] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:25] Travis Bader: You've got wild boar and they get pretty darn big with big tusks coming up on a wounded animals, not for the faint of heart. Have you ever had any close calls?

[00:38:36] Torkel Norling: Yes, I have. I have. And, and, uh, that is very interesting. Uh, part, uh, when I worked with the, uh, with the book, I interviewed a lot of people and, uh, I realized quite early that the mentality part was a very big part of that, uh, that differed [00:39:00] the good from the best, from the only good, you know, good from great.

Yes. The, the attitude is a very important part of, of, uh, these, these things. Uh, and I also, I think I mentioned it for you, we talked last time, I, I interviewed when I realized that we have so much in common with military people, for example. 

[00:39:27] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:28] Torkel Norling: And the, the things we have in common is that, uh, we have, uh, quite slow activity when tracking, following a dog in a line in the middle of the night with a headlamp, hour after hour.

That's very slow, not very exciting, um, activity. But then the whole world might explode, you know, with a, suddenly we flush an animal [00:40:00] jumps up, uh, or might even be, uh, uh, attacking, uh, boar or, or bear. And then we must, must make the right decision in, in half a second. And, and it must be the right decision because it's life and death.

We have life and death in our hand, in, in our gum. So, so it's very important, uh, that you, you do, um, the right thing. And, and one, one thing that started me, so started, my, my thinking, uh, about this was, uh, some years ago when we had a, um, wounded brown bear, quite large bear, and, uh, I had a, a like them, um, very interesting.

Like, uh, called, uh, and uh. He barked at this brown bear for, for [00:41:00] quite long, and it was so dense. I, I, I couldn't see, like I could see like this far. 

[00:41:07] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:07] Torkel Norling: And he, he barked for, for a long time and suddenly I felt that the wind changed. So I got the wind in my, my back. I stood there and hoping for, I saw the dog, but I didn't see the bear.

Sometimes the bear's head came up like this far away from the dog's nose and then it back holy he crow and then it back 

[00:41:29] Travis Bader: like inches. 

[00:41:30] Torkel Norling: Yeah. Yeah. And then it backed into the, the, the dance and the dog, uh, kept on barking and suddenly after the wind changed, uh, and the wind was towards the, the, the, uh, big bear.

[00:41:43] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:44] Torkel Norling: I can hear. Suddenly I could hear the, the bear coming at me. In full speed, and it was so dense. Uh, so I didn't, I couldn't see anything, so I couldn't be sure if it was a, uh, a false attack or [00:42:00] not, of course. But the dog mm-hmm. Was certain, uh, uh, mo the monster is in bad trouble. I must save him. So he jumped the bear with no hesitation at all.

So he jumped the bear and, and, uh, and, uh, I could just hear them fighting. 

[00:42:18] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:18] Torkel Norling: And then it was, uh, silent and the dog came crawling towards me in a quite bad state. Mm. And he survived. But, but he, he was, uh, not looking too good, but, uh, so he, he, he was, uh, driven to the, the, that, uh, and survived. But he, he, you know, his, his stomach, uh, the, the membrane or his stomach was broken.

[00:42:43] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:44] Torkel Norling: So he wouldn't survive, uh, two days. But anyway, um, and he didn't hesitate at all. He satisfied his life immediately. It's 

[00:42:54] Travis Bader: to save yours. 

[00:42:55] Torkel Norling: Yeah, it's fantastic. Uh, anyway, uh, later it was dark. Uh, [00:43:00] it was becoming dark and I was on the road and a a, a friend of mine, uh, one of the most, uh, uh, experienced, uh, brown bear hunters in Sweden, uh, RAs, it's called Rasmus.

Uh, his plot town was barking on the, on the, on the, uh, wounded bear. It was wounded from before. And, uh, I stood on the, on the, on the road, a narrow road in the middle of the forest, and it was like black forest on each side. It was black because the sun was down, you know, so I had some light on the middle of the road, and I heard, uh, the, the dog stopped barking suddenly.

And, you know, uh mm-hmm. Then, then you should, uh, be ready. And I heard the, the, the bear coming closer and closer. You, you know, it sounds like, uh, uh, uh mm-hmm. That the bears bear running sound. It came closer. And then my mind got into a, a very interesting [00:44:00] state. That was, that, that was, that made me think about this much afterwards.

I was absolutely a hundred percent sure that the bear is dead. I will shoot the bear. No problem at all. It was really big bear. Very, mm-hmm. It was very, very angry bear. Uh, and it came closer and closer, uh, uh, in the black forest. And I thought, I let it up on the middle of the, of the road because it's bit lighter.

I don't shoot too early. I, I will have a, it'll be a perfect shot, so I let it, I will let it up on the middle of the road. So I put, put up my gun. I had like a drilling, you know what the drilling is? 

[00:44:44] Travis Bader: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:44:45] Torkel Norling: And it, the multi 

[00:44:46] Travis Bader: barrels. 

[00:44:47] Torkel Norling: Yeah. And it two right. For barrels and, and one shotgun barrel. 

[00:44:50] Travis Bader: That's right.

Uh, 

[00:44:51] Torkel Norling: and I, I put it, uh, up on my shoulder, the gun, and I heard the bear coming closer and closer and closer, and [00:45:00] suddenly it broke out from the black, absolutely black forest. And I had my gun up, not on the bear, but, but on the middle of the road. But immediately when the bear saw me, it was like 30 meters, like 30 odds from it attacked immediately.

You know, when, a, you might know this, but when a brown bear make a fake attack. It's waving with its arm, its arms, and look, try to look as big as possible, like a mm-hmm. A mother with a, with a couch, you know? Yeah. Want to look big and scary, but if a bear wants to kill you or kill it's heads down and it just goes doesn wave and it is low, it's like a vacuum cleaner.

Mm-hmm. It's low on the ground and extremely fast. 

[00:45:49] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:50] Torkel Norling: Ben Johnson would stand still compared to this. And, um, so it, it attacked immediately and I just change the, [00:46:00] the, the, the gun and shot, uh, uh, hit it above the right eye and kill it, and it lay like two meters in front of me in, in the middle of a step.

And afterwards I was totally. I didn't treble on my hands or, or anything else. Totally calm. And the other came to me, oh my God, uh, we must sit down. And I was a bit angry at them because I have a gun. I mean, how, how, how, how big it can be. It was like two meters away. It's Sure, 

[00:46:35] Travis Bader: sure. 

[00:46:36] Torkel Norling: I was so sure of the outcome all through it.

And that was very interesting because I, I was, I mean, it, I was less than half a second from dying and I didn't, I didn't get stressed over it. And the bear would, would have killed me. Definitely. Uh, a brown belt. Sure. But I mean, you can't defend yourself and if it's on top of you, [00:47:00] you smoked. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I was so focused.

It, it, it was very, and I, I understand you. Uh, we have a saying in Sweden, uh. W we, we talk about when, when your view is narrowed down, when you, uh, or when you are in a life threatening situation. Mm-hmm. Um, you, you understand what I mean? You, you, you just mm-hmm. See what's important, the tunnel vision, survival, tunnel vision.

Exactly. Uh, and of course I understand that's what it's about, but I would, I, I want to understand why and how. 

[00:47:41] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:42] Torkel Norling: And why did I react that way? I'm not the coolest person in the world, but in that instance, I was in that mm-hmm. That's two second of my lives. 

[00:47:54] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:47:54] Torkel Norling: So I wanted to understand, and I dig, dig quite deep into that, [00:48:00] and, and, and got some very interesting information from, from people when, when it came to, to stress reaction, what you can do about it and, uh, what's in your personality.

And you can really do a lot of things about it. And this is exactly what the, uh, like the, the special forces guys, I, I talked to, uh, one American and one, one Swedish, uh, uh, guy. Exactly what they, they said, uh, this is the important part. Uh, 

[00:48:33] Travis Bader: well, I'm, I'm glad you, I, you probably noticed I'm taking a bunch of notes and I'm glad you're going here with this 'cause you've brought up the mental aspect and stress reactions and, um, the sort of the psychology behind it a few times.

And I've, I've been writing it down every time you take it down. 'cause I know you've got some interesting thoughts on this one. And I, and I find it. I find it. Um, so [00:49:00] what skiing and snowboarding and riding motorcycles has taught me is that you will go where you look. Mm-hmm. So if I want, if I'm going fast and I'm going through the trees and I think about the trees, I'll probably hit the trees.

Yeah. If I think about all the gaps in between the trees, I'm gonna hit those gaps in between the trees. I just start eliminating all of the things that are negative and I just look at the positive where I want to go. Mm-hmm. It sounds like in that situation you eliminated all the what ifs and you just looked at the, what I need to do, I need to put one round where it counts.

Mm-hmm. And here's my time period. The people who I find are negatively affected by a situation like that will ruminate on the what could have happened, even though they survived it afterwards, they'll take a look at, and that might be a natural stress response that the body starts looking at it afterwards.

Words, personally, I find. Uh, in talking with people who survived bear attacks, [00:50:00] um, in horrific accidents and maulings or animal encounters, the one common thread that I found is that in the moment these survivors had the same mentality. They were singularly focused. One guy was in the mouth of the grizzly bear when he had to fight it off with his pocket knife and horrific injuries sim similar to the injuries your dog had from the bear.

And then he had to get on a bicycle and, and peddle his way back with his one good leg for seven kilometers to, uh, held. Get his own evacuation, however calm, cool, and collected as he was in the time talking about it afterwards. There is definitely a psychophysiological response that his mind was processing and his body was working out.

Perhaps he deprived himself in the moment for survival's sake, but the moment wasn't done with him [00:51:00] because it was coming out in the form of tears and shaking and in, in the relaying of the story. Now he can talk about the story and he's worked all of that stuff out. 

[00:51:10] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:11] Travis Bader: I, I wonder, I'm interested to hear about your stress response, the studies you've done on stress response, and if you find that maybe you feel a bit more after the fact than you do in the moment.

[00:51:24] Torkel Norling: Uh, I, I haven't got any, uh, uh, late responses to it, uh, uh, uh, to this situation at all. But I think that that, uh, uh, that I can't control. If, if I wake up some, uh, in, in two years, in the middle of the night, I might wake up in the middle of the night and and be being scared of beds for the, I I can't, I can't control that from now, now, but, but what, uh, I've seen when talking to, to, to a lot of people, uh, [00:52:00] one model that that's interesting is like, like stairs, you know, like this.

Uh, and that was actually, uh, uh, like a thought to police man that ha have, uh, explained how they reason about this. Uh, I use this model. It's, it's a great model. Uh, and they, uh, have this stair model and say that you, if something happens, you are in situation. Uh, and, uh. With one stress level and something happens.

Anything, uh, you, you take one stair up, one step up the stairs, okay. And on the top of the stairs, that's red. Then, then, then you lost control. That's total panic. You don't know what you do. That's where you, you like, kill your partner or shoot your dog and die yourself. Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:52] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:52] Torkel Norling: That you don't want to get there.

But most people, I guess this is a bit simplified, but most people, [00:53:00] eh, do the same amount of stepping up the stairs. Like in a certain situation, you might get two steps up. 

[00:53:12] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:14] Torkel Norling: So the, the method is to start as low as possible to start as a, as a low, uh, stress level as possible. So you, because you will get more, more stress and uh, and there are quite a lot you can do about this, uh, beside your personality because you, that you're born with.

But some things you can do is what the military doing a lot that, that confront, confront what might be the problem in the future. So if I just go to the Sioux a lot, look at watch documentaries about bear, [00:54:00] uh, have bear targets at the shooting range, uh, um, talked about bear hunting a lot. Uh, have a, a good uh, uh.

Imagination. So I can, I can in my mind, uh, stand in my living room and, and hunting bears in, in my mind, all this makes me more comfortable, comfortable with the situation around bears. And so everything is, and realistic training is very, very important also. And, and see all these animals. And I think one thing that probably in that situation I explained was very important was how many times I've done the exactly same thing with wild boar.

[00:54:55] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:54:56] Torkel Norling: So the difference isn't that big. [00:55:00] It'll hurt too if the wild boar runs into you. Sure. But it doesn't because I shoot it not only so many times. So I quite cool in that situation. Uh, you know. We talk about, especially at least in Swedish, about when, when you are in a, in a life-threatening situation, your brain, uh, backs, uh, you see your, your, do you have, do you have a saying about that?

You see life in review. 

[00:55:29] Travis Bader: Yeah. They, they say that you can see your life flash before your eyes. Um, 

[00:55:33] Torkel Norling: yeah, exactly. And 

[00:55:35] Travis Bader: I, I think your neurons are firing so fast that you're seeing lots of things. And I think that's one way that people have articulated it's their life flashing before their eyes. But it, I don't know.

I, I think it might be, uh, that might be a simplistic way of looking at it. 

[00:55:48] Torkel Norling: I, I think so too. But one way to explain that why that happens is that maybe your life, your brain [00:56:00] is looking, it, it has got like one second to do this. So it's looking for similar experiences that you survived. And if it's ing something similar.

The brain says, well, that time I, I survived by doing this and that, and then Interesting. Then I, I do it. And, and, and that is interesting. And one other thing that I find very important is, uh, the ability to be safe in, in very, very close combat situations, so to say. Because if, uh, so one of the best exercises for this, exactly what we are talking about, being attacked by a very angry animal, is to not shoot on targets far away, but [00:57:00] shoot on simple objects very near almost.

Mm-hmm. At your feet. Understand. Mm-hmm. Just put things up, shoot one, one shot there, and one shot there, and one shot there, and, and, and then reload and talk to my friends and shot there very nearby, please. Mm-hmm. What happens in my brain there then is that I, uh, well, it's a, it's a quite risky, scary situation with my dogs barking at the angry wounded wild boar in North Europe's densest place.

[00:57:35] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:36] Torkel Norling: But I can go in there anyway because I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm know that I can, I'm safe. It's a safe area around my feet. Nothing will, will get it. Right. 

[00:57:47] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:57:48] Torkel Norling: I, I, I move around with, with a safe, uh, you know, with a fence around me because I have a Yes. And, and, and, uh. So that kind of training is very, very [00:58:00] important.

Not precision, but just do it, be used to shoot very nearby. So I'm very safe in all situations when I have a gun. 

[00:58:11] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:11] Torkel Norling: You understand? Uh, because I can see that there are people that are much tougher than I am when they're not having a gun in this situation. 

[00:58:23] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:23] Torkel Norling: Understand? Mm-hmm. I've been tracking, uh, brown bear quite a lot.

Uh, brown Bear with GPS collars on. 

[00:58:32] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:58:32] Torkel Norling: And then you're not allowed to have a gun. 

[00:58:35] Travis Bader: You're not allowed to have a gun if you're tracking a GPS color? 

[00:58:38] Torkel Norling: No. No. It, it's tracking for training. For for 

[00:58:40] Travis Bader: training. 

[00:58:41] Torkel Norling: Gotcha. Yeah. It's, but, but you, you, you have a, you have a specific bears with with colors GPS color. Yeah.

Then, then you track them. Then. I'm not, I'm not scared at all, but I have a. Plenty of respect for, for the best. Sure. And if the, the don [00:59:00] mark that now we get into a dense area and the bear is near that, I'm not that keen to, to keep on tracking without the gum. 

[00:59:11] Travis Bader: No. Do 

[00:59:11] Torkel Norling: you carry a spray? Unless just, you know, so, so, um, I use the gown training to be a brave person.

[00:59:23] Travis Bader: I can see that. 

[00:59:25] Torkel Norling: You, you understand what I mean? I, I use the, the, this kind of training to be able to, to handle these situations 

[00:59:31] Travis Bader: Well, it's a psychological tool and you know, what do they say God made Man, Sam Colt made man equal. 

[00:59:37] Torkel Norling: Yeah. 

[00:59:37] Travis Bader: Well, same thing happens. You got the rifle. You, it's a great equalizer with a, uh, a charging bear.

If you can get a central nervous system shot, sp spine, brain, uh, you're, you're gonna drop it like that. You don't have a good shot. They can suck up a lot of rounds before they stop. Yeah. So, ha having the confidence of knowing that you could put rounds where they [01:00:00] depend in a stressful situation, and then the practice to back that up, I can definitely see that psychological fence bubble that you build around yourself.

[01:00:09] Torkel Norling: Yeah. 

[01:00:10] Travis Bader: And it starts allowing you to see between the trees as opposed to looking at the trees. 

[01:00:16] Torkel Norling: And that also makes me more keen to walk into a situation that, that is potentially dangerous. Mm-hmm. Because I, I walk with my safety bubble all the way. Mm-hmm. So I, I, I, I don't have problems with going near the danger.

Mm-hmm. So, so that, that, that, that, that works, uh, quite well. And, but I would say that one, one of the, uh, things that are most. Important and efficient when it comes to, to be, be better at handling. Stress is [01:01:00] good physi. 

[01:01:02] Travis Bader: I agree. Uh, you can change your, your mental with your physicality. 

[01:01:08] Torkel Norling: Definitely. Uh, if you like I am, uh, out in the middle of the night and it's raining and it's cold, and you're miserable.

You should be miserable because it's a miserable situation. Sure. And, and, uh, and you have kept on tracking, tracking, tracking that, uh, and the hours goes by. Mm-hmm. And that then you feel that, I might be wrong, we might be following a, a, a, a fresh animal, you know, or, or something is wrong if you have bad fatigue or stamina.

The, you know, the brain looks for reasons to quit. 

[01:01:55] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:56] Torkel Norling: What, uh, we try to persuade you [01:02:00] to, to, to, to quit. Yes. And that you can see all the time, uh, um, people having very far farfetched explanations why the animal might survive. 

[01:02:14] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:02:16] Torkel Norling: And that is bullshit as you, you can't have, there are instances where you, uh, uh, where you, for example, find a drop of blood that when the animal, uh, uh, will survive.

But, uh, your attitude toward the whole thing must be that if you have indication that animal is wounded and you bought the, the shoot bought, uh, uh, a very expensive gun, trained his. Or her life was focused on shooting this trophy animal or something. Of course you must, you must, uh, have the attitude that the animal is hit and then you can't try [01:03:00] to find a, uh, and, and if you have no stamina at all, and, uh, a bad attitude, I would say also the brain search for reasons to, to get home to quit.

That's right. And get in bed. And especially in the night, uh, when, and you tried it, it's 

[01:03:17] Travis Bader: dark and it's cold. 

[01:03:19] Torkel Norling: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, uh, and that is interesting. And, and, and that is partly a different thing than the stress reaction thing. The, the thing with attitude, because that's also a thing I, I seen with the people, you know, I don't think I mentioned, but which people I interviewed, I tried to find trackers in the world that were famous, not for.

Being on, on social medias, but for solving more nutrients than others. Even if they use what looks like the same methods and same dogs, but [01:04:00] you know, the, the, the, the doers always people, when you fish, the people that get more fish than others, uhhuh, but we have the same, same fly or the same fly rod or, or same equipment, you know, but the, and I try to find those and interview them and see what do these very special people have in common.

And uh, and the big thing is not which dog breeds they have or what gun they use, that it's more due to the attitude and, and that, that there, these special forces guys I talked about, they said mm-hmm. Totally. You are on the right track here because it's a, it's an, uh, this. Never quitting attitude. It's so important.

Mm-hmm. Um, and it is almost a bit embarrassing to mention it because all interviews with, with you [01:05:00] done interviews with special forces guys. I think I 

[01:05:02] Travis Bader: have. Yes. 

[01:05:02] Torkel Norling: Yeah. And they're all, always, all of them talk about, uh, the most important thing my father told me. Never quit, son, you mm-hmm. Hear that story all the time, but it's true.

It's so true. You, you are, and you can, you can work with that attitude and you can, if you, you two, if you two friends working, you, you can tell each other, remind each other of the importance of this attitude. Of course, we should never quit. Uh uh. So that at, if you find a drop of blood, and if I go to to track more than general reason, if you find one drop of blood.

Which you not always find in the traffic situation. So that's a different be, be, be, uh, if you compare traffic accidents with hunting accidents, hunting accidents. If you hit the animal, there will [01:06:00] be blood somewhere. 

[01:06:01] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:02] Torkel Norling: Just, uh, thing of finding it. But if you have one drop of blood, then attitude must be that there is a wounded animal somewhere in the forest.

It hasn't magically disappeared, it is somewhere. Mm-hmm. And there is always a way to find it. 

[01:06:20] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:21] Torkel Norling: There must be a way to find it too then. And then, then, uh, what you can do is to break it down into steps. So, and I tried to, to be, because what, what I tried to do is, uh, as I explained when it came to this, uh, uh, on the road.

Accident with my, the dog, just working on the asphalt, uh, situation. Uh, what you can do is break down into steps and the first step is to find the, the start. That's the whole mission. 

[01:06:55] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:56] Torkel Norling: Just find a start. When I have found the start, and that's [01:07:00] over. Might have a drink of energy, drink or, or coffee or water.

And then next part starts, and next part is following a track. And that's the only limit I have, follow a track. Because if I thought just follow the track, I will always, uh, the track always ends with, it'll 

[01:07:22] Travis Bader: always lead somewhere. 

[01:07:24] Torkel Norling: Exactly. Always. Uh, and then I flush the animal or come to, to the animal in some form.

And that mission is over, then it's about killing animal if it's wounded. Mm. And then everything is about that. And, and you can see with the best per, uh, people here, they have no problem with saying, we, we can't get any further. All of us do, uh, make mistakes. We have, uh, bad days. And, and it's about [01:08:00] forest, about, about leading animals.

You can't know exactly what will happen and, and you do mistakes. But what they will say that I think we, we won't get any fur further here. Let's start from the beginning. Let's go all the way back and start from the beginning and, mm-hmm. That's interesting because the dog has no problem with that. But you, and I think it's awful.

You know, when you, you sure you drive to, to, to a, a place. With like children and stuff and realize that you forgot the phone at the, the gas station and go back. It's, it's terrible to do that. Oh, 

[01:08:43] Travis Bader: it's just a mental thing. 

[01:08:44] Torkel Norling: Yeah. But yeah, it's only meant to be because it's just 45 minutes of your life, it's nothing.

So they go, they go back and start from the beginning, and then they only have one single mission. Just one [01:09:00] mission. And that is to find the place where you made the mistake last time. That's the only thing. And so that's, that's one place and one place on the machines not to find an animal. When you start from the beginning, the, the machine is to start where you went into.

You got trouble the last time because they, that's the only thing you know, that you made a mistake the last time. So you just looking for the mistake. So I really 

[01:09:26] Travis Bader: like how you, 

[01:09:27] Torkel Norling: yeah. 

[01:09:28] Travis Bader: I was just gonna say, I really like how you compartmentalize that because it makes it digestible and I think people get overwhelmed when they look at, well, I'm not finding the animal, maybe I give up.

And the giving up part, having talked with special forces people and people who train individuals for special forces, uh, it was told to me, he says, you know, people don't just give up. They don't just stop. They'll, they'll play it out in their head a few different times, what it looks like. They'll try it, offer size and see what it feels like.

They might verbalize [01:10:00] it to a friend or somebody else, well, you know, I don't know about this or that. And they see how the reaction is. And there's all of these stages that happen before they give up. And once you're aware of that. And you're aware of the negative self-talk you might be coming with, you can quickly nip that in the bud and go back to your compartmentalized process of, hold on a second.

I haven't finished this one simple step. I'll just take a look at this step. Maybe it's time for Feca. Have a little reset and then, and then, uh, uh, get on with that process. 

[01:10:31] Torkel Norling: Yeah, that's right. Uh, and, uh, and therefore, uh, one, uh, of the instances when I and others in my situation says no to admission is when we don't have, if it's not it, if it won't be as as we expected it to be.

And that's common. 

[01:10:57] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:58] Torkel Norling: I don't have the time. [01:11:00] If it, if the time will drag out a lot, then I have this meeting 

[01:11:05] Travis Bader: mm-hmm. 

[01:11:06] Torkel Norling: In the morning. And then I said, no, I, I, I can't do it because I must have time even for, for the things that go wrong. Mm-hmm. And if it's, it, it turns out to be, I thought it was, it would be dead within 500 meters, but it turns out to be, to, to be hitting in the jaw and then we Right.

And should I, I let that, that jaw hit, which is the worst, uh, uh, injury of them all, uh, just suffer just because I have a meeting in the morning that that's better to, to say no to, to the mission, let someone else do it, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, so, so, um, and, and when, when, if I just go back to the tracking part because, uh, among trackers, the tracking is, and, and that is, that is also a [01:12:00] misunderstanding that tracking.

We have, we don't have the right, the best words for describing this activity because tracking is, I mean, that's following a dog with a line that's just the part of this thing that I do that's killing suffering animals that has been, uh, wounded by human activities, driving a car and, and shooting. And, and, um, so the tracking part is very important to, to understand that, that I talked about this, this, when you track, you only have one mission, and that's to keep on tracking to, to keep yourself and the dog in the, in the center of the track.

That's the only thing you have to do. And then you shouldn't, your, your mission is not to measure how long the track will be. The mission is just to follow the track. So you, you don't care about how long the track will. You understand? 

[01:12:58] Travis Bader: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:59] Torkel Norling: So, so it, [01:13:00] it, it can be like a hundred miles. It there is Sure.

But you don't care because that's not the mission. The mission is, I'm not here to, to, to, to measure how long track I did last night. I'm here to follow a track just, and then you get, you get another mindset because then distance has nothing to do with it. 

[01:13:23] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:13:25] Torkel Norling: Uh, so, so, um, but 

[01:13:27] Travis Bader: I like that. 

[01:13:28] Torkel Norling: Yeah. But then, but your question, how recommendations for people not having dogs?

I don't have any good recommendations because you can't do a, a very efficient job. Uh, but there are definitely ways to get the dog being much more efficient when it comes to, to these parts. 

[01:13:53] Travis Bader: So. I, I think despite you saying you don't have recommendations, what you talked about there of the mindset [01:14:00] equally applies to an individual without a dog.

Yeah. Like, I'll, I'll carry flagging tape in my bin pouch. 

[01:14:06] Torkel Norling: Yeah. 

[01:14:07] Travis Bader: I will, I will GPS mark or mark out where I was when I took a shot. I will mark out how far away I was and, and where, where the animal, uh, should have gone down, but maybe the shot wasn't perfect, and so it ran. 

[01:14:22] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:22] Travis Bader: And so I've got all of these marks so I know where I'm starting and I flag it out.

Then I just, slowly in my answer, I'm looking for blood trails and what the blood looks like. I'm looking to see if it's frothy, if it's dark, if it's, uh, the elevation of the blood as it hits the, uh, the branches and stuff to gimme an indication of, okay, uh, where, where my shot is. But if I just take that and as opposed to saying I'm here to find the animal, which of course is my goal, but my, my goal here is now just to track the direction, just to look for blood.

And just, just to keep my ears open as I go through. It's not to do anything with the animal. 'cause that part hasn't [01:15:00] happened yet. Like, I think that's a valuable piece of the puzzle. 'cause I do know a lot of people will give up and they'll give up quickly. Mm-hmm. I remember I was on a hunt and a guy took a shot at a moose and it was, I mean, I don't know, it was, maybe it was new to hunting, maybe it was, um, I don't know what it was.

Maybe his nerves, something going on with him. But he took a offhand shooting position, standing up shot at a moose. We found some blood trail. They figure it just skiffed off the back and, um, um, and, and off it went. But, uh, I mean we spent the rest of the day looking and uh, finally came to the conclusion that, okay, I.

We're, we're not finding this thing. It's, it's a, uh, it's an animal that's been shot. Maybe if we had da dogs, it'd be a different story. But 

[01:15:52] Torkel Norling: all 

[01:15:52] Travis Bader: the indicators 

[01:15:53] Torkel Norling: was it, was it, was it a a, a bull moose store 

[01:15:56] Travis Bader: Was a bull moose 

[01:15:58] Torkel Norling: alone, nor did you have [01:16:00] many at the, at the same place. 

[01:16:04] Travis Bader: Uh, um, well, in the area is known for its moose and yes, there are other hunters pulling moose out.

And uh, uh, this was, uh, a large bull moose that, uh, my son and I found, but we didn't have a bull moose tag. We could only go for a spike fork moose. But people back at camp, they had a bull moose tag. So we booked back to camp real quick. Well, I, my son kept one at bay and. Let the other fellow come on in and do his thing.

And we flushed it out, my son and I, and came out onto a, a logging road, and we heard the boom. I thought, Hey, this is fantastic. And that, uh, it, it wasn't a good shot. Actually. We did a podcast about that, uh, one of the early podcasts I did here. But, uh, we never, we never did find it. And the person who took the shot and the other person who was there who witnessed it, uh, were of the assumption that the shot was high and it was just grazed [01:17:00] off the back.

[01:17:00] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very interesting. Why I ask is because I think most, uh, tracking is very interesting and, and I would say not, it's not bragging at all, but I would say in that, that what you described described there with a good dog and, and I would say one of the best dogs there would be, uh, like a spit.

Scandinavian, like, like, uh, or well bred that you're trained for tracking. Mm. You almost have a hundred percent success rate in that instance, but if you're not allowed to use it, it's, it won't help, of course. But, but, uh, if, if it had been in Sweden, uh mm-hmm. If I could work with that dog, and it could be, it could work alone for many hours Mm.

Without, uh, being eaten by a wolf or killed [01:18:00] by a car 

[01:18:00] Travis Bader: mm-hmm. 

[01:18:01] Torkel Norling: Then, uh, you would have a, a very high success rate on, on that track, lower on wild boar, because wild boar is, it's much more difficult. 

[01:18:10] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:18:11] Torkel Norling: If 

[01:18:11] Travis Bader: I. If I understand it correctly, like we can't use drones for hunting, and that includes finding an animal that's, uh, been shot and you're trying to find, but you guys can basically pull out all stops after the shot's fired when you're looking for a wounded animal.

Is that correct? Am my assumption there? You can basically do anything. 

[01:18:32] Torkel Norling: Yeah. It's basically correct. Of course. We, we have, uh, and, and that applies even more on, on a traffic situation because we're then, we have special laws then I can walk into then now, and no area is restricted for me, uh, when it comes to, because I work for the police for the, for the state, so to say.

Mm-hmm. Uh, so I mean, a police that follows, uh, uh, a rob can go anywhere of course. Sure. And, and, [01:19:00] and so, so can I, uh, there's some restrictions of course, and there's some mm-hmm. 

[01:19:04] Travis Bader: Of 

[01:19:05] Torkel Norling: military areas. When they shoot, especially now in these troubling days, they, they have, uh, like shooting areas with, with a train.

So this train Sure. All the time. And you, you can't get in there because you, you step on a mine or something. 

[01:19:21] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:21] Torkel Norling: But otherwise, otherwise you actually feel, but, and with can comes to, to hunting, tracking's almost the same thing. But if you are, let's say you, your, your, uh, shot, uh, you wounded and moves and it goes into another, uh, hunting right area where you don't have the right to hunt, you must inform the, the person owning the hunting right there.

Uh, uh, but if, let's say that you, uh, the, the most stops 50 meters, uh, over the, the [01:20:00] border into that area, and it's, it's wounded obviously. Mm-hmm. With suffering, you can just go in there and kill it. It's not No problem. Then, then you makes sense you just to explain that I, I, I think that I, I would reduce the suffering by doing that.

[01:20:14] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Are you allowed to use night vision and thermal and things like that? 

[01:20:19] Torkel Norling: Everything in that, uh, but for some reason not, uh, on, uh, the big predator predators 

[01:20:28] Travis Bader: really. 

[01:20:29] Torkel Norling: That that's an old law that some, you know, some laws are written far back. Okay. Yeah. I get it. Also, we, we have laws written before we got any wild war, and we have definitely laws written before we got this months of, of the, of the, of the, you know, we have a lot of ground there.

Uh, we have a lot of links. We have a lot of, of Wolf and the loss mm-hmm. Are not fully adapted to that. 

[01:20:55] Travis Bader: Well, what I found interesting, so my very first hunt, like I said, it was outside [01:21:00] Mora, uh, in Solaron, and they had, uh, one fellow, and he was designated the leader of the hunt. Okay. I don't know what, uh, certifications or titles I got the sense there wasn't anything special other than every one of the group says, okay, this year, this guy, he's, he's the most experienced, and maybe he does it every year.

Mm. But he's, you know, the hunt master, the leader of the hunt. So everyone's on the radios and they can say what animals can be shot if they're being driven out, and if you take, and you can only take so many. 

[01:21:30] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:31] Travis Bader: And I, well, do you have to buy tags for these? And they said, well, no, it's included in the, in the allotment of how you do this.

[01:21:38] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:38] Travis Bader: Okay. Well, like how do you. Like, do you have conservation officers like here in North America, we'll have special police officers, peace officers. They're armed and they're in charge of looking after fish and wildlife, making sure people aren't poaching or taking too many. And they're like, well no, we've got the [01:22:00] police.

If the police need to be involved, they're involved in something. But no, we don't have a special conservation division. So, well, how do you know how many you've taken and like how they allot for that? Oh, they just tell us how many, what the management says, and we, at the end of the year, we show them, we just keep track and we give it to them.

And from a North American standpoint, uh, that seems completely foreign. And you just say like, everyone would abuse that process. Like there's no checks and balances. It seems like everyone thinks the only reason a lot of people aren't doing things offside is because of the consequence of the law behind it.

Whereas it seems somehow in the socialist, and I, it's not socialist, but everyone calls Sweden kind of a, I think you're a more of a capitalistic um, society, but they, they say somehow you guys have been able to socially engineer a program that works for the management and keeps everyone accountable at the same time.

Is that, [01:23:00] am I somewhat on track here? 

[01:23:01] Torkel Norling: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely true. But of course there are different people out there and some people abuse laws by nature. Of course, of course. But in this areas you talk about they are very keen on having a, a, a lot of animal and the right amount. So they don't want, they don't want to shoot too much.

[01:23:22] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:23:22] Torkel Norling: Of course. Not be, because they might have that same hunting area for, for like their whole life. You know, so, so, so, so that's, that of course makes them them less willing to, to, to abuse the laws. But the, the, the people of course, uh, they're not, I, I wouldn't say no, but they're, they have sometimes, especially during the, the hunt, they're big predator hunting, uh, uh, for like bear, very regulated, what you're allowed to do, not allowed to do.

You're not allowed to have more than two dogs while hunting bears. Uh, and a lot of, [01:24:00] of, uh, rules around it. Then the police might show up, you know, um, controlling inspection if you're drunk or, or, uh, if you have the right licenses and, and stuff. And, and when you shoot a bear, it's changed a little because we, we shoot so many bears nowadays, but, uh, when you shoot a bear, normally you call, you have a license in a big area.

Like, uh, like, uh, like if. Quarter of Sweden can be an area, and let's say you have 60 bears to shoot in that area, then you, it is very regulated, very well functioning. You have to phone, when you shoot the bear, you have to phone a number before you start your phone. The nu number in here that, well, it's still 37 bears on the license, and then you shoot the bear and you report it.

Say, well, congratulations. We will send a a, a person coming out and taking samples and stuff. [01:25:00] 

[01:25:00] Travis Bader: Interesting. 

[01:25:01] Torkel Norling: And then you're not allowed to move the bear. It's, it's got a little more flexible now because it's so many bears and it's the bear is way in the forest. This person have to like check. Let's say five bears, 10 bears that day.

So we can't walk like 10 kilometers. Sure. You can bring it out. And, and that's good for you too, because a mist won't get spoiled if Yes. The whole while you're 

[01:25:26] Travis Bader: waiting 

[01:25:28] Torkel Norling: and, and the weight, the bear and, and the, and check a lot of things, and then everything is okay, uh, no problem. But if, if that person sent by the government, so to say, uh, feel that something is not right, then you, you are in trouble.

Of course. If you're not allowed to let, let's say you, you, if you, if you shoot, uh, uh, what do you call? So no call, call your mother. 

[01:25:57] Travis Bader: So 

[01:25:58] Torkel Norling: So the mother bear? [01:26:00] Yes. 

[01:26:00] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:26:00] Torkel Norling: And, uh, so with milk, 

[01:26:04] Travis Bader: yes. Okay. 

[01:26:06] Torkel Norling: Not very good. That's illegal. And, and, and so, so when they, they do the test, they test for milk, and then you, you have problems, but of course, 

[01:26:16] Travis Bader: interesting.

[01:26:18] Torkel Norling: Uh, of course you don't want to shoot that, you don't want to shoot this out. 

[01:26:22] Travis Bader: Ray, we've, we've, we've got a rule here that you're not allowed to shoot any bear that's in the company of others because you 

[01:26:29] Torkel Norling: don't know the same here, the same, the same here. But what what can happen is that the, the sow, uh, puts the, the camps up in the, of the tree.

That's right. Then take home the, the following dog, and then you get hunt for two hours on the, so, and then you shoot it. And, and the, that situation, you don't want to, to come into that situation if you, if you're a good hunter, of course, with it. 

[01:26:55] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:26:56] Torkel Norling: Two small caps in, in the tree. So you try to avoid it, of course, [01:27:00] but it might happen.

Sure. And of course you can't see as with you, uh, with a, with a whiteboard, you can't see if a single bear is a female or a male. When it, when it's running, you can't 

[01:27:13] Travis Bader: see. Well, that's it. That's it. Right. Yeah. Like for, for us, shooting animals that are running is something that's, uh, more of a rarity. I mean, since we don't have dogs driving the animals out, we typically will spot and stalk or lay up and an animal come through and maybe they hear something and maybe they're looking up, or maybe you made a noise to get 'em to kind of halt in their tracks.

And there's, they're sitting there and you just, you know, you find a good place, put the beat on 'em, you make a good shot. And that's generally how we do our hunting. Not something that's just streaking through like Grease lightning. You, we can take our time and say, well, is this one I want, is it male or female?

Uh, that decision making is highly accelerated when it's a driven [01:28:00] hunt. Yeah, 

[01:28:00] Torkel Norling: of course, of course. But, but, uh, you know, uh, the plot town, you know, the bridge mm-hmm. That's very common, uh, in, uh, at, uh, bear hunting in Sweden. 

[01:28:11] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:28:12] Torkel Norling: Very eff efficient. Uh, and we have got very good, uh, just, uh, worked with, with, uh, the rules for the plot towns on, on bear trials.

[01:28:23] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:28:24] Torkel Norling: And, uh, you know, um, they're very common and they are imported from, from North America. The plot, our plot now we breed our own north coast because we, we, we imported some very good, and one of the reasons for us being able to import the very good plots plot plots is. That, uh, one very famous North American breeder who sold the, the, the first plots, uh, he was quite impressed by what we are going to hunt with him or brown [01:29:00] bear?

Not black bear. 

[01:29:01] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:29:02] Torkel Norling: Mm-hmm. Because you 

[01:29:02] Travis Bader: don't have black bear, do you? 

[01:29:04] Torkel Norling: No, no, no. Only brown bear. Yeah. So that, that for him was the real stuff. Huh? He was very glad to sell dogs using, used for, for brown bear. But we are not used, we are not allowed to use them in pack. You know, we are two dogs only, and that is in many ways good for me, uh, uh, that likes interested in dog breeding and, uh, uh, interested in in tough, brave dogs.

[01:29:31] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:29:32] Torkel Norling: That's great. For, for breeding, of course. If a dog is, is capable alone to hunt a big brown bear, it's a very strong, strong dog. 

[01:29:44] Travis Bader: So I, I think I probably have an answer to this already, but I'm gonna throw it out anyways 'cause I'm curious to hear your thoughts. So you breed these dogs, dogs, natural survival instinct is dependent on being able to read humans and to form an em an emotional bond with [01:30:00] us.

Uh, you talked about the dog that jumped in front of the, uh, the brown bear and saved your life and the sacrifice of almost its own. You're going into a lot of these things not knowing what the outcome for your dogs are gonna be. Is that a fair assessment? 

[01:30:19] Torkel Norling: Yeah. When I, when I do the tracking, 

[01:30:24] Travis Bader: yes. 

[01:30:24] Torkel Norling: That support of it, because when it comes to, especially, you know, the, the animal that's.

Have, uh, that for this animal, the, is the easiest, easiest, uh, thing to, to take a dog that is links. 

[01:30:46] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:30:48] Torkel Norling: That, that is so much. It's like a, like a, you know, a domestic cat, you know, if you twist 

[01:30:54] Travis Bader: it 

[01:30:54] Torkel Norling: with a finger 

[01:30:55] Travis Bader: That's right. 

[01:30:56] Torkel Norling: You know what, how it's 

[01:30:58] Travis Bader: Oh 

[01:30:58] Torkel Norling: yeah, yeah. [01:31:00] Uh, and the same with the links, but mm-hmm. The links doesn't want to kill the dog.

Not at dog. 

[01:31:05] Travis Bader: No. 

[01:31:06] Torkel Norling: No. It just want to get rid of the dog. 

[01:31:09] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:31:09] Torkel Norling: So it's annoyed by the dog. And, and so, uh, when a dog gets a good beating by Lyx, finished with it, sometimes with the lyx holding with this, this long clothes, holding the dog likes this, looking into its eye eyes and saying, 

[01:31:27] Travis Bader: yeah, 

[01:31:28] Torkel Norling: if you enough's enough, if you promise me to, to stop hunting.

I will let you go and it'll let, let the dog go. And so the dogs that gets, uh, most injuries from lynxs are very tough young dogs that won't treat with high, high, uh, that are quite aggressive, you know? Uh, 

[01:31:50] Travis Bader: sure. 

[01:31:51] Torkel Norling: And, uh, and a lot of, uh, defensive traits, you know? Mm-hmm. That combination, aggressiveness and, and, and, and defensive [01:32:00] traits in combination, uh, might get it not to, to, to quit at all and then, then, then it might be killed.

But, but I, I, if, uh, when it comes to wild boar 

[01:32:12] Travis Bader: mm-hmm. 

[01:32:15] Torkel Norling: It is really the worst element. Right. It's gorum, wild boar are, in some situations, if you have a very good wild boar dog, uh, to be able to shoot. Uh, the same with bear, the dog must work close to the wild boar. Mm. Otherwise, you, you, you know, you, you, you going in, in this very tight, uh, brushes and, uh, and the dense areas trying to get close to the barking dog and, uh, on a bear for example.

And then you suddenly see the dogs in front of you barking towards you, then you know that you, you are in between the dog and the bear and that is not good. So I must know that when, when I go trying to get close to the barking [01:33:00] dog, I must know that the, in general, the dog and the animals is on the same place, more or less.

Mm-hmm. I'm, mm-hmm. So the might work close and you understand that. Mm-hmm. A good, uh, really good bear dog or especially really good wilder dog will get injured. Sometime, but if it get injured three times a year, it's not a very good dog. It's it, it's doing something wrong. Right. I didn't get the injuries, uh, last year and, and not the year before that either on any of, of of my dogs, but it's close.

[01:33:38] Travis Bader: Sorry. No, no injuries in the last couple years. And that's two to 300? Yeah, 

[01:33:43] Torkel Norling: yeah, yeah. No injuries. Uh, 

[01:33:45] Travis Bader: okay. Okay. 

[01:33:47] Torkel Norling: Uh,

they can get in, they, they can step on on the, on the, on the nail or something that, that, 

[01:33:56] Travis Bader: okay, 

[01:33:56] Torkel Norling: sure. Uh, but, uh, no wild [01:34:00] boar injuries in two years. No, that's right. Oh, that's, that's impressive. But it's, it's like a bit like lottery because if, if have dog that keeps on, on, um, barking wild boar and it's a wound that male wild boar and it, there are types of terrain.

Where the dog has a disadvantage. Okay. You, you can find a situation that's not good If you have a dog that's inclined to work close to the animal, sure. Like we have, if you have like snow, this much snow and it frozen and surface on the snow, you know, and they, and there are, uh, vegetation on the bottom and you have a layer of, of hard snow on top of the, that then the, the dog will not be able to, to, you know, so a smart dog realizes that and said, well, I have to work, keep further away.

[01:34:57] Travis Bader: Yes, I could see that. [01:35:00] Uh, is is there anything that we should be talking about that we haven't talked about? 

[01:35:05] Torkel Norling: Um, uh, let's see. I, uh, I don't know, uh, maybe. If, if you are interested in some of the training results, I got the results on, on the, uh, new methods, methods, uh, compared to old methods. Not only we talked about the, the, the mentality part of the human, but we, we have.

[01:35:35] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:35:36] Torkel Norling: Yeah. And, and, and then, uh, when it comes to, to, as I said, I interviewed a lot of very, um. Uh, people when it comes to tracking and, and I, I said, talked about this with the, with the mentality part, never quitting, uh, mentality. And you don't see that they use a special [01:36:00] breed of dogs, but they use often a perfect kind of dogs, and that's the dog that never quits.

They, they, they need a lot of motor in the dog, you know? 

[01:36:08] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:36:10] Torkel Norling: Very high, often, very high hunting drive. 

[01:36:13] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:36:14] Torkel Norling: They have, they, they don't want the dog that quits before they quit, and they, they know never quit attitude, you know, so that, that's, but a, an interesting and not depressive part. But the interesting part is, I, I looked, I compared old methods.

With new methods. Mm-hmm. And I try to see what, um, scientifically holds up when it comes to the old methods. And you can see that some of the old methods are still best at certain training, uh, things, but some, some doesn't hold up when you, uh, if you compare them to, to new, new methods. 

[01:36:57] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:36:57] Torkel Norling: But there is another [01:37:00] problem, and, and I found that the time some, um, uh, training methods are super good.

And they're not mm-hmm. Almost used at all because, uh, because they, they get a lot of tradition, especially the Germans who stopped the, the whole tracking thing many hundred years ago. They're very inclined to, to, to stick to traditions. 

[01:37:25] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:37:25] Torkel Norling: That, and that is the bad thing when it comes to this because you, you don't get the development needed.

Uh, I think, uh, but they have not a lot of knowledge. And then the question is, what can you use from that that's still best? And what can you use from the new things? I've interviewed a lot of police trainers, military trainers, and behaviorist and stuff. And the problem there is that. Eh, some of the old trainers for old school trainers are [01:38:00] not willing to, to listen to new ideas because they, then they, they believe that they, they know, know it all.

I, I'm doing this for 30 years, therefore old dog, 

[01:38:09] Travis Bader: new tricks, 

[01:38:11] Torkel Norling: they, therefore I don't have to listen. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, and also some younger new trainers also have a problem here because they think just because you found new ideas, they think that, that automatically all the old, old ideas are useless.

[01:38:29] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:30] Torkel Norling: Understand. And, uh, even if I, when one, one else can prove that this exercise been used for 150 years, that still is the best way to train this. 

[01:38:47] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:48] Torkel Norling: They can say that. Well, I hear what you're saying. I understand, but I don't like it. So. 

[01:38:56] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:38:57] Torkel Norling: So they, they, they have a [01:39:00] tendency to mix emotion with science.

[01:39:03] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:39:04] Torkel Norling: You understand? So the emotion, they don't feel like it, they don't like, yeah. And, and, uh, and, uh, and therefore they, they don't listen to, to, they, they don't adapt to it. So they, they don't use a lot of good things That's mm-hmm. Valuable for them. And that's, that is a problem. And, uh, you, you understand what I mean?

If, if you're confuse, you can see that hundred percent. Other areas where you con you, you, you, you, because you have a strong emotion about something you, you won't listen to, to, to knowledge. Prove knowledge. You can see that every day. Every day. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh. And with that attitude that, and that's both in the old timers and the new timers, so to say.

[01:39:56] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:39:57] Torkel Norling: If you have that attitude, uh, [01:40:00] that I will train the dog and I will listen, but only if the, the solution is in this 

[01:40:07] Travis Bader: right 

[01:40:08] Torkel Norling: framework. And, but these trainers can get good results still, but they will never get great results. 

[01:40:20] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:40:22] Torkel Norling: You know, with that attitude, you will never get great results. And one thing I can see when it comes to everyone I interviewed of these top performers are that they are, and this is great, I think.

They're not selfish when it comes to this. They share information, they share knowledge, and therefore they get knowledge back from others. They listen to others all the time, and then they have a continuous, uh, uh, development. Uh, you, you understand? And I 

[01:40:56] Travis Bader: do. Yeah. 

[01:40:57] Torkel Norling: That's the way to to, to do it. I think. [01:41:00] 

[01:41:01] Travis Bader: I, I agree.

You know, you gotta park the ego and you gotta park the preconceptions that you have and you have to be able to look at it kind of from a blank slate as to what works and what doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, you gotta be ruthless with it and just get rid of it. Yeah. Maybe analyze why it's not working and so that you can apply that to the other things as well, but pull the weeds.

[01:41:24] Torkel Norling: Yeah. Uh, uh, absolutely. And, and also these people. But listen to others. They're, they are much nicer people to be around also. 

[01:41:32] Travis Bader: Yes, they are. Yes, they are. 

[01:41:34] Torkel Norling: And, and that is also, that's nice of course, but it's also important because what you see about, let's say, modern tracking, what I can see, it's much more common now today, uh, that people cooperate when it comes to tracking the tracking teams.

We do it all the times. We have tracking teams. We have I and a couple of [01:42:00] friends. We might be three, four people out for a mission and say when, because I can see I found tooth here, so then I think it'll be a very long track then we should use your specialist. But, but now I see it's, it's a gut shot. 

[01:42:26] Travis Bader: Yep.

[01:42:26] Torkel Norling: Then we take my life as immediately because he will fix the tracking part, but he's better at the, at the day part 

[01:42:37] Travis Bader: mm-hmm. 

[01:42:38] Torkel Norling: Than the tracking specialist when it comes to the, the, the animal hitting the jaw. 

[01:42:44] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:42:44] Torkel Norling: Then we must be two, one super specialized tracking dog and one super specialized bathing dog because that animal will run, run, and run and run.

[01:42:57] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:42:57] Torkel Norling: Then dog, the dog [01:43:00] must never quit. That's the most important part. Uh, uh, other areas, it might be more important that you have a tough dog. If you have a, a wild boar, a small wild boar, and you'll hit it in the front leg, let's say. 

[01:43:13] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[01:43:14] Torkel Norling: It, for you 

[01:43:15] Travis Bader: can run on all three. 

[01:43:17] Torkel Norling: What 

[01:43:18] Travis Bader: a small one, or run on all three for forever.

[01:43:20] Torkel Norling: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For forever. 

[01:43:21] Travis Bader: Big one is too front heavy though. 

[01:43:24] Torkel Norling: Exactly, exactly that. That's, that's, that's absolutely true. But if you have a small one, uh, it'll run forever for a passive dog. Okay. But for dog, it'll, uh, it'll, uh, be very short and intense. 

[01:43:41] Travis Bader: Ah, 

[01:43:42] Torkel Norling: yes. You will kill it. Uh, if it, like, like a 50 kilo, uh, wild bo with a, with a three-legged wild boar with a really good dog.

[01:43:54] Travis Bader: Yeah. It'll 

[01:43:55] Torkel Norling: be stop. And I will kill it in, in a immediately. 

[01:43:58] Travis Bader: That's good. 

[01:43:58] Torkel Norling: And if it's a very [01:44:00] passive walking dog that works in a, on a distance, 

[01:44:03] Travis Bader: yeah. 

[01:44:04] Torkel Norling: It might never stop. 

[01:44:07] Travis Bader: Well, it sounds like your dogs are getting a little worked up at the moment. 

[01:44:10] Torkel Norling: Yeah. So that, that, that's interesting. And, and I've written quite a lot of, of, uh, this, um.

A new method. What, what can I use from, from, from the old methods? What works and what doesn't work? Um, what holds 

[01:44:27] Travis Bader: up? Well, I, if I wanna get my hands on that book in English, where would I be looking? 

[01:44:34] Torkel Norling: And where I think, I think because it's not out, uh, yet, I think you will must. Uh, you, you have to search for the title.

Um, 

[01:44:45] Travis Bader: okay. Uh, 

[01:44:47] Torkel Norling: it's called Modern. It's very generic. Uh, modern blood tracking. Probably they're nice people, but they, they, the title is very generic. I don't like that. Tokyo, not Modern Blood Blood [01:45:00] Tracking. Can I? That's training and techniques. 

[01:45:03] Travis Bader: Okay. And that's McFarland books, I think. 

[01:45:05] Torkel Norling: McFarland. Yeah, that's right.

That's, so you it's, it's, you can read on McFarland now. Okay. But, but you won't get it in the couple months, I think. 

[01:45:15] Travis Bader: Well, I'm gonna put some links in the description where people can find you. If people have more questions, they can maybe DM you or, um, and then I'll, and when the book's out on Amazon, we'll make sure we update it and put links in there as well.

But I'll, I'll, 

[01:45:30] Torkel Norling: yeah, I would be happy to if I can. Start a new debate about methods and stuff. 

[01:45:38] Travis Bader: Ah, yes. 

[01:45:39] Torkel Norling: That's my, my, that's my goal. 

[01:45:41] Travis Bader: Yeah. Just 

[01:45:42] Torkel Norling: to get the, discuss these kind of discussions, uh, with other tracking people is it's great 

[01:45:48] Travis Bader: tole. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really, really enjoyed this.

[01:45:53] Torkel Norling: Yeah, it very nice. Nice to meet you. If you come to Sweden anymore time. 

[01:45:58] Travis Bader: Oh, I will be, I [01:46:00] absolutely will be. I'll probably visit some friends over at Norma and then, uh, I'll have to, uh, let you know as well, so maybe we can get together and have a fika. Yeah, 

[01:46:08] Torkel Norling: will be great. Have a nice time. Hear from you.

[01:46:12] Travis Bader: Bye-bye. You take care.