About this episode

John Barklow spent 26 years in the U.S. Navy, most of it teaching Naval Special Warfare how to survive the coldest, most unforgiving mountains on earth. After 9/11 the military needed mountain warfare experts and almost none were left. They picked a diver from Cleveland, Ohio, and his work went on to reshape cold weather survival training for a generation of special operators.

In this conversation, Travis Bader and John go far past gear. They get into the mindset that keeps you alive when things go wrong, the difference between chasing happiness and building satisfaction, and why the hunting and firearms communities are so quick to turn on their own. John breaks down his famous rewarming drill in full: what to do if you fall in cold water in the backcountry, why you keep your wet clothes on instead of stripping them off, and how your own body heat dries your system from the inside. He explains how to train it safely in your own backyard before your life depends on it.

He also tells the story of a British Columbia horseback hunt that nearly ended under 1,400 pounds of falling horse in the dark, opens up about two hip replacements and refusing to let the old man in, and shares, for the first time publicly, who wrote the foreword to his new book.

Some of the best survival lessons of your life are the ones John learned the hard way, so you don't have to.

John's first book, Knowledge from Storms, is available for pre-order now. This episode includes a giveaway. Details are in the show and on our channels.

Chapters

00:00 Cold open: they picked a diver

01:00 The best introduction he's ever had

02:00 Cleveland, Ohio does not grow mountain men

05:00 Enlisting in the Navy at 19

07:00 The cardinal direction: a heading he couldn't name

08:00 Breaking the script he was handed

10:00 Happiness versus satisfaction

17:00 The harder you work, the luckier you get

18:00 When it goes wrong in the mountains, who does he call?

21:00 COVID, and the birth of Knowledge From Storms

23:00 The inciting incident: his drill in a competitor's marketing

27:00 Why the hunting and firearms communities eat their own

28:00 The camo wars, and refusing to fight in public

31:00 Trust is slow to earn and fast to lose

34:00 Travis at 16: the station wagon, the cabin, and hypothermia

38:00 Where he learned cold: diving, the Sierras, and Mark Twight

41:00 After 9/11: rebuilding a lost cold weather capability

42:00 Making the soldier durable

45:00 The rewarming drill on camera, and Adam Foss

47:00 The static rewarming drill: clothing is shelter

48:00 Why building a fire can be the wrong first move

49:00 Trap the heat, then move

51:00 An hour in: the shivering stops

54:00 Do it in your backyard, not in the middle of nowhere

57:00 Granddad in denim, and what modern gear actually changed

59:00 The active rewarming drill: one bucket, any trailhead

1:02:00 Mark Twight wrote the foreword, announced here first

1:05:00 Extreme Alpinism: the book that prepared men for war

1:06:00 Going light without getting forced out: the margin of safety

1:09:00 Three days pinned in a Mount Rainier blizzard

1:11:00 Planning builds confidence, confidence builds decisions

1:13:00 Keeping your world small when the float plane leaves

1:16:00 We romanticize the mountains. Here is the rest of it.

1:19:00 The PPCLI research miss

1:20:00 The BC horseback hunt that went wrong

1:22:00 1,400 pounds of horse in the dark

1:24:00 Giardia, and the unforced error he owns

1:28:00 Two hip replacements, and not letting the old man in

1:32:00 Who the book is for

1:35:00 OutdoorClass and Montana Knife Company

1:38:00 Start higher on the mountain, but climb it yourself

1:39:00 Student of the game: enjoy where you are

Resources & partners

Learn more about John Barklow:

Book (pre-order): https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250461704/knowledgefromstorms/

Website: https://knowledgefromstorms.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jbarklow

Courses: https://outdoorclass.com/instructors/john-barklow/

Free videos: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/blogs/john-barklow-mkc-survival-guide

Travis Bader: [00:00:00] I've been hypothermic a few times, and I can tell you when you climb out of the icy water, the clock starts ticking. My guest today knows the exact length of that countdown because the Navy paid him to teach it to their SEALs and countless others. After 9/11, they needed a mountain warfare expert, and they picked a diver.

That call reshaped cold weather survival training for a generation of special operators, and it's the reason this man can teach you to fall in a frozen river and walk yourself dry. He's a 26-year Navy veteran, one of the minds behind the clothing system special operations carried into the mountains, and the man Sitka Gear trust to build equipment your life might depend on.

Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, John Barklow.

John Barklow: [00:01:00] Travis, thank you. And let me say before I forget, that is absolutely the best introduction I have ever gotten. I'm gonna get the transcription of that and maybe have it tattooed on my back. That is amazing. Thank you so much. Oh. Thank you so much. It's hard to take 30 years of experience and, you know, succinctly put it in a few sentences, but that was outstanding.

Travis Bader: Well, tell me about it. There's so much culling I had to do- ... 'cause y- you're a man of many talents. Yeah. You've got a lot of accolades behind you, and I, you know, I tried to hit the high points in there. So- You

John Barklow: did. You did. Uh. That was outstanding. Thank you very much. Humbling.

Travis Bader: Well, I should preface this or preface this with the fact that you've got a book coming out, and for the listeners, you guys are gonna have an opportunity to win this book.

It's called Knowledge From Storms, and it's on pre-order. So I'm gonna have... Like, I just thought about it this morning, so I'm gonna have that figured out by the end of this podcast. It'll be in the details about how a person can win this [00:02:00] book, and, uh, you'll, you'll be getting your own copy of Knowledge From Storms once that one comes out.

So, uh- Yeah,

John Barklow: I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's, uh, I think it's amazing. You put a lot, a lot great content, and holy crow, have you ever come a long way from the boy in Cleveland who would pick mushrooms so he could buy his school clothing.

John Barklow: Yeah. Yeah, uh, Cleveland, Ohio is not the place to, that grows mountain men or deep sea divers, right?

It's just not, uh, not, uh, not the place you would, you would put a pin on the map to do that. But I think what it did, for whatever reason, is it gets you to dream and dream big. And, you know, I'm 57, so, you know, when I was younger, there was no internet, not even a, uh, an idea of an internet. So you really had to, you know, look at magazines and buy books and, you know, and talk to people or go to some outdoor show.

And, uh, it just, man, for a young adventurous kid, it [00:03:00] just gets your mind going because you can't just walk to the ocean. You c- Right ... you know what I mean? I had little wood lots, but you can't go climb a mountain. So you can only dream about those things and, and just work them up in your mind.

Travis Bader: Yeah, so I guess I'm kinda spoiled living here in British Columbia because I got mountains and ocean all around me, and I, you know, it's in my blood.

I don't know if I could ever move away from being by the ocean or have a mountain somewhere nearby. But what sparked that adventure in you?

John Barklow: You know, I, I, I don't know, and I've thought about that a lot, but I would say it could be the same thing that, say, sparked, you know, uh, a kid from Virginia or the Ohio territory to pack up, go up to Missouri and head west to become a mountain man or a fur trader.

Hmm. Hmm. Like, I, I... It, it's always been there is all I can tell people. You know, my dad, he bird hunted, uh, you know, he scuba dove. He did some of those things, but as far as, like, nobody archery hunted, [00:04:00] nobody had ever big game hunted. But for whatever reason, it just, it captured my... I mean, it captured my heart is really what it did.

Hmm. And it's never let go 42 years or whatever it is later. Um, at the same time, I think some of the stories of, you know, my dad in the Navy and, and, uh, you know, he wasn't a Navy diver, but, but, you know, his scuba diving exploits in Florida and things like that- Hmm ... it instilled this sense of adventure in me, but then also a sense of frustration because I couldn't then go and do these things as a kid, you know, driving the family station wagon somewhere for a day or a weekend.

Um, and so I, I was just... I could not wait to get out of, of school. You know, the thing that kept me kind of focused was, you know, organized sports and, and doing that and preparing for those things. But I knew at some point, probably more upon reflection, that I was always gonna pursue this, this other life, you know, [00:05:00] outside of the bounds of what, you know, Ohio could provide me.

Travis Bader: Well, it was what, 19 when you joined the Navy?

John Barklow: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Like, that was right out of high school and you're like-

John Barklow: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Your father was a big influence in this, was it? Or...

John Barklow: Yeah, I think he was a big influence on, on the military, not that he promoted it. And I've got three other siblings. I was the only one to, to, to go active duty in the military.

My brother, who's a doc, one of the, my brothers, uh, he was an Air Force officer in the reserves.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: But yeah, a- again, I think it was that sense of adventure. I realized that, you know, I, I, I tried college. I tried to play football. I knew the football thing wasn't gonna work out. College, I was not interested in.

And then for whatever reason, this, this maybe bit of wisdom I had that, you know, I could always go back and, you know, be an accountant or, or, you know, sit behind a desk. But if I was going to join the military and wanna do these adventurous things that, you know, for my body anyways, I had a [00:06:00] shelf life.

Definitely the military has a very short timeframe of age that you can join and be, be part of these special programs. And, um- And once I got into it, and, and to this day, I've, I've never regretted it, I've never looked back. You know, I knew that I was... I- I call it my cardinal direction, like on a map. Mm-hmm.

I knew I was... I knew that I was moving in my cardinal direction. I didn't know all the twists and turns, I didn't know, you know, maybe the, the stumbles or getting lost and turned around a little bit. But if I kept moving in that direction, and again, this is in hindsight-

Travis Bader: Sure ...

John Barklow: that, that, that I would at least, that I would hopefully become fulfilled and maybe reach the goal, but I never really had, like, a goal.

There were small incremental step goals, but nothing like, "Oh, I'm gonna go and, you know, be on the Silvercore podcast one day- ... you know, and talk to Travis." Like, I, I, you know, I didn't have that kind of- Well, that's the

Travis Bader: pinnacle, right? That's

John Barklow: the top I, I didn't have that kind of wisdom. But, uh, and that's why I just tell people, like, [00:07:00] man, you just, you gotta be true to your heart, and then I think everything else will tend to work its way out.

Not that it's always easy, but you know, I think you'll be fulfilled, I hope, is the goal.

Travis Bader: Well, that brings up an interesting question, and something for the younger listeners. That cardinal direction that you talk about now with hindsight and- Yeah ... being able to look back on this, did you have some form of that cardinal direction in your younger years?

And what... If so, what did that feel like?

John Barklow: Yeah, I did. I didn't have the words to describe it or call it the cardinal direction. I think at the time, you know, and most people even today would just say trying to be true to yourself. So you know, and I talk about this in the book, but you know, I, I grew up in a, a very, um, you know, ethnically, uh, diverse area of Ohio.

You know, the Italian neighborhood, the, the Irish neighborhood. You know, the Polish neighborhood kinda thing.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: And it, there were small towns and, you know, I was the, you know, one of the, the local, you know, football stars and the [00:08:00] homecoming king and all these kinds of things. And it just seemed like my life was preordained of what it was going to be.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And I was handed the script at birth. Mm. And I resented that, and I rejected it. Not that I acted out as a bad kid necessarily, but, you know, I wasn't good in school because all I could think about was doing these other things. And so the, you know, the hardest decision I had to make, and also the best decision I ever made, was to kinda break those shackles and say, "No, I'm not cut from this cloth, I'm cut from this other cloth, and I absolutely need to go do this.

And I can always come back." Mm. Which I've never moved back home. Of course, I've been back home. I've got family there. But I, I could always come back. Right. But at some point I'm not gonna be able to because of a job or a wife or a girlfriend or kids, like, to be able to go do these things. And so, [00:09:00] you know, a- I just tell people, "You have to be true to yourself," because at the end of the day, making your mom or dad or siblings or even girlfriend, boyfriend happy for a short amount of time i- is not gonna always make you happy.

Mm. And I think that's where people get this, you know, resentment, and they act out against, you know, maybe their parents or maybe their siblings or, or, or spouse because of that. And I, I just, you know, luckily, it was the hardest decision I ever had to make. And, and honestly, it was only, it was only after my mother said in, in a loving way, but, but the only way an Irish mother could say is, "Get the hell out of the house and go find something to do-

but you're not doing it here."

Travis Bader: Yeah.

John Barklow: And I was, two weeks later I was in the Navy. I was, I was shipped off a- and super happy and everybody was happy for me 'cause they knew it's like finally he's, he's going to do it. I was, I was scared.

Travis Bader: Yeah. I was scared. I was just gonna ask that. Yeah. Were you [00:10:00] scared? Yeah.

John Barklow: Absolutely. No kidding. Abs- scared of the unknown, scared if I could live up to my own expectations, uh, you know, scared of, of leaving everything I knew, right? Mm. That you grow up in those small neighborhoods back on the East Coast and- You know, everybody knows everybody, and everybody knows everybody's business, and everybody goes to the same, you know, you go to the same bar your dad went to and the same bar your grandad went to.

Mm-hmm. And it's like I, I appreciate that, but I needed more, or I at least needed to go experience more and then I could decide for myself, but I didn't want to... I wanted to make sure that it, somebody wasn't telling me what to do, that I could go and figure it out for myself. And I've always kind of been that way.

I'm the oldest, right, of four kids, so you kinda have that little bit of personality trait baked in.

Travis Bader: Sure. You know, it, it brings to mind, uh, I think it was Harvard. They did the longest study on happiness, what makes people happy. Mm. And they studied people from different, uh, religious backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds-

different [00:11:00] regions over an 80-year period, and the number one thing that was reported for satisfaction of life and happiness was strong social connections. And growing up in a East Coast small town sort of environment where you've got those traditions and you know family- Mm-hmm ... grandfather, father, parents, friends will know who you are through your, through your family, I think that might be something that's starting to, uh, to be missed in today's day and age where everyone's connected through a phone, through social media, as opposed to the hard, uh, what do they call it?

IRL, in real life connections.

John Barklow: Yeah, yeah. Well, y- I think you, you could be right about that. Um, I, I, I'm not... Y- you know, when you get to know me, you're, y- you're probably not going to say... You're, you're probably not gonna apply the, the modifier happiness to John, right? Like, John and [00:12:00] happiness, not that I'm not happy.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: I would say I'm more satisfied. I'm say I'm more fulfilled. And I would say that I, I have more of that today than I ever have had in my life. And, um- But, but y- y- you're right, but I think some of us are, like again, how, h- you know, how can somebody pick up and, and, and go to the middle of the mountains in the 1800s and live by themselves amongst, you know, warring indigenous tribes- Mm-hmm

and, and, and that's what they're cut, cut out for, you know? And I think I, I'm, I'm certainly not here to cast any kind of judgment. I just say make sure that you're doing whatever you're doing for yourself and not others. And, and then I think you will get that satisfaction, that fulfillment and, uh, you know, and hopefully that happiness.

Travis Bader: Yeah. I, I like how you separate that from satisfaction, fulfillment. I think, I think a lot of people are striving for happiness, [00:13:00] and they want to be happy, and that whole pursuit presupposes that you aren't right now, and it's something that's in front of you that you're always chasing. And if you can just kinda relax and be satisfied in the moment, happiness is a natural byproduct of that, of those efforts.

There we go. At least that's my perception. Yeah.

John Barklow: I think that's a great way of saying it. It's a, it's a byproduct of the two. Yeah. To, to just chase happiness is kind of this elusive thing that's hard to kinda define, and I don't... It, it's hard to even, you know, even feel when you're having it. It's, it's like sitting down and having that cup of coffee in the morning and you're like, "Yeah, I feel pretty good about, you know, where things are right now."

Yeah. Yeah.

Travis Bader: Well, if you look back, have you felt fulfilled through life as in the same way that you are now? Or were you always kinda striving and, "Okay, I'm at the top of this mountain, where's the next one?"

John Barklow: Yeah. I, I, I'm not a person that [00:14:00] often looks back or reflects. Pretty goal-oriented, driven. Ever since, you know, the, the day I got into the Navy, it was, it was just f- full steam ahead.

And, and not, not chasing rank. I, I wasn't a person that, you know, grabbed a lot of rank real quick. It was, you know, trying to, trying to be really good at what I did, trying to master my craft, trying to be that person that people relied on. And then, you know, getting put into positions, okay, now I, you know, I need to become a leader.

And okay, I've done this thing. Say, you know, a certain type of diving as an example in Virginia, and okay, I wanna go test myself and I wanna go forward. And so people can look at that, even myself, as I'm living it and say, you know, d- am I fulfilled? Do I feel satisfaction? Because you're always looking to that next horizon.

And I would say yes, I would say I was. Now, I think everybody can interpret that a little different, but I was... If somebody were to say [00:15:00] at any given time in my military career, "Hey, man, you can leave right now and go do anything else in the world that you want to do." And in all honesty, I'd have said, "Nope, I'm right where I want to be, doing exactly what I want to do."

And that is a blessed man. That is person who, you know, i- is, should be happy at s- at some level because not everybody ever, uh, you know, always attains that.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: And, and again, I just tie it back to, uh, you know, being true to myself. Now, l- let's, let's not, you know, blow smoke here. It was every single day, was every single duty station, was every single leader I ever worked for the perfect person?

No. But you can still learn from that, and you have to, like, kind of get out of your own head sometimes and, and just look around. It, it's like when I'm in the mountains, right, and I'm getting my ass kicked by the elk, or, you know, my physical fitness was- wasn't what it to be or, or the weather's bad or the wind's always in the wrong direction.

And just being able to [00:16:00] take a step back and look around and go, "I am, I am so lucky to be here right now getting my butt kicked-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

John Barklow: by these elk because people never, some people never get that opportunity," right? And that I'm physically capable of doing it, and I live in an area I can pursue those. And, and again, I think some of that, you know, it's hard as you get older To, you know, I didn't have this wisdom when I was younger is my point.

Um, and it's only upon reflection that, you know, you start to realize these things. I, I'm glad I'm realizing them in my 50s and not in my 70s or on my death bed, you know. So I'll, I'll chalk it up as a win.

Travis Bader: No kidding.

John Barklow: But, um, yeah. But, but I have been able to do that at certain points in time, and, and I look back now, even with this book, and, and I, I still am- I just pinch myself.

I'm like, "How did I do what I did? How did I get where I got? How have I been able to accomplish, you know, these things and, and have these kinds of friends?" I, I don't know. I mean, some of it I'm sure is luck, [00:17:00] but, uh, but some of it is, is also this, you know, kinda dogged determination to just say, "No, I'm supposed to be here.

I'm, I'm, I'm good enough. I, I, you know, this is what I am meant to do." And I might not be, you know, the best at it, the top performer in my team or unit, but, but I'm gonna carry my weight and I'm gonna work at, you know, striving to become the best. And, uh, you know, at some point, you know, maybe you get there, maybe you don't, but you can still find satisfaction in that.

Travis Bader: You know, isn't it funny that the harder that you work, the luckier you get?

John Barklow: Yeah. Interesting how that is, right? You call it- Yeah. It's, it's, uh- You call it luck ... yeah, yeah. We call it luck, right? Or, or the over- I like the overnight successes that we see. Oh, yeah. And it's like, you d- you didn't see the 10, 20 years leading up to, you know, to the, to the overnight success component of that.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

John Barklow: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Well, you also did something there that was kinda interesting, like when you pose the question in the opposite, and I find people are like, "Well, am I happy here? Am I doing the right thing now?" [00:18:00] Well, what would you do in the opposite? "Oh, shit, I wouldn't leave," right? I'd- Right ... this is where I should be.

Yeah. And sometimes it's really easy to identify the opposite as opposed to de- identifying the where you are right now.

John Barklow: Yeah. Yeah. It is.

Travis Bader: So when people have, when things go sideways for people in the mountains, they will call you up or they'll go on YouTube and they'll check out your, your plethora of videos and, or content that you have out there, and they're like, "What could I have done differently?"

Who do you call?

John Barklow: Um, who do I call? I, uh, I probably don't... This isn't to sound arrogant. I probably don't call anybody anymore There's a few, but I certainly have and had, but still do have mentors. Um, you know, people that I, that I reach out to, that I talk to, um, you know, that have helped me along the way when I get to...

You know, oftentimes it's [00:19:00] not this, this, uh, this T in the road, it's more of a fork. Do I go a little left? Do I go a little right? Maybe I forge my own path straight ahead. And there's, there's always been mentors there. Um, you know, I was really lucky to have, you know, just the way the military organization is structured, you know, you have people that, that potentially are mentors that you can, that you can use.

Of course, it's very humbling when somebody says, "Well, you know, you're, you're my mentor." You don't get to pick, right? It, it's kinda like the way it works. But yeah, there's, there's some people, there's, there's, uh, you know, there's... Some of them aren't, aren't, uh, alive anymore, but, um, yeah. But guys that, that took the time and took the chance to, you know, take somebody who is maybe running a little ragged here, a little ragged there, a little too aggressive and, and, uh, you know, and take them under their wing and just say, "Hey, you know, have you considered [00:20:00] this?

Hey, have you considered that? Hey, I know this is not... You're not gonna like this choice at the moment, but this will lead to better things, you know, in the future, be it six months or a year or two years down the road." And I, I certainly appreciate that. And, and I was arrogant, I was absolutely arrogant enough for a very long time to think that I had, you know, achieved all my, quote, "success" by myself, that I had done it, that I had done the hard work, that I- Mm-hmm

that I had earned this. And I realized that, you know, how, what an idiot I was that, uh, you know, these mentors, these people, you know, my dad included-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

John Barklow: have, uh, have been there to just, you know, steer me a little bit here or there. They're not, you know, not, they're not gonna control you, but you need that guidance, you need that advice, you need that, that little bit of, of, of aged wisdom.

What you choose to do with it is of course up to you, but, but they're, they've definitely been there. [00:21:00]

Travis Bader: Well, you know, it seems like the natural arc of a high achiever and a leader as they go through, they're accumulating a lot of knowledge and a lot of skills, and then the, they're teaching it to others.

And then it seems the natural arc later on is even outside of their work or whatever they do, they want to share that because, you know, our time here is, is limited, and that knowledge is important and we wanna share these sort of things. And it seems like you spend a lot of your time sharing your knowledge, giving a lot of yourself just out there on the internet on these different videos and, uh, what's, what's driving that?

John Barklow: Yeah. Well, that- that's a great, uh, it's a great, um- It's a great area of focus because If you came up to me and talked and we didn't know each other, I, I would, I would share whatever I knew. But until COVID, when we were told to go and start [00:22:00] working from home- ... and for the first time in my life, I would say I had some kind of balance in my life, 'cause I'm like, I'm, I'm all in whatever I'm doing.

Mm. So if it's all work, it's all work. My wife and I don't have children, so, and she was in the military as well. Um, where I could wake up, I could do a little work, I could go for a walk with her and the, and the dogs, right? I could come back, I could do a little more work, I could do a workout, you know, have lunch with her, whatever.

Never had that in my life.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And I, I, uh, I went it... Nobody knew how long this whole thing would last, right? And so I said, "Well, I'm gonna do a couple thing. I wanna come out of COVID," I thought 90 days, three months. Mm-hmm. I was like, "I'm gonna come out of this better than when I went into it. So I'm not gonna get fat.

I'm not gonna get out of shape. You know, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start my own business. I'm gonna stop drinking, and I'm gonna, [00:23:00] I'm gonna, you know, get in better shape than I started for- Mm-hmm ... for the upcoming season." And I, you know, it was not encouraged when I was in the military to be on social media.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: But now I'm working for a hunting brand, and I had social media just so I could follow people, just so I could see trends, what people were saying. And I, I was driving home one day, and I won't... It doesn't matter what the inciting incident was, but there was something I saw from another brand, and they had kind of, we'll say We'll say hijack some, some things I had talked about.

Mm-hmm. And, and if I'll take any credit, I'll say I brought what's called the rewarming drill, which you kinda referenced in the intro-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

John Barklow: to the hunting industry. It wasn't... I didn't create it in the military, but I brought it to the hunting industry, and these people were bastardizing it, and I thought they were doing it [00:24:00] at the expense of the safety of the consumer, of the hunter-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

John Barklow: and more for the benefit of them and their sales. And that really upset me. And I didn't say anything publicly, 'cause that's not really who I am, but I said I could do three things. I could keep being mad about it and staying frustrated. I could forget about the whole thing and let it go, which I almost did.

I said, or I could do something about it. And I decided that I was gonna start this platform called Knowledge From Storms, which is a way of me saying, "This is... I'm gonna provide you the knowledge that I've got based on my experiences, good and bad, over 30 years in an incredibly, I believe, eclectic and unique environment that I was allowed to grow up in.

And I'm gonna put the information out there, and you can choose to take it or not, and that's fine. I'm not gonna argue with you about it. But if you wanna help, if you want the help, I'm here." Because what I [00:25:00] realized upon, you know, thinking through this whole thing, that I was being very selfish. That I had lived in this unique incubator of experiences and, and, and energy and professionalism that very, very, very few people will ever get a chance to, to, to, to have, right?

To experience. Mm. And that me dying with all this experience or just passing it to my, you know, my one hunting buddy was not doing the world any, any good. Mm-hmm. And because of that and the inciting incident I mentioned, I was like, "I'm just gonna start doing one video a week and see if people like it, and where does it go?"

And I'd already been documenting all my lessons learned and writing some stories down and some things. I didn't wanna forget what I had learned in the military.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And it was interesting 'cause, you know, when you do reflect back, which I don't do often, but you're like, "Man, did it [00:26:00] really happen that way? D- w- was the technique really done that way?"

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: So I wanted it as a record. And then the thing just, you know, started to evolve into what it is today, and, uh, well, this whole thing has started to evolve in what it is today. But really, it was just me trying not to be selfish and, and die with this information, 'cause I thought that if I thought it was important and interesting, that other people might as well

Travis Bader: Yeah, well it clearly they do.

And you know, you talk about social media, I have a difficult time with social media because it can be a, a time suck of just sitting there scrolling. Like, why do you wanna watch what somebody else is doing? Yeah. But it can also be a great educational platform if you're looking to find something and... But, um, I find, I, I, maybe it's like this in all industries, but I s- particularly in like the gun world and also in the hunting world, we, we tend to eat our own.

Oh. Like really, really badly. Very much

John Barklow: so. Yeah. Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah. [00:27:00] And I've never understood that. I- how, how do you deal with that?

John Barklow: I'm old enough and experienced enough, I don't give a shit what anybody thinks about me.

Travis Bader: Excellent. Excellent. I,

John Barklow: I, I, I don't. And again, I'm not gonna call anybody out on social media, 'cause that's just not who I am. Mm. It's not the personality. At the same time, I am not gonna argue with anybody about anything publicly.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: On, on social media, I'm not gonna do it. That's not to say that I'm always right.

Travis Bader: Sure.

John Barklow: I'm just not gonna do that in, in the, in the public square. Um, I, I, obviously I work for Sitka, and, you know, people have their, their opinions about that or, or other brands or bow companies or, or optics or rifles. And I, I truly, I truly believe this.

We're all in this together. We're all passionate about what we do. I call [00:28:00] it the camo wars. I am not going to engage in the camo wars. Mm-hmm. I am not going to start taking our tribe and breaking it into sub-tribes to, to, uh, and I love your words, to eat our own-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

John Barklow: and, and take this community and break it down, which only weakens it.

I, I'll tell you a story. So the very first, this was January 2015, the very first thing I ever did publicly with Sitka was I went to the, uh, it was called the, uh, SHOT Show, Shooters Hunters Outdoor- Yep ... Trade Show. Giant show in Vegas. And I was there in the booth, and you know, people are coming by and I'm having a great time and kinda learning this whole thing.

And I purposely, when I had a break, which wasn't often, I purposely went down the aisle and s- and walked into the booth and said hello and introduced myself to our two biggest competitors.

Travis Bader: Good.

John Barklow: And I said, "Hey, I'm John Barkla. I'm here, work for Sitka. Just wanna [00:29:00] say hello. Nice to meet you. If you guys need anything, you know, reach out.

Here's my card." Floored them.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: And I'm like, "Why wouldn't I do that?"

Travis Bader: Right.

John Barklow: Yes, we can have healthy competition. I got friends at all the brands.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

John Barklow: Clothing brands, footwear brands, you know, weapons, you name it. I am not gonna ruin a friendship over some BS business thing, right? Mm-hmm. It's just, unless, it, like I said, even that, that, that company that I had friends with, you know, I'm, I'm, I had friends there that did this, this one thing with the rewarming drill.

I would never call them out publicly.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: Never. I, I had a conversation with them, you know, privately about it, kind of cordial. Didn't, like, bow up on them and, and want to fist fight. But I was like, "Guys," like, you know... I, I said, "Honestly, if you needed to know more information, you could've just called. I'd have told you exactly how to do it."

I didn't care that they did it. Mm. I cared how they did it.

Travis Bader: I agree.

John Barklow: That, that's, that's [00:30:00] what I cared about, you know? But I, I think, you know, all... I don't know about all industries, but certainly ours, and I think it's because with, especially with the advent of social media, but I would say even probably when the people were just writing for magazines, everybody is fighting for, you know, the spotlight.

Everybody's fighting for the clicks, the views, the marketing dollars, and all this kind of stuff And, you know, I'm fortunate that I, I don't... I mean, I, it'd be nice to have some of that and nice to sell the book, but that's not why I'm doing it. Mm-hmm. That's not, that's not my, that's not my driving principle.

I think that's just a component of it. And, you know, people that sell themselves for those, you know, views, I, they either don't last very long or their reputation gets tarnished. And, and- Mm ... the one thing I learned in the military, man, working in small special ops units, the only thing you have to bring in and take with you is your reputation.

And it's- I [00:31:00] agree ... really hard to earn, and it's really quick to, to tarnish, and you just don't wanna do that. And I don't wanna do that, so.

Travis Bader: No. Well, it's interesting how you talk about, "I won't have that conversation, I won't have that camo war online. I'll take it offline and have that conversation," and how quickly, uh, it can turn on its head if you get into that argument online and it can spiral and go further and further, and people are misinterpreting what things are said, or maybe- Yeah

they're just... But you just pick up the phone and call the person.

John Barklow: Yeah.

Travis Bader: You know, the number of times that w- I've had interactions where somebody does something online and I'm able to, "Okay, I know this person. I can find this person and take that conversation offline." There was one time I remember that a, um, uh, this woman had left a negative review for the company under some pseudonym, and I'm like, like, "What is this review?

What's this about?" I'm trying to figure it out. I can't find this person. [00:32:00] Uh, and I'm, and I'm genuinely like, like, I wanna be able to solve their problem for them. And so I look at where else they leave reviews, and one of them is referencing, "Oh, this is a terrible place to work for." So I call up the workplace, talk to the boss.

I'm like, "Do you know who this person is?" They're like, "Yeah, I know who this person is." They give me their contact information. Now, maybe I'm taking things a little too far, right? But, uh, I contact this girl up, and she's like, "How did you find out who I was?" Right? And, and I explained it to her. She's like, "Oh, you're a piece of work.

You talked to my boss? I mean, that person..." And she goes on. And, and I said, "Well, lookit, all I wanna do is I wanna sort this out, see where the issue is, if there's something that we can do." And, um, I said, "I'm not asking you to take the negative review off. That's yours. You do what you want, right?" Mm-hmm. "Uh, you're looking for A, B, and C.

I can't give it to you. I'm not gonna be held hostage to this whole thing." Right, right. Anyways, w- what that ended up in was a glowing review despite my assurances that I'm not giving her what she wanted. Mm-hmm. And she says, "You know what? I made a mistake. I shouldn't have [00:33:00] done this, and I really appreciated the conversation."

But it also, it humanizes both of us. Yes, yes. I, I get, I get the opportunity to see who I'm talking to. They get to see where I'm coming from.

John Barklow: Yep.

Travis Bader: We got families. We have things that are, are depending on this. And I think that also helps build that community that the eat your own online mentality will, will kinda tear down.

John Barklow: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I think that's why podcasts have- become such a popular part of our our culture now is because you can have these long conversations, right? It's not this, this clickbait and, and flying, you know, zingers back and forth to people on social media without any kind of context or knowing who they are.

And it's just kinda like, you know, it's like eating junk food. It's like- Hmm ... it's satisfying in the moment, but it's really not gonna give you anything, you know, to sustain you. So yeah, but good for you for doing that.

Travis Bader: Well, it was, it's inter- and I've, and I apply that any time that there's some level of conflict or even if there's a level of [00:34:00] not conflict, people are really happy.

I'll do my best to... It's, it's easy. Oh, yeah, okay, things are good. We don't have to deal with that. But I, I do my best to try and put myself forward and thank the person and-

John Barklow: Mm-hmm ...

Travis Bader: and make it personal. You know, I, um, uh, when I was 16 years old, you were talking about station wagons earlier- ... so it jogs the memory.

I take my wood panel station wagon. Yes. I'm in British Columbia, and- Yes ...

John Barklow: man- The fake... Well, ours was fake wood. I don't know about yours in Canada, but ours was fake wood.

Travis Bader: Oh, yeah. Station wagons. No, ours was 100% fake wood. You could peel that off. Yep.

John Barklow: Yep.

Travis Bader: Kind of a burgundy colored, uh-

John Barklow: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ours was like, yes, damn, we might have owned the same station wagon.

We might have.

Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah, so I, I took my station wagon, which could barely get down to the end of my block, and I drove it a few hours up to a family cabin that we have in a remote area in the middle of winter. So, um, it was like right after New Year's, I think, right around then. And this first time putting [00:35:00] snowshoes on and my pack and going out and figuring all this stuff out.

Rented snowshoes from a local business. They stayed up late on, on New Year's Eve just so I could get off work and get these. Everything I thought was lining up. The vehicle actually made it up there and didn't break down. And being 16 you're, you know, you're in good physical condition in your mind. Yep.

You can do anything. And-

John Barklow: Yep ...

Travis Bader: I've been there a lot of times. I know they've haven't plowed about 21 kilometers of this. So, so we've got about 21k hike, and then we've got, uh, it's a fly in or hike in cabin anyways. Then the actual hike starts.

John Barklow: Oh, wow. Okay.

Travis Bader: Yeah. So I, uh, and at that time, one of the owners, he was, um, a partner at Dentons, a large law firm, and so we had this space age, uh, I don't even think it was Dentons then, but it was space age, uh, satellite photography that I could navigate from.

Hmm. And I'd never navigated off of satellite photos before. But, uh, I thought, oh, I could just look at that and- Wow ... this [00:36:00] photocopy of it, and I can make my way there. Of course, everything looks different from the satellite photos. Oh, yeah. And when it snowed, all of the side roads looked the

same width as a normal road, and so we get lost. And it was middle of winter, I don't know, -12 or so, and all of our sleeping bags and warm weather stuff was left in the station wagon because we had to have enough room for all the beer we were bringing in, right?

John Barklow: Seems reasonable.

Travis Bader: Seems reasonable. And, um, you know, I, I remember, uh, the sun's out, and you're working damn hard with a way-too-heavy pack on, and it's hot, even though it's negative 12, and you're out there with a T-shirt, and you're, you're working hard.

And after a long time of not finding kind of where we're going, and I remember the sun was going down, I was trying to, uh, search down this one steep embankment area and fell in the snow a couple times, and I realized that my perception of it [00:37:00] getting darker was more than the actuality of it getting darker.

And I'm hypothermic. I'm not, I'm not shivering anymore, right? And, uh, it, it all ended as it ought to. Obviously, I'm here. The two people I'm with are, are still alive. Mind you, they never... did want to go back again in the winter with me. But, uh, that was my first kind of real, uh, exposure to hypothermia and how to stay warm in a cold place, and I'd since had other ones where I've fallen in icy water and had to deal with it.

But I would've, I think, really benefited, whether or not I would've actually been smart enough to listen to it, but I would've benefited from your experience and what you teach in rewarming and, and not getting hypothermic. Did you start that path in the military, or was there previous experiences that kind of, uh, pointed you in that direction?[00:38:00]

John Barklow: No, I really got that, I really got that insight and information and, and, uh, e- and education in the military. I mean, I, you know, growing up in northern Ohio, it, it's cold, and we build snow forts and, you know, and all those things. And I look back and, I mean, my mom didn't know what she was doing. She was dressing us, but, you know, she was actually, you know, doing some, doing some of the right things, you know, dressing in layers and, and that kind of thing.

But, you know, when, when you're, when you're underwater, uh, it doesn't-- you don't have to go very far down to hit what's called the thermocline, which is basically the, the sun's rays and heat can only go so far, and then you hit, you know, the cold layer. Um, so I, I, I knew what cold was, but of course, when you're diving, you just kinda gut through it, and then when you get back to the surface, they warm you up.

But it wasn't until I started [00:39:00] really pursuing, you know... So about halfway through my career, this is before the war, you know, my-- I was-- I had extra time on the weekend, so I was living in California, my wife and I, and so I started going to the Sierra Nevada mountains. I found-- got in with some mountain guide buddies, and they started teaching me.

And it's like, well, maybe I'm just gonna get out and become a mountain guide, ski guide, you know, not a bum necessarily, but, you know- ... live a little bit- Sure ... little bit, little bit different than the military. And so I started acquiring all these skills, and I started, um, r- reading up and, uh

Like exploring how different people were doing these things and look into some of the best s- one of which, this guy Mark Twight, became a mentor of mine. Oh, yeah. We actually hir- hired him in the military. Um, but you know, and I, I just, I don't know how I did it, but, you know, starting [00:40:00] to email Mark like, "Hey, Mark, uh, you know, what, what about, what about food?

Hey, Mark, what about clothing systems? Hey, Mark, what about..." And, and Mark was kind enough, I still have the emails, I printed them out. Um, and so just started to learn. I started to incorporate some of that into, uh, I was at a, a, a active duty SEAL team on the West Coast, and so I was doing a lot, teaching a lot of their diving.

They called it combat swimmer at the time, or still do. Just a little more tactical way of diving. But, um, and they, they asked me, they're like, "Well, how can we, how can we go from the water to the land and like up these cliffs?" And so I started teaching them climbing and then I started teaching them, uh, I did a winter course in California, and then I got invited up to the training facility in Alaska, which is where I ended up, uh, you know, ultimately finishing my career.

And they said, "Hey, come up and, and [00:41:00] help us and, and bring some of your new ideas and, and those kinds of things." And so w- when I got it with the military You know, it's, it, it, I, I enjoyed, I enjoyed the crucible that it was. But up there, when you're teaching guys, especially when I got the call to actually go up as one of the handpicked people after three weeks after 9/11, and they said, "Hey, this is for real.

We got to get guys into, into the Himalayas, into the Hindu Kush in winter immediately, and we have nothing to do it, and we have no tactics or procedures." They all, they all retired and aged out with the Cold War, and guys were already, you know, coming back and reporting like, "Don't know how to wear snowshoes.

Snowshoes are bad. Weapons are freezing when you shoot on full auto. We're freezing our, our asses off because cotton BDUs are getting cold and [00:42:00] freezing." And, and so we started to come up with, with ways that I, I like to say make the soldier as durable as possible. They were already mentally durable, but we needed to give them the tools that would help them in the field.

And so this rewarming drill that we eventually came up with was one such, uh, way to do that, which is worst case scenario, we get these people wet after normally a, a four-day mountain patrol when all they want to do is go back, take a hot shower, and drink a beer, and we make them get wet and go through, through this survival rewarming protocol, which not only gives them confidence in the gear, gives them confidence in themselves, shows them the capability, and then it allows them, if they ever find themselves in anything anywhere remotely close to that, that they're not going to panic because they've already prepared, right?

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And so we even went so far [00:43:00] as to It was called a cold weather symposium, but they brought in some of the world's leading, I, I don't know if they were like cold w- weather physiologists or, or what the heck they were. They were scientists.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And we d- tried all these different hypotherm- in-field hypothermic rewarming protocols, and the only way you can do that is by having some knuckleheads volunteer to get hypothermic-

or at least close to.

Travis Bader: Sure.

John Barklow: So we'd swallow these RFID chips so they could monitor our internal body core temp and all these things. And we would, you know, one or two at a time, we'd get in the water, we'd get cold, they'd warm us up, or not, you know- Mm-hmm ... various levels. And we eventually created this protocol.

So that's really where that all came in is, you know, there was some theory, there was some, you know, try- trying things on my own, um, you know, freezing my [00:44:00] butt off on Mount Rainier, you know- Mm ... in a snow storm kind of thing. Kind of sort of getting there, but it really kind of all congealed when I, I got up to the training facility in Alaska and we started training guys for this uncompromising environment where failure wasn't an option.

Mm-hmm. And I really appreciated, I really appreciated that, and I probably come off, I'm sure I come off in my videos to a lot of people as like, you know, some non-smiling hard ass, and that's not my intent, but I just default immediately back to those days because to me, like this could be life and death, and certainly have fun, but also don't discount that what you're really doing when you go out in the middle of nowhere is kind of putting the chips on the table.

Mm-hmm. And that's your preparedness at that point is what potentially is going to determine, you know, either a great story to tell around a campfire someday in the future or this epic tale of, of [00:45:00] survival and maybe even worse

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Well, your, the rewarming process, I, if I'm remembering right, I think you're, you did a video with another Canadian guy, Adam Foss, and- Yeah

you guys jump into a couple of tanks and have to break the ice to get in there, and you're, you're showing a process. But if I remember correctly, you don't take off your wet kit, you layer over top of it. And I've always been of the mindset of, like, when I get wet, I strip it all down, try and wring it out, get it back on, do what I, what I can.

What... Can you walk me through the, um, the thinking on that?

John Barklow: Yeah. So I, I've, I don't know. There's, I, I've done it for camera four or five times, I think.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: Um, I did one version of it with another Canadian, Adam Yonke. Okay. Who's another guy, BC guy from Kelowna. But, um, so the, the idea [00:46:00] is if you understand your survival protocols, I'll try to...

My answers are normally not short, but I'll try to keep this manageable. Uh, your survival protocols, you remember them as the rule of threes. Three hours without shelter, three days without water, three weeks without food Survival, shelter is your number one survival, uh, priority. Your mind is your number one survival tool.

Clothing is the human being's first line of defense against the elements. It's why the first caveman put on a loincloth, why the mountain man put on a mount- a buffalo robe, and why the modern-day hunter puts on these technical clothing systems. It allows us to go out in environments that we would otherwise not be able to if we were just naked, right?

Mm. So if you understand survival is your number one survival priority, depending on the situation... Now, this, I call it the static rewarming drill because [00:47:00] essentially you're staying in place. You're not going to move. Worst case scenario, you're out in really cold weather, inclement weather. You're in a remote location.

You get wet. You're crossing a creek, the ice gives way. You're walking across a log, you fall off. You flip over, off the backside of a raft. You flip your canoe. Whatever the case may be.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: You've only got a very short amount of time, and this is where you need to understand your protocol and have, have thought through it, hopefully trained to it, and also had that communication with you, whoever your partners are, so that you're not bickering.

'Cause I like to say the clock starts. Mm. So we fall off the raft. We swim to shore. We've got our, our pack. The first thing I'm not gonna do is take my clothes off.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: That clothing is shelter. The other first thing I'm not gonna do is try to start a fire, which [00:48:00] could be a futile endeavor, because I've only got a certain amount of time.

And let's just, it varies, but let's just say I've got 10 minutes. That's not the time to go, "What do I do now?" So the protocol, if, big if, you have a, any, any of the modern technical clothing systems You can keep that layer on your body. Yes, you can brush it off, you can try to get the, you know, the water out.

It's not gonna absorb a lot of water to begin with, but there will be water. But the better course of action is to immediately take care of the immediate threat, which is losing more body heat and becoming hypothermic. So that's where instead of taking clothes off, and I don't know what I'm gonna do then, I could keep those clothes on and put, say, down or an insulated puffy jacket, maybe I've got a puffy pants on.

[00:49:00] That's gonna start to trap body heat. Now I can move. Do we need to get away from the river? Do we wanna set the tent up? Because again, shelter is our number one priority. Secondary shelter being a tent, a lean to, a tarp, something to get out of the wind, get out of the elements-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

John Barklow: is critically important.

So we do that. Now, I'm still not gonna take my clothes off because I'm not, I haven't stabilized the situation. So in that video Adam and I did, we were in there for five minutes. Our body core temp dropped, I don't know, two, two and a half degrees, something like that. We immediately got out. We put our puffy on.

We set the tent up. We got inside and got into our sleeping bags. Now we're adding more insulation A modern technical clothing system and modern technical insulations can handle the moisture. They can handle these worst case scenarios. So now I'm in the tent, I've got my [00:50:00] puffy on, I'm in my sleeping bag.

You and I have stabilized the situation. I'm starting to warm up a little bit. The body heat that we've generated by moving around, setting the shelter up, has started to build some heat inside the system. Our body heat is actually gonna start to, I call it, cook the system dry. It's actually gonna start- Mm

pushing moisture from that base layer away from my skin to the outer layers of clothing. Once it's away from my skin, I'm gonna start to be able to, my body's gonna be able to thermoregulate itself better, to warm itself, to cool itself. It doesn't matter if layer two, three, and four is damp or wet or soaking wet.

It's what's right next to my skin. That base layer is critical.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: So now we can say, "All right, you start the stove. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the water bottles. We're gonna get a hot drink in us. What are we doing? We're stoking our internal engine, this metabolic engine that runs off food and fuel. I'm gonna get some hot [00:51:00] fluids in there.

Hopefully there's some calories to it, and we're gonna s- we're gonna start cranking that engine over, right? We're gonna get that diesel engine warming up." Okay, we good? Great. Now, eat a food bar or something, because I'm now gonna boil water and we're gonna eat a dehydrated meal. We're gonna add more calories on top of that.

We're really gonna get the metabolism going. And when you watch the video of Adam and I, I get out shivering. Adam starts to shiver after he gets out. Very interesting that that- Mm ... happened, but it did. But about 15 minutes in, in the tent, from getting out of the water, we're like, "All right, we f- we feel like we stabilized the situation.

Yes, it still sucks. Yes, we're still wet. Yes, we still can't go anywhere. But we're not gonna die right this second."

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: An hour in, Adam, I think, start, stopped shivering. We're laughing, we're eating. Now, now we c- now [00:52:00] that that has been achieved, we've, we've seeked equilibrium of some sort. Now is when you and I have the conversation.

"All right, man, go ahead, take off the clothes you have. If they're not drying yet, wring them out." Mm. "Do you ha- do you have an extra base layer?" I don't carry any extra clothes, so the answer from me is gonna be no.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: You're like, "Yeah, man, I've got an extra base layer and an extra, uh, mid layer." Okay, fine.

Take what you have off off. Put the dry on. But you're gonna have to put some wet stuff back on, and I'll tell you why. Because let's say we get out- Maybe we put puffy on, maybe we set up a shelter and get in there, and maybe we, we eat, drink, have a hot drink. But now the next, the next course of action is we're gonna strip off all those wet clothes, [00:53:00] we're gonna climb into our sleeping bags warm, full belly, everything's awesome.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: Until you wake up three hours from now and those wet clothes are now a frozen clump of uselessness- ... that now we're, we truly are naked and afraid. Okay? Because all you've done is not only push off the tough decision, but you've made it worse.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: Because at some point in time, either when the storm's still going or if you can weather it and wait for it's over, you're gonna have to get out and put that cold, wet, frozen clothing back on- Mm-hmm

and still figure out how to dry it out to get your ass out of the backcountry.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: So I'd rather do it up front, and with a modern clothing system, it's capable of doing that. I strongly encourage people to go and train and make sure that it works and how [00:54:00] it works. Do it in your backyard, don't do it in the middle of nowhere.

Hmm. But you will gain confidence in yourself and your kit. You will say, "You know what? I don't like how that pant performs. I'm gonna try that pant. I don't like how that sleeping bag performs. I'm gonna try that one." The reason we did that in the military, because if a guy does, if a guy skydives into the ocean in the middle of the night and his dry suit zipper is not clo- fully clothed and he gets wet, and now he's gonna go climb into a boat, and that boat's gonna scream 70 knots across the water to get to a place where he's gonna go onto a land and stay there for the next two weeks, he ain't not going 'cause he's wet.

Mm-hmm. He ain't not going 'cause he's cold. If the guy, you know, is swimming to shore underwater and his dry suit leaks or it gets torn on barnacles on a pier, you have to deal with it. Or you're crossing a canal in [00:55:00] Afghanistan and it's cold out, and you're gonna be there laying still for the next three days, you have to have a capability of staying dry, warming up, drying out, staying focused.

And so people always ask, "Yeah, bro, but I'm not a spec ops soldier." And I'm like, "I understand that, but The human is the human. No matter what we're doing, that stays the same. Human beings warm up, cool down, dry off the same way, no matter what we're doing. And no matter the weapon in our hand or the mission set, a backcountry hunter and a special operations soldier, they share a lot of similarities in the sense that the mission says you're going in, you're not coming out till the sig- mission's over.

Okay, check. And there's really no, nothing but success. There's no option for failure here. Mm-hmm. Okay? That's pretty extreme. [00:56:00] But I would argue you're gonna drive 12 hours up into the mountains. You're going to take two weeks of vacation you saved up and spend all the time to drive across the United States, take time away from your family.

It took you 10 years to draw the tag. You've got all this investment in clothing and gear, and you're gonna go into the mountains to chase elk or mule, deer, or sheep. And now that freak storm comes in and gets you wet in August at 13,000 feet, or it snows in early September. Are you... Do you wanna leave because you got wet?

Do you wanna leave because you got cold? Do you... I like to say, "I'm not gonna get pushed out of the mountains by Mother Nature. I'm gonna leave on my own terms."

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: Modern clothing, coupled with training and understanding its capabilities, allows you to do things that hunters even 20 years ago, let alone 50 years ago, excuse me, who were wearing cotton and flannel- Mm

and [00:57:00] denim. 'Cause I always get that question too. "Well, my, you know, granddad did it, Dad did it." And I'm like, "Yeah, you're right." But, but when I can sit on the glassy knob waiting for that one opportunity for that bighorn to poke himself out of the timber and I know where he is, I'm gonna be there in the storm when Granddad got pushed off the knob and he's back in the wall tent drinking whiskey with the fire going.

Mm-hmm. Because those jeans get wet, they're not drying out.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: I can, I can walk around the glassy knob and dry myself out just with body heat. So when you start to take it from the extreme and start to apply it to more realistic scenarios, you're like, "Oh, okay, I'm not a spec op soldier," but we still have, we still have this thing we wanna be really successful in.

And that success may be a dead animal. It may be just being able to go live there unsupported for 10 days and, and have a great time with my buddies- Mm-hmm ... and, and not die. Like, whatever it is, the modern gear gives [00:58:00] that, that capability. And so I've never answered a question ever in one sentence, so forgive me.

Um, but, but, but that's, but so that's what this is all about, and that's where the rewarming drill came from. Mm-hmm. And I saw such I saw such benefit of bringing it to the backcountry hunting community, and that's why d- I've done the videos. That's why I build the clothing. That's why I test it similarly.

We can talk about the one I did with Yonky, but Uh, even today when I'm building a new pant, a new jacket, I wanna see what the performance of it is. I wanna see how that n- new clothing layer integrates into everything else that I'm going to bring that I've already used. Is that new insulation really gonna perform or is it not?

Is that pant really gonna dry or not? Is it really gonna move moisture, that base layer, or is it not? And, and, and then [00:59:00] I know what I'm dealing with, and if there's a place for it to fit into the system. So real quick, can I talk about the active rewarming drill? Yeah. So the only other way, and, and the way that's-- It's a great way to intro it and, and it's, 'cause the other one's extreme, I understand that.

Takes time. But you and I could go to a trailhead. Pick our favorite trailhead, right? And we could drive there, and we've got, uh, if there's no creek, we bring a bucket full of water. Mm-hmm. If there's a creek, bring the bucket, fill it with water when you get there. And have all your, have your backpack for, like, a day hunt or even an overnighter.

Doesn't matter.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And now pull off, out, out of the back of the pickup truck, pull all the clothing you would normally wear to hike. Say, a base layer top, pair of boxers, a pair of pants. Maybe you got a, some type of, like, fleece hoodie. Put that in the bucket of water and get it as wet as you possibly can.

Pull it out, [01:00:00] wring it out, strip down, put that wet clothing on, lace up your boots, put on your pack, and you and your buddy start walking. Start a timer when you start walking. Be cognizant of if, and, and it, it helps if it's a little cool out in the morning, 'cause it'll- Mm-hmm ... drive a sense of urgency. How far down the trail, how many minutes before we start to say, "Oh, you know what?

I'm actually not cold anymore. Actually, can we slow our pace down? 'Cause I'm starting to sweat."

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: Think about how long it takes, and be cognizant of, "Oh, my base layer's starting to dry out. My pants are starting to dry out." Normally it's gonna be in the thighs, in the seat. Normally it's gonna be in your upper chest, on your, on your shoulders, right?

Stop every hour and say, and check yourself. Mm. "Is my base layer dry? Do I feel comfortable?" If I fell in the creek walking over the log on that spring bear hunt, and I [01:01:00] said, "I'm three miles from the truck. I don't have the capability to set up a tent and go through John's static rewarming. I'm gonna cut my distance to safety and improve my position, and start hiking back to the truck."

I'm probably gonna get back to the truck in three miles and go, "What was the big deal? I'm dry- Yep ... and warm." Sure. "I can reset." With some new socks and go back the next day.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: So I call that the active rewarming drill, and what that does is it shows you the performance of your system to manage moisture, and it gives you a confidence.

And it also allows you to, again, to say, "I like that pair of pants. I don't like that pair of pants."

Travis Bader: Mm. "

John Barklow: I like my synthetic base layer. I prefer merino wool." And go back and try it again. It's a great way to, to bond with your partners, great way to get in a workout, and it's a great way to test the performance of your clothing system.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

John Barklow: So sorry, that was like a 30-minute answer, but-

Travis Bader: No, that, that was a great answer ... there's

John Barklow: a lot there. Yeah.

Travis Bader: You know, there, there's a few things [01:02:00] I picked out. Uh, first one, kinda casually, living in British Columbia, a coastal environment- Oh, yeah ... it sounds really, sounds really nice. We live in a rainforest, right?

Well, that just means it rains all the time. Yeah. And the, the idea of truly, like certain months, certain times of the year, of truly having things dry out is, it's just not happening. You're- It's not

John Barklow: happening, right ...

Travis Bader: you're, you're dealing with the wet. But the other one that might be paradoxical to people as they listen to it, I know I was trying to piece it together a little bit.

So you talked about Mark Twight. Mark Twight wrote Extreme Alpinism- Yep ... and, uh, what, it's like Kiss, Kill, Beg. Yeah, uh,

John Barklow: Kiss, Kiss or Kill.

Travis Bader: Kiss or Kill. Yep. Yeah.

John Barklow: Yep, yep.

Travis Bader: Uh, couple great books. Um, actually, um, yeah, he's an interesting guy too. He'll, he's free and open with

John Barklow: his, uh-

Travis Bader: C-

John Barklow: can I, can I, can I share something with you?

Yeah. I've never s- I haven't said this publicly yet.

Travis Bader: Yeah, yeah.

John Barklow: So this is gonna be the first public announcement of this. Um, Mark was gracious enough to write the forward for my book.

Travis Bader: Seriously?

John Barklow: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay, so-

John Barklow: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: yeah, I know, um, years ago, [01:03:00] right when COVID first started, I talk, was talking with Mark, and he's like, "I'd love to do a podcast, but you gotta come down to either my studio in Salt Lake."

Oh, he wants it in person.

John Barklow: Yep,

Travis Bader: yep. Yeah, it's gotta be in person. Yep. I'm like, "100%. I'm, I'm on it. I'll fly in a plane." And then all the planes were locked down, and I, I sh- I should pick that one up again, but- Well,

John Barklow: he lives in Bozeman now.

Travis Bader: Does he? Right

John Barklow: where I live, yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay.

John Barklow: Yep.

Travis Bader: Yeah, he, I think he had two places, one there- He did

and then he had a studio. Okay.

John Barklow: He did, yeah.

Travis Bader: Well, Bozeman, I, I think I can get behind that. I know- Yeah ... friends, a good friend of mine is a, um, IMFGA mountain guide, uh, ACMG, IMFGA mountain guide. He did, um, a Special Forces selection in the UK there for SAS- Okay ... and, uh-

John Barklow: Yeah, yeah.

Travis Bader: Wow ... and he says, and he says, um, you know, the, um, uh, the whole IMFGA route to, to get certified is, is pretty intense.

And, and this Mark Twight guy, he, he was actually the one who turned me on to him to be, be- to begin with, a lot of his teachings that he has apply in my mountaineering world, but they also apply in my, [01:04:00] my military world. And we, uh, there's, there's a quite a, uh, an interesting overlap between what-

John Barklow: Yeah

Travis Bader: Special Forces does and what Mark kinda goes over. Yeah. But-

John Barklow: Yeah, I, I've, I've learned so much from Mark. I give him credit for a lot, even in the book. I'm honored that he wrote the forward. But- No

Travis Bader: kidding ...

John Barklow: you know, his, his teachings and what he did, he doesn't get as much credit, 'cause he doesn't talk about it, but what he did for the US Special Operations community, I can't speak for other countries, I, I do believe he worked with others, UK and, and Canada, but, um, what he did to help- To help more than anything, I said, "Mark, what you've done is you've provided a perspective and a mindset that we did not have."

And Extreme Alpinism is a book about alpinism or alpine climbing, but most of us, to include myself, would say that was the Bible that allowed us to prepare for war in the mountains.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: And he, obviously he [01:05:00] never wrote it with that intent, but it was about the mental preparation and, and pushing the extremes and testing your limits and, and working, you know, with your partners and, and crisis nutrition and, and all these things that, again, like your buddy said, there's so many crossovers, there's parallels that you can pull from, and you don't have to go as extreme as those folks, right?

Mm. But for the backcountry hunter, you're still going into a remote area, you've got this goal. It's this dynamic, chaotic environment you can't control. All you can control is you, your gear, your preparation. Like, man, all those lessons still apply.

Travis Bader: So the one part that I thought was possibly paradoxical, but you may have answered it in the, uh, uh, the trust in your kit.

It is Mark Twight is known for go fast, go light, because the longer you're out there with a heavy pack, the more exposure you have, but know when [01:06:00] to turn around, and there'll be times when he heads back. So the paradoxical part is you don't bring extra kit, but you're also not turning around. You're leaving on your own accord, right?

There's a-

John Barklow: So there's, there's, it, it, wow, such a great point. So, you know, if, if you t- if you s- I mean, what modern alpinists are doing today is, is absolutely insane. Even Mark would agree, but of course Mark was doing it back in his day.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: But the thing they, I mean, maybe they reference, maybe it's implied, maybe people who don't know or aren't aware don't, don't take for granted is- When you're cutting it to the fine razor's edge, you have to know your limitations, which, which comes from experience, right?

And if those guys get a bad weather window, if the storm comes in, if they drop the stove, if somebody loses an ice ax, they're, they're turning around and going [01:07:00] back. Mm. They're turning around and dr- and going down, okay? Because they have not built a margin of safety in. I mean, they haven't built a big margin of safety in.

Travis Bader: Sure.

John Barklow: It's, it's very, very narrow because they're very, very fine-tuned and good at what they do. I think people take the through hikers mindset, or they'll, they'll hear me talk on a, on this podcast and be like, "I'm, I'm doing it. I'm cutting the toothbrush. I'm not bringing the stove." You know? John said don't bring any extra clothes.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

John Barklow: And the reason I'm hesitant to say some of those things sometimes is just because you have to understand the context. Mm. One, I've got over 40 years of experience, 30 of it professionally. But The, the, the asterisk is if you're gonna go out there and you're gonna run a cold camp, you're not gonna bring a sleeping bag, you're only gonna bring a bivy sack, [01:08:00] um You have to have the mature decision-making ability to say, "I've gotta turn around and leave now."

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: That's still my terms. Sure, sure. I'm not getting, like, forced out, right? But I've purposely, consciously made that decision. I'm leaving. Hmm. Now, if I'm flying in or packing in on horses for a two-week moose hunt-

Travis Bader: Hmm ...

John Barklow: I'm bringing more stuff.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: Because I'm staying, and I've got the ability to bring more stuff.

But if I wanna go chase this mule deer that I've been seeing at 13,000 feet in Colorado, and my tactic is, "Hey, man, I can get in there, I can kill this buck in two days and get out, and to do that I need to travel as light as humanly possible," that's awesome. And I've, I, I tell more stories in the book of [01:09:00] failure than I ever do success.

Oh, interesting. And oftentimes it's me doing these kinda, like, ridiculous things where I'm like, "I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna get out, but if it doesn't work, I have to pull the pin right now and leave." Mm-hmm. Because I have not built any margin of safety in to allow me to weather that snowstorm for three days.

I got caught on Mount Rainier with a buddy one time. We were going in to climb it up and down in, in just one push.

Travis Bader: Wow.

John Barklow: And we got stuck halfway up the mountain for, in a three-day blizzard.

Travis Bader: And- It's, it's not a forgiving mountain ...

John Barklow: only thank goodness at the very last second did we throw in this little experimental tent, and it saved us.

But what really saved us was the luck of another group of climbers coming in in the blizzard, they must've been behind us, and setting up a very big, robust North Face tent that they allowed us to cook and socialize in their [01:10:00] vestibule Before we had to go back into this windy, drifty-

Travis Bader: Huh ...

John Barklow: barely adequate shelter, um, on the mountain.

Because our only other alternative at that point was to, you know, hunker down, which is what we chose to do, but if without them, we might've had to say, "We're gonna have to find our way back down the mountain through the crevasses- Mm-hmm ... in a blizzard," which is obviously not a, a very good choice.

Travis Bader: Was the other group that came up, and probably not, but just weird coincidences in the world, was the other group that came up, were they Canadians or the Americans?

John Barklow: Boy, I wouldn't even remember-

Travis Bader: Okay ...

John Barklow: honestly. I, I wouldn't even remember, it's been so long ago. Fair enough. I know it was like a VE, North Face VE 25, the big one.

Travis Bader: Oh, okay. Interesting. Uh- Yeah ... bu- buddy of mine told me a similar story, Canadian fellow, about some Americans and-

John Barklow: Hell, it might've been, man That's, that's why- If you wanna talk, that- I don't know.

That would be a, that would be a crazy coincidence.

Travis Bader: That would be a hell of a coincidence.

John Barklow: That would be. [01:11:00] 'Cause I give those guys c- a lot of credit for saving us. Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay. Now, now my mind totally went on a, uh ... off, off track. Uh, you were talking about, uh, mindset. There, there was one other piece in there I wanted to touch on, but I'm sure it'll come back.

John Barklow: Crisis nutrition or...

Travis Bader: Yeah. Well, uh, on the mindset side, how do you, uh, how do you keep your mind straight? How do you, uh, I, I mean, there are books and there's lessons and courses on mental toughness, but what, what do you do?

John Barklow: Well, the first thing is I think that when you plan and prepare, that that creates confidence, and that confidence allows you to endure some difficult times, and it allows you to make better decisions than if you didn't have that confidence based on not, you know, bro science and [01:12:00] bravado, but, you know, actual preparedness and, and planning.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: So I think that is, uh, the first component of that, i.e., I tested my system, I shot my weapon, I know how to set up the tent in the dark, in the wind, whatever. I think the other part of it is for me, and you hear this a lot from other people going through, you know, different military selections or, you know, running a 200-mile ultra race or whatever is- Hmm

keeping your world small and keeping... Not overwhelming yourself, which for me is easy to do 'cause I'm like this planner and I'm thinking details.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: I can't think of the 200-mile race, I can't think of the 10-day hunt. I can only think of, you know, getting to the next rest break, getting to the glassy knob, getting- Hmm

to camp. Um, you know, the, the next meal. Eating the elephant in small bites, right? Okay. Because if not, it's real [01:13:00] easy, especially when you're, when you're new to it, to stand there at the, at the trailhead and look up into the mountains. You get dropped off and, you know, the last sounds of the float plane-

and you have nothing but your own thoughts in your head to- Mm-hmm ... really self-destruct.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: And at that point, it's what's the first task, what's the second task, what's the third task? When, you know, when's, when's the next meal? Um, w- you know, hey, you know, let's see who can spot, you know, the, the, the first legal ram and, and that person buys the beer when we get out of here, or that person, you know, gets first shot or whatever it is.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: And you just, you just set these really short goals that you can work through, um- You know, I, a- and that's not to say I'm, I'm, I'm not, uh, I'm not immune to becoming overwhelmed at times, but then I just try to look at the immediacy of [01:14:00] what I need to do next.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And so I've talked to a lot of guys who are like, "Yeah, you know, I've, I've got this, you know, seven-mile hike to get into base camp," as an example.

Travis Bader: Mm. "

John Barklow: And I've got altitude or a pass to go over or whatever it is and, you know, it just, it kicks my butt and..." And I'm like, "Well, have you ever thought about just hiking for 50 minutes and stopping for 10, and hiking for 50 minutes and stopping for 10?" And so instead of thinking about the seven miles and the pass you need to go over, you're thinking about, "Well, in 50 minutes I'm gonna stop.

We're gonna get something to eat, get some water, look at the map, and then we're just gonna go for another 50 minutes." Mm. "Then we're going for another 50 minutes." Now, I'm really bad at that, and I'm really quite good at putting my head down and not wanting to stop, but I realized and I learned when I was, when I was instructing and I had guys, and, and not just from a, a military tactical [01:15:00] perspective, but being able to manage people in a collective, in a group, and like, "Hey, do we need to, you know, strip a layer?

Do we need to, you know, fix a blister? Do we need to do that?" And, and when the group decides we're gonna do this at 50 minutes, then everybody holds each other accountable and you're like, "No, you said we'd stop at 50 minutes. Look, we're stopping at 50 minutes." And so all these little things I, I think help.

Planning and preparing build confidence. Confidence allows you to make good decisions. Keeping your world small, thinking about the immediate task at hand, and then just going from there, right? And all that over time, based w- on some experience, really starts to build... It's not m- it's not, it's not necessarily mental toughness, because you can talk to people who are like, "Bro, I, I ice bath every day.

I hit my workout. I do my runs. I'm up at 4:00 AM," [01:16:00] whatever it is. They have the discipline. They have the mental discipline. They have the toughness. But what I think oftentimes, and I'm, I'm guilty of it 'cause I love it. But we romanticize the backcountry. Sure. We romanticize the mountains, okay? And we should to some extent, but we should also tell them, dot, dot, dot, that it's lonely, that it's painful- Mm

that you're hungry, that you're thirsty, that your feet hurt, that you question everything you're doing. You wonder if you'll ever be able to kill another animal ever. Are you good enough to be here, you know? Mm-hmm. What if things to death. Like, that's part of it as well, and I think that if you're coming from, and I talk about this, I write about this, but when you're coming from an organized sport, soccer, football, baseball, even, even ultra runs [01:17:00] where there's aid stations-

Travis Bader: Mm

John Barklow: and there's a time limit. Well, they're gonna pull me off the course at 12 hours. Well, we only play 15-minute, uh, quarters, or, you know, if I get hurt, the doc's gonna run on the field and, and take care of me, or there's gonna be a referee to call a timeout if I need it. None of that happens in the mountains.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: It's not an organized sport, and I think that sometimes it's easy to get overwhelmed, like, "Bro, did I pack everything I needed to? Do I have enough food? Can I warm up and dry out if I get wet?" And you start to question yourself until you get some experience, and it's, it's not this organized thing.

And so I think you owe it to yourself- Or you owe it to the people that you're leaving behind, your family-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

John Barklow: to prepare because I don't know of anybody, certainly I have never come back from a backcountry hunt and said, "I was over-prepared. I [01:18:00] was in too good a shape." "I crushed this and was better than I needed to be."

Mm-hmm. I've never, I've never done that.

Travis Bader: No.

John Barklow: I always come back going, "I need to do this better, I need to do that better, I need to remember this, I need to bring that." Now, I've had good hunts where things have gone well, but there's always something more to learn, right? And so I think when you're really fit in the gym, you can kick your butt at altitude, 'cause you're trying to do your, you know, your splits.

Mm. It's like that's not the kind of environment it is. The environment is you need to be durable and you need to be capable of enduring the elements to achieve whatever you're trying to achieve when you're out there.

Travis Bader: So if my AI overlords are, um, correct in my research for this, and like I say, I got seven pages of research- Yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Barklow: yeah

Travis Bader: that I was putting together ahead of time, which has bit me in the butt before. That was, uh, Jim Shockey, talking with him, and, uh, it said that he was with a... I kept digging in, like, "What's one thing no one's asked him about? What's one...?" And he, he says, "Oh, [01:19:00] ask him about his time with the PPCLI, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry."

So I ask him. "The what? The pee pee what?" Anyway, so all right, how do I recover from this one? But, um, okay, you've talked about cu- hunts where everything go well. What about something I read about, um, I think it was a BC hunt where, uh, pack mules and things went wrong.

John Barklow: Yeah. No, like I said, I've had, uh, I've had...

I mean, I've had lots of success. I've been blessed. I'm, you know, not, not, not gonna tell you I haven't been and all that, but-

Travis Bader: Beautiful

John Barklow: You know, what, what, what can be overlooked when you, when you see things like that is all the hunts where you didn't get anything, where something- Hmm ... did go wrong, where I, I got lonely and decided to leave early, and then regretted it for the next, you know, year till I could go back and kind of, uh, you know, redeem myself so to speak.

And yeah, [01:20:00] that, that particular hunt, and, and it, it's, it's not, uh, it's not 'cause it's bad or anything. I just- Hmm ... I, I won't mention the outfitter. He's a friend of mine. They do great. Um, but I'm not the great... I'm not the best horseman by any means, right? And this was gonna be my first real, you know, Canadian horseback hunt in the middle of nowhere.

We flew in. And, you know, I'm, I'm going into this hunt with a, an incredible amount of experience, not necessarily with horses. But, uh, yeah, so everything was going good. I mean, the hunting wasn't that great. I never even saw a bull moose. Um, but we had some success in camp, had some fun. But on the ride out, 'cause we were the last people in camp, we were gonna trail out back to the, the, the, you know, the road.

And, uh, the conditions were not good. Everything [01:21:00] was iced over. Winter was coming in, pushing us out of the mountains in, you know, mid-October. And, uh, long story short, in the dark riding without headlamps through the most treacherous part of the trail where, I don't know, if memory serves, there were a lot, a lot of horse skeletons- Hmm

from other, excuse me, from other horses who had not been fortunate enough to make it out of there. We'd already gone through some bogs that, that almost swallowed a few horses. Anyways, luckily we were riding through this thing in the dark, and I'm just following the horse. My horse is following the horse in front of him-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

John Barklow: which is being trailed by one of the wranglers, and she's like, "Yeah, don't... You know, just keep the headlamps off," and this and that. And we had 24 horses I think. A lot of, a lot of horses, a lot of people. And the next thing I know 'Cause I can't see anything. I just realize [01:22:00] that my horse has fallen on top of me- Mm

and I am pinned against, thank God, a flat boulder on my left side, a tree pushing on the back of my neck, and this giant 1,400 pound, I think he was a Friesian, laying on top of me, in the dark with guys behind me that are gonna ride right on top of me because they don't know anything's happened. So of course, 'cause I was in the Navy and I'd got a merit badge in, in swearing, that I started swearing out loud.

Um, and, you know, immediately... So nobody rode on top of me, but immediately- Mm ... I see headlamps start popping on, and I knew that I had to get out from underneath this horse really quick, 'cause if he started to thrash-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

John Barklow: he was gonna tear me up And, uh, so luckily my left foot was out of the stirrup. I got... I took my [01:23:00] pack off.

I got f- out from underneath the horse, who's now stuck in this hole, and as the lights come on, I turn my light on. We are riding through a giant boulder field with this very narrow secur- circuitous path through.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: And he had just stepped wrong one way and fell in, like, a three-foot hole, and is now wedged in, in this hole between these boulders.

So luckily we were able to cut down that one little tree that had pinned me, took off his saddle, and eventually got him to stand, or it probably wasn't gonna end... He was gonna be another skeleton on the trail.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: Um, and so it worked out okay. Seemingly, I was unhurt. I'm not going to necessarily tell you it was a direct result of the wreck, but I will tell you that the wreck did nothing to...

It probably sped up me getting my left hip replaced, uh, which would've been two years ago, [01:24:00] which would've been, I don't know, six years probably post horse wreck.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: Um, to add insult to injury of getting in the wreck, I call it a wreck, I don't know what- Yeah, yeah ... you're supposed to call it, but getting in the horse wreck, 'cause it felt like a car wreck.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: Um, never seen a legal bull, having everybody in camp kill wonderful moose and mountain caribou. To add insult to injury, uh, I got giardia 15 days after coming home. Oh. Uh, and that's honestly the part that I'm most upset about, 'cause hunting's hunting, you know, things happen.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: The reason I'm upset about the giardia, I'm not upset at the outfitter.

I could be. Like I said, he's a friend of mine. But me and my two buddies got it. Nobody else. The outfitters and wranglers, they didn't get it. The guides, they'd been living there for three months, right? Mm. Their, their guts were probably used to it. What [01:25:00] upsets me is that I shoulda known better, and I... Not that I trusted people wrongly, but I should have brought, 'cause we were flying in and riding horses, and I know that water is such a priority, and I'd been drinking water or choosing to drink water selectively from streams without filtration or purification for decades And I knew on day one or two that we were probably in for it because of the water sources we were gathering it from, where the horses were hobbled.

And, uh, I'm pissed at myself because I didn't bring a filter. Sure. I didn't bring a SteriPEN. I didn't bring something to back myself up, and I should've.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: And so that's an unforced error on my part. So yeah, the horse wreck, yeah, the not good hunting, it was still a wonderful adventure. That's [01:26:00] the part, getting the giardia because I didn't think through a possible scenario is what, is what irritates me.

Travis Bader: Yeah. That's giardia. Does it, does it stick around for a while?

John Barklow: Um-

Travis Bader: Or

John Barklow: you get a- ... as soon as you, as soon as you take the medication, like within hours, you feel much better and you don't have the symptoms.

Travis Bader: Okay.

John Barklow: Within 12 hours, all the symptoms are gone. I think you take it for seven to 10 days. I can tell you That it is a humiliating, miserable experience that I would only wish upon my worst enemies.

I never wanna get it again, and I will do everything in my power to never get it again.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: But I've heard, 'cause my, the one, the first guy that said he had symptoms has had it like three or four times, and he said his, his doc said that once you get it you're more [01:27:00] prone to potentially getting it again.

Travis Bader: Okay.

John Barklow: Um, how I got it, it was 13 or 14 days post getting out of the field. The gestation period's supposed to be no longer than, it's like seven to 10, seven to 15 maybe. I, I j- it just, I still don't know exactly where, how, but, you know, maybe that was just the way my body was able to process it. But yeah, one guy got it in seven days, one guy's symptoms started in 10, and mine started like 13 or 14.

Travis Bader: So this last November I had knee surgery, probably too much weight going up and down in the mountains. And, um, you know, a friend of mine, he's been on the podcast a couple times now, uh, ex, uh, PH from Africa, and he does, um, security. He was, uh, Oprah's bodyguard and there's few, few famous people in there. So those are fun episodes to talk about.

But, um, [01:28:00] he says, "Trav, don't let the old man in." Okay, now you've had your hip surgery, hip replacement there. What do you do to not let the old man in, or is there a process of gracefully, uh, accepting things? Because in my mind, I don't see a gracefully accepting things-

John Barklow: No ...

Travis Bader: for myself.

John Barklow: No. So I'm gonna try not to swear, but I'm just gonna say heck no.

Oh,

Travis Bader: you

John Barklow: swear. I'm gonna say heck no.

Travis Bader: Yeah, okay.

John Barklow: Uh, I'm gonna tell you something. So I told you about the left hip I had replaced two years ago.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: I had my right replaced 10 weeks ago.

Travis Bader: 10 weeks ago.

John Barklow: And I challenge you to come do a hike with me, get in the gym- ... and tell me I had my right hip done 10 weeks ago.

Travis Bader: Good for you. Because-

John Barklow: Because I just had to do it. Yeah. And so it's maintenance, and it's like, I'm going into it going, "Hell no, this isn't gonna stop me. Hell no, this isn't gonna define me." Yeah, it might [01:29:00] take me, you know, I think it took me two weeks. It took me two weeks longer to like get back to I'll call it 98% this one than- Sure

the last one. Two years older, you know?

Travis Bader: Sure.

John Barklow: But I, I trained. I trained for surgery.

Travis Bader: That's the piece.

John Barklow: That's why I originally quit drinking. Mm-hmm. I changed my diet. I needed to remove inflammation. I needed to take weight off. I needed to get more mobile. I needed to get stronger and fitter for surgery so I could recover- Mm-hmm

quicker.

Travis Bader: That's the piece.

John Barklow: Yeah, I get it. Like, you know, I, I'm the, I'm the quote old, old guy, right? In the military, I'm 42. And I'm running around with guys that are 18 and 20 are phenomenally fit.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: How did I keep up? How did I balance it? Not by saying, "Hey guys, we're gonna take a break 'cause I'm tired."

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: It's 'cause I've got a lot of experience. I've got good technique. I, I know, I know what I'm getting myself into, right? And so that balanced out their [01:30:00] fitness. It's the same thing with the backcountry hunter. But no, I think it's a mindset, going back to mindset. Uh, and you know, a- am I as... You know, I lost a step when I turned 40.

I, I lost, I said I lost half a step when I turned 40. Mm. I lost another half when I turned 50 But I've also got more experience, and so I challenge people. I'm like, "Yeah, I'll go out with you. I might, I might keep up, I might not, but I, I'll probably be the last person standing here too." And, and I'm certainly here to answer questions when you have them.

So it's, it's just a different way of shifting it, right? I'm trying to be smarter, not, not be harder. 'Cause I can't be.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

John Barklow: But I'm not giving up. I mean, give- giving up, giving in is like, that's a death sentence. I might have to hunt elk or, or mule deer or sheep differently when I'm 60 or 70 than I did when I was 30 or 40, but that doesn't mean you don't have to go and [01:31:00] do it.

Travis Bader: Agreed.

John Barklow: It's just a little bit of a sliding scale. But I'm not letting the old man in. I'm not letting the old man in at all. I'm the oldest guy, there's me and another guy are tied, but I'm the oldest guy at Sitka, and I've got, me and, me and my buddy Eric, we've got most people at the company beat by 20 years.

Travis Bader: Really?

John Barklow: Yeah. But it's attitude, man. It's, it's-

Travis Bader: 100%.

John Barklow: I mean, you know, I have no idea how old you are, don't care, but I know that you get after it. I can just tell by your attitude, you're not gonna give up. If you love it enough like I think we do-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

John Barklow: you're not gonna find excuses to quit, you're gonna find reasons to keep going, and you're gonna, you're gonna just modify your behavior.

And yeah, I had to stop drinking. And I told myself, "John, you can't do the same thing at 50 that you were able to do at 30 and expect to [01:32:00] perform the same."

Travis Bader: Right.

John Barklow: You have to start modifying behavior. And, and I did, and I'm happy with that, and I'm sure I'll have to refine it a little bit- ... going forward, and that's fine.

I'm willing to pay that to keep doing what I love.

Travis Bader: Yeah. I agree. Well, I don't think we've, um, t- touched on your book enough. Uh, who's the optimal audience for the, uh, the book that's gonna be coming out?

John Barklow: So this podcast so far has been absolutely wonderful because it hasn't just focused on hunting. I think we've talked about, you know, the climbing aspect and just, you know, through-hiking and things like that.

My book draws on, I'll say 40 years, but really specifically 30 years of experience in the mountains, on my own adventures, teaching professionally, teaching thousands of guys, professional search and rescue teams. And basically I try to bring all my lessons learned- [01:33:00] Here's what I did wrong. Here's what I learned from it.

Here's how you can maybe avoid the same mistake.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: It is for anybody who is looking to go out into the mountains, out into the backcountry to pursue any kind of outdoor adventure. It, the book is for them. I talk about backcountry hunting. I talk about alpine climbing. I talk about backcountry skiing. I talk and relate to stories of, uh, you know, military training.

And I use those stories to provide context, to provide some authenticity to what I'm speaking of, and to drive home key points of learning where I say, "Hey, you know, if I were you, I'd learn to ride a horse before you go to British Columbia on a 14-day horseback hunt." Yeah. "And here's why That's the knowledge from the storms that the book is named [01:34:00] after.

So there's hunt- there's, again, there's hunting stories for sure.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: But there's stories of, you know, partnerships in the mountains on climbing trips where things did not go well.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: But I believe those stories and those lessons can be extrapolated to any backcountry partnership, no matter what you're doing.

And, and crisis nutrition, you know, I, that's what I call how we fuel ourselves in the backcountry in this kind of dynamic environment. You know, I, I, I, I talk about stories from, from the military. I talk about stories, you know, and, and things Mark related to me. Um, so it, it's an amalgamation of adventure. I call it part adventure narrative, part instruction manual.

And, and anybody who's interested in going outdoors and just pursuing whatever it may be, I think there's something in it for them.

Travis Bader: Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to reading it. Is there anything that we should be talking about that we haven't talked [01:35:00] about?

John Barklow: Well, I, my mind was going down the... 'Cause I've, I've got some other stuff online, but let's not promote that at the moment. Um-

Travis Bader: Hold on, the, you do have something else. Isn't there an Outdoor Class, outdoorclass.com?

John Barklow: Yeah, so I, I'm one of the instructors for what this is called, uh, it's called Outdoor Class.

It's outdoorclass.com. Hmm. It's owned by Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. And they've got a wonderful stable of instructors, some of the best at what they do in their fields. Everything from, you know, Corey Jacob from Elk Hunting, Randy Newberg, Antelope Hunting, uh, Remy Warren's got a course in there I think on backcountry mule deer hunting.

There's cooking. You know, so I, I'm building out my courses on kind of the things we've talked about. I've got a course on backcountry mission planning. My second course is survival for the modern outdoors man. My third course is [01:36:00] backpack hunting, and I've got eight more that, that I've got coming out. Um, two of which, uh, you know, have already been filmed.

And, you know, for, for an annual, for I think a meager annual membership- It,

Travis Bader: it is meager ...

John Barklow: you don't, you don't get access to John Barklow and his courses. You get access to everybody in the ecosystem.

Travis Bader: And it's worth it for just one of them.

John Barklow: It's... I, I agree. Even for me it's like, man, to have acc- we talked about it, to Corey Jacobson's Elk 101 that has probably 70 individual chapters now- Mm-hmm

is just insane. Mm-hmm. You know? But there's unique courses. Randy Newberg talks about antelope hunting. I don't know if there's another course in the world about hunting antelope. Mm-hmm. He talks about cow elk hunting. I'm like, who does a course about cow elk hunting? Well, Randy did, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, that's unique.

So there's some fun stuff there. And then on, uh... So that, but that, that's, you know, that's a pay to play. But, uh, I [01:37:00] also work with Montana Knife Company, and on their YouTube channel, which is, I believe Montana Knife Company- Mm-hmm ... there's the MKC Survival Guide, and I've got I think 60 videos or close to so far, uh, 60 videos on there, and it's everything we've talked about and then some.

Mm-hmm. I mean, everything. I'm, I'm gonna do some stuff on, on map reading and, you know, there's mindset. We, we actually did one of the rewarming drills with Josh Smith there. But that's just, you know, lots and lots and lots of content there that's free, that people can just dive into, probably go down all kinds of rabbit holes.

Hmm. Again, at this part of my life, I mean, I'm, yeah, I'm still having my own adventures, but I, I really just feel this, this compulsion, this, this, this need to give back. Um, I like to tell people, you know, at the end of the day, you've gotta climb the mountain for yourself. I can help you [01:38:00] start a little bit higher on the mountain, but ultimately you've gotta do the rest, you know, on your own.

I can help you avoid maybe some of the common pitfalls and, you know, you don't have to make all the same mistakes I made or had to remake the same mistakes that I had to re- relearn. Um, but it's a great resource. I think there's so many great resources. These podcasts are another great resource. Uh, but you know, ultimately it's like go out there and have your own adventures, and if you don't have all the gear or you're not ready to go in the middle of nowhere for 10 days, it's like who cares?

Go out for an overnight. Go out for a long day. Um, you know, hunt around the house, then hunt in another province or state, then maybe hunt in another country. It's like I, I like to say that I'm a student of the game, and I think if you approach it that way, which is to say I'm never gonna be a master, but I'm gonna seek mastery.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

John Barklow: And that ever since I, you know, that 13-year-old kid in Ohio, I've been on this lifelong journey of [01:39:00] explor- exploration and adventure, and I happen to be at a certain place on my journey, and everybody's gonna be at a different place on theirs, and it's all been enjoyable. And I think I haven't always felt it was enjoyable all the time.

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: But I tell people, it's like, "But enjoy where you are."

Yes.

John Barklow: You know? Enjoy where you are. Don't... I, I, I get it all the time because I live in Montana, and people are like, "Man," like, "I wanna go public land bow hunting for elk in the middle of nowhere the mountains."

Travis Bader: Mm.

John Barklow: You know, the backcountry. And I'm like, "Dude, that is an exceptionally great goal," but you are talking, in my opinion, at least a master's level type of hunting.

With everything that you've got to know and learn and do to even give your chan- your, your, your s- self a [01:40:00] chance of success, let alone when you kill, how do you get it out? And I'm like, "I just wouldn't start there." Mm-hmm. I'm not trying to not encourage people, but I just wouldn't start there. I'd say I aspire to do that at some point in time.

Rifle, bow, doesn't matter, but, but enjoy where you are now. And if where you are now is I can only go do a day hunt for mule deer, fine. Or I'm gonna go out west for the first time and chase black bear in the spring, that's awesome. Or hey, I just drew my first tag and it's an antelope tag, and I'm gonna know I'm gonna have a stalk every day, and if I kill, I now need mules to get it out of the mountains.

It's like, start there. Mm-hmm. Go backpacking. Go hike to a high lake and, and, uh, you know, and, and run a trout line or learn how to fish or live from a, a survival shelter f- overnight. Yeah. Learn to start fires in the [01:41:00] snow. It's like this wonderful adventure that you can have year-round that you don't need a tag, you don't need to draw something, you don't need a deadline hanging over your head.

Um, so, you know, when people ask me, I just encourage them. I'm like, "Start somewhere and go do something and just, just get momentum." And y- if you don't have all the right gear, that's fine. You know? You don't have to buy John's eight-piece clothing system. Just get something and go, but understand, just like we talked about, if you don't have all the right gear, if you don't have all the right experience, also don't charter the Beaver to go drop you off in the middle of nowhere for a 14-day caribou hunt.

Travis Bader: Right.

John Barklow: You know? Just be a little realistic about it

Travis Bader: I love it. Well, John, uh, there is a lot more that I had down here, but I'm also, uh, conscious of kind of the time. Like we didn't- Well,

John Barklow: I apologize for my long-winded answers, but-

Travis Bader: Oh, I love it. I, [01:42:00] you know, we didn't even get into the invisible cloak stuff that I had here.

John Barklow: Ah. You know- Don't... Shh. No, that we weren't supposed to talk

Travis Bader: about that. But I, uh, I r- I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I

John Barklow: did too.

Travis Bader: And I'm looking forward to, uh, I know we were talking about ahead of time, I'm looking forward to when you're back up here in BC and we get together. But I think I might have to come down to your neck of the woods as well and, uh- Well,

John Barklow: you're more than welcome.

The Bozeman area, and maybe you'll get to, you know, talk to Mark and meet him, and maybe do that podcast.

Travis Bader: Well, thank you so much for being on the Silvercore Podcast.

John Barklow: Thanks for the invite, Travis.