Silvercore Podcast 185 Noah Schwartz

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Before we dive into this one, two things. First, The Silvercore Club. This is honestly the simplest way to keep yourself covered. ATT, support, and liability insurance all in one membership. No piecing things together, no gaps, just clean, straightforward coverage so you can focus on the range and not on the paperwork.

Secondly, today's guest, Noah Schwartz, tells me that publishers don't really have an appetite for books like his. They don't think that people out there are actually interested in reading them. If you like what Noah has to say and you want to see more work from him and others like him, I would highly, highly, highly recommend that you purchase his book.

There's gonna be a link in the bio. I know times are tough. Things can be tight with a lot of [00:01:00] people. If you're unable to make a purchase, leaving a review for the book or sharing it with others would mean a great deal to helping authors like Noah be able to produce more content like this in the future.

[00:01:13] Noah Schwartz: Now, without further ado, let's get on with this episode. 

[00:01:16] Travis Bader: For years, Ottawa has passed sweeping firearms legislation without a single study to back it up. My guest today is the political scientist who checked the homework. He took the safety courses himself. He sat at 84 kitchen tables across the country, and in his book Targeted, wrote the first academic book about Canada's gun community told in their own words.

Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, Noah Schwartz. 

[00:01:42] Noah Schwartz: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:01:43] Travis Bader: Oh, it's good to have you here. It was, uh... I enjoyed, uh, chatting with you at the NFA event where, uh, you were, you and I were both guest speakers there. 

[00:01:52] Noah Schwartz: Yeah 

[00:01:53] Travis Bader: That was a fun one, eh? 

[00:01:54] Noah Schwartz: It was great. It was great to be able to get together with, with other folks, uh, who doing, doing work on this and, and, yeah, share our [00:02:00] stories and share our thoughts.

[00:02:01] Travis Bader: Yeah. Okay. So educate me, a fellow who just did the minimum number of university credits so he could apply when he's 20 years old to the Vancouver Police, uh, what does a political scientist do, and why would you be attracted to writing about firearms and guns, particularly in an environment that seems to be adverse to that?

[00:02:26] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. Those are two great questions. So a political scientist, uh, a type of academic that looks at the study of politics. Mm. So broadly speaking, the study of, of power and how power operates. Uh, mainly we look at sort of polit- big political institutions, parliament, the courts, things like that. Um, but I've always been interested in how politics happens in different ways and, and advocacy and social movements are one of the really interesting areas, 'cause it's where citizens can really get involved and have their voice heard in a way that's hard to do when you live, you know, 5,000 clicks from Ottawa, where these decisions are being made.

[00:02:57] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:02:58] Noah Schwartz: So that, that sort of got my interest [00:03:00] in st- in studying advocacy. And, and how I studied firearms, started studying firearms, was completely a fluke. So I was doing my, uh, doctorate back in Ottawa and, and for context and background, I grew up in a family that, um, was very, very, you know, against guns. 

[00:03:14] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:03:14] Noah Schwartz: I wasn't even allowed to play with Nerf guns when I was a kid.

Oh, really? Yes. Okay. 

[00:03:17] Travis Bader: Fair enough. 

[00:03:18] Noah Schwartz: Um, and so when I... You know, going into this, doing my PhD, I, I really had no idea about guns and the gun world. Um, I was gonna do my PhD on the politics of history in the relations between China and Japan. I was even taking Mandarin courses at the time. 

[00:03:33] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:03:33] Noah Schwartz: I very quickly realized that learning Mandarin and doing a PhD at the same time-

was maybe I'd bit off a bit too much, a bit more than I could chew. Uh-huh. So I'm kind of searching around for another subject that involves those kind of two loves that I have, history and politics, and I'm messing around in the internet. There was a story in the news, I, I can't remember now. This was, like, a decade ago.

Um, but I went on the website of the American NRA, and I found that they have firearms museums. 

[00:03:58] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:03:59] Noah Schwartz: Not just one, but [00:04:00] three, and that kind of got me interested. So I started doing research on, on gun politics. Um, I said, "You know what? If I'm gonna study this, I need to know actually what the process looks like from the inside."

Mm. Um, so as you said, I took the PAL class and the RPAL class. I'm very proud to say I passed. Good. I was in Ontario, so I took the Hunter's Ed program as well. 

[00:04:20] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:20] Noah Schwartz: Um, and just kind of fell into this area of study. So as I said, I started off looking at the, the politics in the United States. I very quickly realized that there is a debate going on here in Canada- 

[00:04:30] Travis Bader: Mm

[00:04:30] Noah Schwartz: um, that's I think way more interesting actually than what's happening in, in the US. What's happening in the US, the, the gun debate in the US has been, you know, the battle lines have been drawn for ages, and there's, there's not really much movement a- and nothing happening. But in Canada, there's so much shifting.

Um, the, the- typical cast of characters that you have doesn't look like it does in the stereotype of the United States. 

[00:04:53] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:04:54] Noah Schwartz: So I actually found the Canadian gun debate much more interesting, and I said, "I'm gonna study this now." 

[00:04:58] Travis Bader: So you talk about the cast of [00:05:00] characters. Yeah. I, I'm sure you had a bit of a, uh, a preconception of what that would look like prior to getting into this.

How did that change as you started going through your study? And what did it look like to you to begin with, a guy who couldn't even touch Nerf guns, to, uh, where you endeavored to stick your toe in the water and then jump full into the pool? 

[00:05:18] Noah Schwartz: Yeah, no, I m- it, it, it's been a wild ride. I think m- so my first experience actually with real firearms was, was through, uh, an ex-girlfriend.

[00:05:26] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:05:27] Noah Schwartz: So she was obviously not my ex at the time. Uh, but she was from rural Alberta. Um, and we went back to visit her family, and, uh, they had firearms, so we went shooting on, on her property. And that sort of was one of the cracks that first started to appear in my, my old view of kind of guns and gun owners coming from completely the outside and having- Mm

you know, those... I'm, I'm from suburban Ottawa. I have those kind of urban preconceptions that a lot of people had, uh, about people in the gun community. And, and that was kind of the first crack that started to appear, 'cause I realized these are normal people. You know, her parents were school teachers, [00:06:00] right?

The, these, um, we're shooting safely in the backyard with, uh, all of the rules in place, and everybody was licensed and, and, and following the, you know, the regulations. And I was like, "Oh, wow, this is actually an activity that people do that's fun and safe and, and completely normative." Um, and as I got further into that world, I think those preconceptions broke down.

You, you, you know, the, the best solution to political polarization is meeting people, and meeting people- Yes ... that you, are different from you and come from different walks of life. And over the course of my research, I've had the com- honor of meeting hundreds of people from across Canada, from the far north to downtown Toronto, um, who are interested in guns, and getting to know their perspective and, and they look...

Every pers- each of those people is completely unique, you know? 

[00:06:45] Travis Bader: Y- you know, the more people that I meet that are completely different from myself, they come from different backgrounds, they have different beliefs, they have different perspectives on, on the world, the more I find how closely we actually are related and how [00:07:00] much we really do have in common.

And we seem to live in a society that wants to, and I guess we've always lived in a society that wants to polarize, maybe not at the velocity that's happening right now, but the, uh, the tribalism has always been in place. Um, being able to just sit down at the table with people who you have a preconception about, or you might even completely disagree with what you think their, their, uh, their background or their ideas are, like that's, I think that's something that's really tough for a lot of people, particularly nowadays when you're rewarded with a short attention span, you're rewarded with the quick clips on, uh, social media and the quick comebacks, and I don't even have to listen to you because you're in this camp and I'm in that camp.

Did you, did you find that... Like, obviously you would have to park your preconceptions going in, but that doesn't necessarily mean the people that you're talking to are gonna park their preconceptions about you. 

[00:07:53] Noah Schwartz: No, that- That's for sure. And being... You know, I always talk about being, like, the, you know, uh, Jewish academic from the suburbs [00:08:00] with glasses and, you know.

Sure. I, I don't look like I sat at the cool kids' club, right- ... in high school. Fair 

[00:08:06] Travis Bader: enough. 

[00:08:07] Noah Schwartz: So, so it's always, you know, going into the, into spaces and, and... But I've, I've always been amazed by how friendly people are, right? Mm. Like, when you, when you put yourself out there in, in a non-online space, and you introduce yourself to people in real life.

Like, it's really easy to be mean on, on X or on BlueSky. Mm. It- it's really hard to be mean to someone in person to their face, and, and I, I think that that really helps us get over a lot of stuff, especially in a, in a country as geographically enormous as Canada. 

[00:08:33] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:08:33] Noah Schwartz: Where, like, how many people who grew up in Ottawa are gonna go out and shoot guns in rural Alberta, right?

Like, three hours north of Edmonton. That, you know, that's not an experience that every- everybody gets to have. And, and so I think, once again, that meeting face-to-face, talking to people, going out a- a- and shooting with folks, um, yeah, it's just, it's eye-opening. 

[00:08:51] Travis Bader: So you talk about the American gun culture, and you talk about Canadian gun culture, and there's a difference between the two of them.

And the Americans, they're [00:09:00] enshrined. These are our rights. This is what we have. Whereas Canada, we're looking to be treated like citizens, essentially. I think that was c- coming out in your work there. Can you walk me through that distinction and why that's load-bearing? 

[00:09:13] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. That, that was really the key point of Targeted, the book, uh, the book that I wrote, um, that I, I really wanted to drive and, and get across.

As I said, my first book was on the National Rifle Association and American gun culture and politics, right? Um, and, and looking at it in Canada, um, just- The differences that I observed in the way that people think about themselves, think about firearms in their lives, and think about their community, uh, was, was quite stark, and that, how that comes out in advocacy.

So I think Canadian gun owners see themselves as highly regulated people who have worked really hard. They've sacrificed elements of their personal privacy. One thing I tell people, especially my students in, in my gun politics class, I say, "You know, when you apply for your firearms license, if you've had a breakup in the last two years, you have to tell the [00:10:00] RCMP and give them your ex's information."

Mm-hmm. O- o- or give them a phone call. 

[00:10:04] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:04] Noah Schwartz: Which, you know, when I, uh, uh, for the project I applied for, for my license, and I'd had a breakup recently, I had to call my ex and have that conversation. Right? 

[00:10:13] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:10:13] Noah Schwartz: It, it, it, it's, it's, uh, you know, and, and we parted on very good terms. We- Sure ... we were lucky, uh, but it's still an uncomfortable conversation to have.

And I think when, when people outside of the, the gun community or who aren't familiar with it hear that, they say, "Wow, this is, like, this is something serious." So a lot of the folks I spoke to said, "We've sacrificed these huge elements of our personal privacy," which, you know, uh, apparently are, are sometimes subject to cyberatta- cyber hack, right, as we've learned recently.

Um- 

[00:10:38] Travis Bader: Yeah, and have been. They have been hacked, and they've... There's a lot of the information has been, been leaked, which has come out. 

[00:10:45] Noah Schwartz: Which is really scary and, you know, problematic when you think about it. 

[00:10:47] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:48] Noah Schwartz: Um, yeah, so, so people have made that sacrifice, and, and they kind of just want it to be treated fairly by the government, right?

They've been vetted. You go through a daily background check with the Canadian Police Information System. Um, and, and after that, I think people [00:11:00] just wanna be say, you know, "We follow the rules. We've gone through this. We just kinda wanna be left alone to, to do our thing," right? In, in a way that I think i- in the United States, even the idea of something like safe storage laws is a non-starter- Hmm

in a, in a lot of places, or the idea of licensing and vetting, people are very, very resistant to that. Where I think as Canadian, the Canadian gun community broadly accepts that, you know, we're willing to make these sacrifices in the name of public safety, but after that, just kinda let us do our thing.

[00:11:27] Travis Bader: Hmm. So what does being treated fairly look like? Yeah. Because that'll differ. If you talk to a gun person, they're gonna say, "Look, I've done my courses. I'm background-checked. I'm daily-checked. You talked to my ex. You talked to everybody around me. You got doctor's notes," whatever it might be depending on the time when they put their application through, and now you can go back the entire person's lifetime for any history of instability or violent sort of tendencies in nature.

Um, they're gonna say, "I've done it. I'm good. Leave me alone," whereas I would think that somebody who's, uh, [00:12:00] afraid of firearms or anti-firearms or has an agenda to the contrary, uh, would have a very different perspective on what's fair. Yeah. So, so what's fair, and how do you keep yourself objective in this when you're, when you're looking at this?

Because I can personally look at it and say, I try my damnedest to be objective as to what could be fair, but the... I can't overcome some of my just biases, which I con- I consider logic. 

[00:12:25] Noah Schwartz: No, exactly. I mean, I, I think being treated fairly is, i- is, you know- I've owned and used something for m- my entire adult life.

I've, I've always acted responsibly. Just let me keep my stuff. 

[00:12:36] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:12:37] Noah Schwartz: That's what I heard from people. Um, and, and we definitely know what being treated unfairly looks like, which I think is a lot of the legislative changes that have been made, uh, in the past decade, things like the ban on what the governments label the assault-style weapons, like the handgun freeze.

Um, I was, you know, just on, on, uh, r/CanadaGuns today, on Reddit, and, and there was someone talking about how their, their father had, uh, a [00:13:00] pistol that he, you know, was his service pistol, a revolver, when he was a police officer. He kept it, was able to keep it in his civilian life. Um, and it's hugely meaningful for, for him.

[00:13:08] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:13:09] Noah Schwartz: It's part of his, you know, it, it... A big part of his career that he carried it, and he wants to pass it down to his son, and he can't do that even though his son has the same license, has gone through the same process, is legally able to own handguns. He's not allowed to inherit that firearm because of the handgun freeze.

That to me is unfair. 

[00:13:26] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:13:26] Noah Schwartz: So I think it's easier sometimes to see, you know, what's unfair than, than what's fair, and, and I feel- I agree. 

[00:13:30] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:13:31] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. A lot of people are, are, have raised red flags with me when we spoke about how they're being treated right now by, by the government. 

[00:13:37] Travis Bader: So talk about sitting at the cool kids club in school.

What's this like in university? Like, you've gotta be a social pariah by speaking out about this kind of thing because it puts you in a completely opposite camp to what, to what I would think most universities' and higher education's, uh, political leanings would be. 

[00:13:55] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. I... It, it's tricky. I, I think it, it...

Once again, it's one of the situations where you have to have face-to-face [00:14:00] conversations with people. 'Cause when I explain my research, when I lay it out, um, you know, and, and, and publish it in a book, um, people have been broadly accepting of it, I think. And especially, maybe I'm at a bit of a special place.

Uh, the University of the Fraser Valley, it's a small university. It's kind of on the cusp between, you know, urban Vancouver and, and the rural Fraser Valley into the interior of British Columbia. We get students from a variety of backgrounds. Um, I teach a course on guns and politics. Uh, and we, you know, I get students, I have them do a reflection at the beginning.

They tell me, uh, their position on guns and why, what factors in their life they think led them to developing that position. 

[00:14:36] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:14:36] Noah Schwartz: And I'll get students who say, you know, um, "I don't think anyone should be able to own guns at all." And I get students who say, you know, "I think, uh, we shouldn't even need a license to own guns."

We get a, a broad spectrum of opinions. 

[00:14:48] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:14:49] Noah Schwartz: Um, and, and that makes it easier 'cause I, I think most people, when you, when you sit down and you explain the way the laws work, um, and have a reasonable conversation, they say, "Oh, yeah, you know, I don't see a [00:15:00] problem with that. Like, you know, if someone's willing to go through that vetting process to store their firearms safely, they should be allowed to own them."

I think the problem is that the, the debate often happens on this level of hyperbole and, and especially this... We see everything through an American lens because so, so many people in Canada follow American news much more closely than Canadian news that- It's hard to have those long-form conversations with people and, and kinda talk them down from their, their preconceived position.

[00:15:27] Travis Bader: Well, what's, what's the end goal of that course? Is it just for the students to develop epistemic discretion and be able to come up with their own decision based on something that is, you can weigh and measure, or is there, is there something else to that that I might not be seeing? 

[00:15:42] Noah Schwartz: Yeah, no, the goal of the course is to have students explore and learn political science concepts, looking at a really interesting issue that excites them.

Ah. But for me, part of the, the goal of it as well is to really have them observe and examine this issue in a way that they might not have before. And what I find... So I have a reflection at the end of the class as well, right? And, and- Interesting ... [00:16:00] they all go into it with really extreme opinions. Mm-hmm.

And by the end they're like, "Oh yeah, you know, I, I can see why people would wanna..." Even, like, the anti-gun students will say, "Oh, I can see why someone, a hunter or a sport shooter or a collector, might wanna own firearms, and, and you know, broadly they should be allowed to do that." Or, or students who might have been on the other end of, of the extreme will say, "Okay, I can see that, you know, some things like licensing are actually kinda reasonable as long as they're carried out in a transparent way a- and they're done right.

Um, and, and I think I'm accepting of that." So I like that. I like that everyone kinda comes and coalesces ar- around, around the middle ground by the end of the course. I think it shows that they've thought about the issue more critically. 

[00:16:36] Travis Bader: I think, I think you're hitting the nail on the head when you say you have to talk to somebody face to face if you wanna have these more difficult discussions, because that doesn't give a person a place to run if they just wanna snipe, throw jabs and run away and hope other people will do the same.

But when you sit down face to face... I think Mike Tyson had a quote about that, didn't he? Like, um, [00:17:00] more people would, uh... I think people would be a lot more polite if they knew that they'd be punched in the face if they didn't, uh- Right ... for what they say. Yeah. Like, something along those lines. But, uh, when you're sitting down face to face, there's accountability for your words and for your actions, and I think people consider what they're gonna say perhaps a little more carefully, and they consider the person that they're dealing with, 'cause now you're a human.

You're not just some text on the screen. How, how would you suggest people of the... Well, let's, let's start just with the, the gun community, 'cause that's my background. That's kinda what I know. People in the gun community. "From my cold, dead hands. You ain't getting them." Right? Whatever it might be that a position that an extreme person on, in the gun community might take, what would be an approach that they can take to articulating their thoughts and the, um, the points in a way if they're talking to somebody- Who's ve- m- ly against firearms 

[00:17:54] Noah Schwartz: Yeah.

I, I think the biggest thing is always telling stories. Stories are a part of our [00:18:00] DNA, they're a part of who we are, they're part of how we evolved, uh, as, as beings to, you know, we're s- we're social animals. We, we emerge telling stories to one another. Mm. That's how we've become, you know, the apex hunters, is because you can go, you can tell stories of how you hunted in the past, and other people can learn with that, from that, without having to, you know, put themselves in danger and learn that trial and error.

[00:18:19] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:18:20] Noah Schwartz: So there's an evolutionary component to the importance of storytelling. But it also, it, it humanizes things. Like, I, I think people outside of the gun community fundamentally don't understand what guns are used for. I think they think of them as, you know, there, there's all these kind of negative stereotypes about people overcompensating or, you know, "I just want to own a gun to look tough."

And when you talk to people, they say, "No, you know, what this gun actually means to me is I got it from my grandfather." 

[00:18:44] Travis Bader: Mm. "

[00:18:44] Noah Schwartz: And it reminds me of going whitetail hunting in the woods with him," or, "I, you know, got this for skeet and trap shooting, and it reminds me of spending time with my skeet and trap club and making friends there."

So I think telling those stories and, and, and explaining why [00:19:00] firearms are important to you, because that's something that might seem obvious to you. Mm. But to someone outside the gun world, it seems completely foreign. I think the other thing that, um, would help the community, uh, especially online, is I think toning down some of that rhetoric.

Uh, because I think people, the community's frustrated. I feel that. That came out in so many of the conversations I had with people, where I literally had people break down crying with me over Zoom, talking about how they're gonna lose their collections, these firearms that, you know, belong to their uncle, their father, that are hugely meaningful for them.

So I, I feel that frustration on a really visceral level. 

[00:19:35] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:19:35] Noah Schwartz: But when, I think when people express themselves online in a way that's very, uh, you know, aggressive or intimidating or using that from my cold dead hand, hands rhetoric- Mm ... it kind of undermines the legitimacy of the community, and it, it's really easy for people on the other side to use that, to take that screenshot and say, "Look, look at these crazy gun nuts, you know, waving their re- their rifles around like this."

Um, so I think turning down the tenure, focusing on, on [00:20:00] storytelling, and then also explaining, you know, just explaining the way the laws work in Canada, the process to people. W- there's actual research that was done by, uh, Dr. Gary Mauser a- and his colleagues showing that the overwhelming majority of Canadians know absolutely nothing about our gun laws.

[00:20:14] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:20:14] Noah Schwartz: They might be vaguely aware that Canada has something called, you know, gun control and the United States- ... doesn't have gun control, both of which are oversimplifications, of course. 

[00:20:22] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:23] Noah Schwartz: Um, but they don't know any of the details of that. And, and when you tell them even that licensing story, a lot of people go, "Oh, wow.

I didn't realize it was that hard to get a gun in Canada. I didn't realize that p- that's what people have to go through. You must be, you must be serious about this. This isn't kind of something frivolous." 

[00:20:40] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:20:40] Noah Schwartz: So I, I f- I find that useful just to build bridges, bring down the tenor of the debate, and, and really show people why these are meaningful- tools to you, not just, you know, a, a, a brand of, you know, something to make you look tough, right?

[00:20:54] Travis Bader: Make you look tough, yes. And Gary, he's done a lot of good work. He's been on the podcast as well. 

[00:20:59] Noah Schwartz: Oh, 

[00:20:59] Travis Bader: nice. Yeah. Known, known him [00:21:00] since I've been just a little kid going to the gun shows, but, uh, and, and he's got some interesting perspectives on things too, um, and things that I haven't thought of before that, um, that applied to how, uh, firearms laws were created initially in Canada and in sort of the, um, the racism behind that.

The, uh, I guess it was an anti-Irish sentiment is, uh, something that he was talking about, and, um, maybe not so much racism, but more, um, uh, elitism. Because it was the, uh, the new Irish immigrants that had less money, and they thought, "Well, if we don't want these, we don't want these guys having guns now too."

And so, like, there's all these different little aspects to th- the human nature and why we create these laws and, and move forward with them, which I find kind of interesting. And, you know, when, when we look at the last question about how do we have this conversation with somebody who's against it, and I would say I would apply the same thing for somebody who's [00:22:00] against firearms to somebody who's pro-firearms.

I, I tend to ask questions, and I try to... I do my damnedest to try and understand, and then I will ask them questions, like you say, about license. "Oh, you said that anybody can own a gun, and they can run around with the thing in their car and do whatever. Did you realize that we have a system in place that blah, blah, blah, and we go through this?"

I, I think a problem that, uh, I've heard iterated by gun owners often is that, um, gun owners try to lead with logic. "Look at the numbers. Look at the percentages. Look at this," right? And, uh, an anti-gunner would lead with emotion. Mm. "If it could just save one life," and, like, "What if it was your child?" And, um, and it's hard to have a logical debate at emotional level or an emotional debate at a logical level.

Yeah. And that's, I think, where a big part of the disconnect comes. So maybe through storytelling, we can take some logic and interject emotion in a way that the other person can feel. [00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. There's... The tricky part about that gets in the way of, of good political discourse sometimes, unfortunately, is, uh, human nature and the way our brains work, right?

[00:23:08] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:23:08] Noah Schwartz: We, we're using, uh... I heard someone say, you know, we- we're using Paleolithic hardware to deal with Space Age problems, right? Yep. Like, our, our brains haven't changed that much since we were, were running around as, as hunter-gatherers. Um, a- and that makes it tricky. 'Cause when you do face someone with facts and logic, right?

We know that people don't just absorb facts and logic and readjust their worldview. Mm. It's really cognitively taxing. Like, it's really mentally straining to change the way that you look at the world on things that are deeply ingrained for you. And so people's brains will do a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid doing that.

Right? Um, so when you trigger, it's called defensive bias. When you trigger someone's defensive bias by presenting them with a fact that they're not familiar with, that, that, that, you know, contradicts their worldview, they get, um, angry and upset, and it can actually often make people double down- Mm-hmm ... on their opinions rather than change their mind.

And I find [00:24:00] storytelling, stories are sort of Trojan horses that are able to kind of sneak facts a- and logic into a debate in a way that people find less threatening, right? That are, are humanizing. 

[00:24:09] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:24:09] Noah Schwartz: Um, that, that a- allow you to really present those facts, but not in a way that's going to immediately pose a fundamental threat to someone's worldview and might actually get them to think about it more deeply.

And yeah, this is where gun control is tricky because the, um, the argument for control always has really powerful stories on its side. Because it just takes... You can have all of the statistics in a wor- in the world that show that, you know, in Canada your chances of being killed in a mass shooting are 1/10 of one in a million.

[00:24:40] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:40] Noah Schwartz: 0.11 out of a million. 

[00:24:42] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:24:42] Noah Schwartz: Right? Which is, like, less than your chances of being struck by lightning. 

[00:24:46] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:24:46] Noah Schwartz: Um, but one story of a really tragic, horrific mass shooting is enough to sort of override that and say, "Okay, no, I'm scared now. I feel threatened, so we have to do something." Even if it's something [00:25:00] that, you know, the evidence shows isn't gonna work, um, I don't pay a price for that because I, you know, it- the person isn't, isn't impacted by the laws that are passed.

They don't, they don't understand that, that, you know, these laws are, are a form of political power, the, the execution of political power, right? Um, a- and so it's very easy to support that just because you've heard this, this scary story. 

[00:25:19] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:19] Noah Schwartz: And so I, I think it's, it's why it's so important and, and why I really try hard in the book to tell the stories of Canada's communities of gun owners, because that's the story that we don't hear.

It's a longer story to tell. It's not as exciting, right? It, it's not as dramatic. Um, it, it doesn't meet the qualities of newsworthiness, right? If it bleeds, it leads. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's the everyday reality of gun ownership in Canada in 99.99999% of cases. 

[00:25:46] Travis Bader: So who's gonna care enough to read this? Like, if, if, if I've based my own persona and my personality on a certain viewpoint and somebody attacking that or w- stating things out of fact that I feel are attacking that [00:26:00] is gonna be an existential threat to my own existence, my own reality, why would I pick up your book?

[00:26:06] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. I th- I think because- Once again, it, it explores the topic in a way that's not saber-rattling. It's not, uh, necessarily... I mean, the- Targeted doesn't deal specifically with those kind of legislative questions. 

[00:26:20] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:26:21] Noah Schwartz: It's really about examining, it's telling the story of the community of gun owners, how they practice advocacy, how the community's formed.

Um, and, and I think it, it... So it explains the legislation as it stands in Canada, I think, in a way that might not necessarily threaten someone's defensive bias in that way. You're just reading stories about people, um, who are in the gun community, and at the end of it, hopefully you have a more complete and human picture o- of what that looks like.

[00:26:48] Travis Bader: How do we practice advocacy in Canada, particularly in the firearms realm, and what are we getting right, and what are we getting wrong? 

[00:26:56] Noah Schwartz: That's a great question. Yeah, so there's, uh, the interesting thing about the [00:27:00] community of gun owners in Canada and the political advocacy around that, um, is, is the different factions, I would say.

Right? You have the more o- the older and more established groups, uh, like the BC Wildlife Federation, like the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, who are the conservation groups. And, and they came out of this unlikely marriage between sportsmen and conservationists in the late 19th century, throughout the 20th century, um, that led to the development of Canada's wildlife management framework, the way that we preserve species in Canada.

[00:27:30] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:27:30] Noah Schwartz: Right? The end of the 19th century, overhunting has led to huge crises across North America. We have the disappearance of the wild bison. You have turkey, the turkey population collapsing. You have white-tailed deer and, and, um, other species disappearing, and this, hunters and sportsmen get together with conservationists, and they create this framework for managing wildlife in Canada.

And that gets into, you know, the, how we legislate hunting with tags and licenses, managing wild species. Um, I- I'm sure I don't have to tell this to your [00:28:00] audience. Everyone's probably pretty familiar with it, but it, it leads to the resurgence of all of these species, the protection of vast wild spaces in Canada and the United States.

Um, and it gives these groups a, a ton of legitimacy, uh, because suddenly hunters aren't just people that are off having fun in the woods. They're integral to the way that we preserve wildlife and wild spaces in Canada. 

[00:28:22] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:28:23] Noah Schwartz: Um, a- and they do something really powerful, which is harnessing self-interest to create good public policy goals, right?

Hunters, a lot of hunters that I've met care deeply about conservation and go above and beyond, but even if, if you're a hunter who doesn't, you know, doesn't care at all- About conservation, you're still buying tags. 

[00:28:41] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:28:41] Noah Schwartz: You're still paying taxes on equipment that are funding conservation. Uh, right in the United States, they have the Pittman-Robertson Act, so any, um, any firearms, ammunition, outdoor equipment, there's a tax on that that goes towards funding conservation.

[00:28:53] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:28:54] Noah Schwartz: So these harness the self-interest of people in the outdoors community to protect wildlife. I think it's one of the most [00:29:00] beautiful, you know, examples of public policy. Mm. And I, I point to it whenever I can. Um, a- and the other side of the gun community in Canada is more advocating for collectors, for sport shooters.

They've emerged more recently out of the political battles of the 1970s, although the groups have kind of changed over the years. Um, we have the more recent iteration, right, the National Firearms Association, the NFA, the CCFR, the Canadian Coalition for Firearms Rights, um, and the, the CSSA. Mm-hmm. Um, and these folks, you know, they, they practice a little bit of grassroots li- uh, a- a- advocacy, right?

Um, mobilizing the community for letter-writing campaigns, talking to their members of parliament, um, which is really useful. Um, and then they practice a bit of sort of that, that lobbying in Ottawa, talking to decision-makers. Um, a lot of people... Sorry, when you hear lobbying, it sounds like a bad word, right?

'Cause we're, we're- It's not, but yes. Exactly. Lobbying, I, as I tell my students in my advocacy groups class, lobbying literally just means talking to politicians. 

[00:29:53] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:29:54] Noah Schwartz: If you go talk to your MP, you are lobbying. Mm. You might not be a paid lobbyist, but you're engaging in lobbying, right? [00:30:00] Um, which is, you know, something that these groups do.

Because policymakers, um, as I also tell my students, being a member of parliament is one of the few jobs in the world that you don't actually have to be qualified for. You just have to convince enough people that you are. And, and- That's right ... a lot of folks are put in cabinet positions for reasons other than their expertise on the issue, shall we say?

Sure. Right? Their visibility, they're a member of a certain group that the government wants to, to be seen associating with, things like that. 

[00:30:24] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:24] Noah Schwartz: Um, and so lobbyists serve a super important function, which is educating policymakers about things that they might not know a lot about. Um, so this is w- this is sort of what advocacy looks like in Canada.

Um, where I think that advocacy could go next is finding a way to create another marriage, right? And I, I, I think the moment that we're seeing right now, the need that I think we see is for Canada to get a handle on its national defense- Mm ... in a way that we haven't worried about in the past, right? The world is a more dangerous place.

We've realized with the changes [00:31:00] down south that we can't necessarily count on the Americans, um, for, for our defense in the way that we used to, right? We have threats in the Arctic from, from Russia, from, um, from other hostile nations. Uh, a- and we really have to start taking responsibility for our own defense and, and thinking that through.

We see the government doing that sort of i- in, with regards to increasing funding for the military, which is great. It's something that we've been needing to do for a long time. 

[00:31:23] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:24] Noah Schwartz: But what we haven't thought through and, a- and what we could, I think we could really get back to, is that civilian-military connection.

[00:31:31] Travis Bader: Interesting. 

[00:31:32] Noah Schwartz: So the first sport in Canada to receive federal funding- Was not ice hockey 

[00:31:38] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm 

[00:31:39] Noah Schwartz: It was rifle shooting 

[00:31:40] Travis Bader: That's right 

[00:31:41] Noah Schwartz: Because governments at the time understood that having a population, um, that was responsibly a- and, and reliably trained to use, uh, firearms, and having that population be regulated obviously- Mm

um, could be a useful tool for national defense, right? Changes in the way that warfare was fought [00:32:00] changed that policy. I think government started to get away from the idea that individual marksmen mattered on the battlefield in an age of artillery and planes and tanks. Um, but I think what we're seeing now, a- and i- in places like, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine and stuff like that, is that, no, individual soldiers on the battlefield matter, and their, their ability, their marksmanship is important.

And so I think getting back to a model, if we can, if we can create another marriage between sport shooters and national defense in Canada, I think that can move the community a long way, right? 

[00:32:32] Travis Bader: That's interesting. I mean, there's a lot to be said for the perception of power over the reality of power. I mean, if s- that was the famous saying back in the day, the, um, what was it?

I think it was Japan didn't wanna come into, uh, the US because they would have marksmen everywhere. Everyone had a gun, and it was, uh... that was the, the part that instilled fear in, uh, in coming over, is how armed of a populace that they [00:33:00] have. And Canada's always had a reputation for marksmen, for robustness.

We got that lumberjack, the cold weather, um, being able to hit things at a long distance. Uh, th- there's this, this idea that goes along with Canada. Whether that's a reality or not, there is that perception of it. 

[00:33:18] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:33:18] Travis Bader: And I think... So I'm gonna completely step outside my realm. I'm not a political scientist, but, you know, just somebody looking at it from the outside.

Like, I look at the need for rough-and-tumble people to come in and help create a country, and to, um, be able to f- defend the weak and those who are defenseless, and be able to, um, uh, stand up to foreign forces. And, like, there's a need for that when you're creating a country. Once a country starts getting established and they think, "Okay, we're going.

Th- think things are pretty good here. I mean, there's no wars going on." All of a sudden, [00:34:00] these rough-and-tumble people, and we can call these people firearms owners or whatever it might be, these armed people that can portray a perception of competency and ability, w- they kinda feel a little threatening right now, right?

I mean, we've got... we've put more and more rules in place, so people have to follow the rules, and we have this subset of society that existed because they could push those rules in a way that, um, that most others wouldn't. Now that feels a little bit threatening to us. What do we do? Do we just, um- Let's get rid of them because that's a, that's a threat to our ability to govern if we have this subset that doesn't need us.

You know, they say if you have a problem, call up the police. Well, if they don't need the police, well, why are they calling them, right? Um, if they can grow their own food, if they can take care of their own injuries or whatever it might be, there's less of a reliance on a system that starts being put into place, and that, I think, [00:35:00] looks like a bit of a threat to the system, which may just be why so much of our policy seems aesthetically driven.

Like, if I look at, um, what's being banned and what isn't. Like, the, the famous example of the Mossberg Plinkster, a little .22 rifle. I think it was a 702. Perfectly legal, but if you put a stock around this, a clam shell, and call it the 715T, holy crow, that thing's prohibited. We've got to get rid of that thing because aesthetically, maybe it looks like it imbues the individual with more competence.

Mm. Um, I, I, and again, might be stepping outside my re- uh, realm there a little bit, but, uh, I see that played on both sides. I see it from my position as a government looking like a citizens claiming capability that the state hasn't granted them. 

[00:35:50] Noah Schwartz: Mm. 

[00:35:50] Travis Bader: And I see the individual looking at it perhaps in an aesthetic as I haven't surrendered my capacity as a citizen.

[00:35:59] Noah Schwartz: Mm. 

[00:35:59] Travis Bader: [00:36:00] Um, what are your thoughts on that? Did I completely step outside my realm on that one? 

[00:36:04] Noah Schwartz: No. No, that... I think that's a really profound thought. I, I, I think the aesthetics c- thing also comes down to, once again, that, that identity component and how Canadians think about themselves. 

[00:36:14] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:36:15] Noah Schwartz: Um, because, uh, Canadian identity, um, has always, I think, been constructed in opposition to American identity, right?

We have probably more in common with Americans than we often like to think about, right? Sure. We share the world's largest undefended border. We consume probably 99% of what most people consume, unless you're an avid, uh, you know, CBC Gem watcher. I- i- is American content, right? Yeah. So, uh, we have that kind of little brother syndrome, feeling, uh, uh, w- wanting to assert our identity in, in opposition to what it means to be American.

[00:36:45] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:36:46] Noah Schwartz: And I think for a lot of the Canadian public, the way that Canadian identity was constructed in the '60s and '70s with the CBC, with the National Film Board, with these big government institutions that were putting out Canadian content partially to push back on Quebec [00:37:00] separatism- 

[00:37:00] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[00:37:00] Noah Schwartz: but also to push back o- on these sort of en- what they saw as the encroachment of American culture in Canada.

They created this image of Canada and the Canadian that is r- antithetical, I think, to gun ownership. It's urban. It's Eastern. You know, a- as it engages with the outdoors, it does so in kind of like a, a Laurentian sort of way- Mm ... where you're, you know, you're in a canoe wearing plaid, like- Sure. Sure ... like the prime minister, right?

[00:37:23] Travis Bader: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:37:24] Noah Schwartz: That, that's how we engage with the outdoors. We don't, you know... We, we're gonna ignore that entire history of hunting and trapping and exploring in Canada. 

[00:37:30] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:37:31] Noah Schwartz: Um, we're gonna ignore the legacy of- Canadian soldiers who struck fear into the hearts of Germans in World War I. 

[00:37:36] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:37] Noah Schwartz: You know, Canadian outdoorsmen who patrolled the Pacific coast during World War II, uh, protecting against, uh, you know, a Japanese, potential Japanese invasion.

We're gonna write these things out of history and kind of focus on this way. Um, a- and I think this is where changing that story, changing how we think about ourselves as Canadians, um, i- in a way that allows us to flex our muscles a bit more, I think meets the [00:38:00] demands of the moment. Mm-hmm. Once again, that changing threat environment that we're facing.

We- there's nations, you know, all over the world. Germany is waking up and rearmament- rearming and potentially bringing back conscription. All over Europe, Finland is building gun ranges and encouraging their citizens to, to train to learn rifle shooting, 'cause they remember the Winter War. 

[00:38:17] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:17] Noah Schwartz: The last time the Russians came across the border, and they remember that it was, you know, folks on cross-country skis in the backcountry, um, sniping at Russians that, that was able to, to turn the tide of that war, right?

So I, I, I think we have to get back to it. We have to change the way that we think about what it means to be Canadian, to recognize that firearms have played a role in our history, right? Explorers, um, you know, people trading with, with indigenous folks. Um, indigenous peoples in Canada have used firearms to do good and bad things- 

[00:38:47] Travis Bader: Sure

[00:38:48] Noah Schwartz: throughout, throughout our past. 

[00:38:49] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:38:49] Noah Schwartz: Right? That's a part of our, our, our national story, too. Um, a- and we shouldn't be afraid to protect what we have, e- especially in the North. Um, uh, there's a lot of [00:39:00] countries that I, I think, especially as, um, the climate continues to change and we see more shipping routes, uh, up north and more access to those critical minerals, um, there's a lot of countries that are, are gonna want what we have, and if we're not prepared, uh, to protect the North, um, Canada, the map of Canada could look very different in 20, 30 years than it does now.

[00:39:20] Travis Bader: Well, Finland, the example you put there, I was in Finland last year, and it was a common point of conversation. Like, it's on the tip of their tongues talking about the, the fact that, you know, our- we have neighbors that we gotta make sure that we, um, uh, are- we keep ourselves prepared for. 

[00:39:38] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:39:39] Travis Bader: Um, Canada doesn't have that quite as recent of a, uh, um, a memory of it, and it definitely seems to have suppressed any, any past memories.

How do we tell those stories as we move forward? How do we tell that story in a way... 'Cause I can tell the story, and I can preach to the choir, and I can talk inside an m- an echo chamber. I mean, it's a reason why I started the Silvercore [00:40:00] Podcast, is to try and talk about issues to a wider demographic. I will- I'll understand the fact that I'm- Biased.

We all are. We all have our backgrounds. I try my best to be open, and I try my best to be able to, uh, introduce people into the world of, that I know, uh, through ancillary ways. It's not always gonna be the, the gun manufacturer that I'm talking with. Sometimes it's gonna be the person who just likes to hike or ski or be outside, 'cause there, there is, there's a bleed over between all of this, and it's, uh, personal agency and resilience and capability while you're in a remote area.

And firearms play a role, but they've... I try my best to keep it as a, not the talking point, right? It's not about the gun. The gun just happens to be a piece of the puzzle that's in there. So am I doing an okay job in how we tell the story, or how should we as, uh, Canadians tell this story so that the Laurentian r- elite say, "All right.

Well, it's not my story, but I [00:41:00] get it." 

[00:41:00] Noah Schwartz: Right? Right. Yeah, we have, we have to be careful there. I, I, I come from the Laurentian elite. So I always I always i- introduce myself like that as a, as a, you know- ... a central Canadian out west, right? Sure. Yeah, I 

[00:41:11] Travis Bader: hear 

[00:41:11] Noah Schwartz: you. Um, no. I, I, I think building those institutions, right, what you've done building this co- podcast and building Silvercore, what Dan Fritter has done building Caliber Magazine.

Mm. Like, I think the most powerful thing that you can do to make change is build something. 

[00:41:27] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:41:27] Noah Schwartz: Right? And, and build something that goes beyond you and reaches a wide audience. One thing that I, I think if, if the community of gun owners got together and, and put the money together, um, and built a Canadian firearms museum- Mm

to preserve and tell that story- I think that would go wonders. You, you put it somewhere in the Quebec-Windsor corridor, so you have, you know, 80% of Canada living in, in that area. You have the highway that k- sort of connects those communities. Um, you get a lot of visitors, right? There are firearms museums in the, in the US that get hundreds of thousands of visitors- [00:42:00] Yeah

every year, and people who aren't necessarily gun people. They just sort of saw the sign on the highway and said, "Hey, I have a kid who plays Call of Duty. Maybe that'll kind of get him off his phone for- 

[00:42:07] Travis Bader: Yeah ... 

[00:42:08] Noah Schwartz: for a couple of minutes," right? 

[00:42:09] Travis Bader: And they're cool, those museums. 

[00:42:10] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:42:10] Travis Bader: I- The Springfield Armory, have you ever checked that one out?

[00:42:12] Noah Schwartz: Oh, no, no. Awesome. I'll have to add it to my list. 

[00:42:14] Travis Bader: Yeah, I mean, there's- Yeah ... there are a whole history aspect to all of it, and then there's a machining aspect, and then there's- Yeah ... st- industrialization and community aspect, and yeah, the firearms are a big part of what they're telling in there, but there's, there's a bigger story being told.

[00:42:27] Noah Schwartz: And, and they open up stories, and they open up histories, right? Mm. Like, uh, so much of my, my interest outside of academia, you know, in, in looking at firearms is that connection to history. 

[00:42:37] Travis Bader: Mm. '

[00:42:37] Noah Schwartz: Cause you, you, you know, um... And, and one thing that's interesting reading Caliber magazine, I remember reading one about the Winchester rifle and its connection to the Pacific Coast Military Rangers- Mm

here in BC, right? 'Cause they weren't gonna issue them with, you know, Lee-Enfields that they were gonna send to the battlefield. These guys are hanging around in the bush, keeping an eye out for, for Japanese boats and submarines or planes or- Mm ... for X balloons, one of the big things. Yeah. Right? Those musi- [00:43:00] munition balloons that they'd- That's right

send over. Um, the, you know, they're gonna go out, and they're gonna have a lever action 'cause it's, it's handy in the woods, and, and they can use it to hunt, but also, you know, it gives them some capability if, if they end up, uh, in, in a violent exchange. So guns as windows to history is something that I think, um, helps us to tell those stories- Sure

and once again sort of highlights the significance of firearms to people who have no idea about them, have never touched one before, and you say, like, "No, look at this connection to history. Look at what this, this object tells us about Canada's past." 

[00:43:34] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:43:34] Noah Schwartz: Um, I, I, I think having a, an, a place where we can tell those stories would be hugely impactful and hugely powerful.

[00:43:41] Travis Bader: You know, I've always felt that, um, that both sides, the anti-gunners, the pro-gunners, have made the object too much the object of their attention. Mm. They've made the gun the point that they talk about. Gun is good. Gun is bad. Or as Shakespeare said- Yeah ... it's neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.[00:44:00] 

[00:44:00] Noah Schwartz: Mm. 

[00:44:00] Travis Bader: The gun in the hands of someone who's willing to do ill intent, bad, right? That scares me. Yeah. Not the gun, the person with the gun. That's scary. 

[00:44:09] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:44:09] Travis Bader: Um, but, like, telling the story about the gun and the history of the gun, I, I, I can see that as an important piece, but there's such a, a much bigger story that's being told every single day through media, through movies, and, and they will glorify the gun, and they make the gun, well- This person was down and out, but now they got a gun, and now they're the hero of the...

They can kill the bad guys, they can do... And it's all 'cause of this gun, right? 

[00:44:40] Noah Schwartz: Right. Yeah. 

[00:44:41] Travis Bader: Especially like '80s-type, uh, movies that- Yeah. There's Rambo. I mean, he's just one man, but he'll take down armies because look at all the guns he's got and the bandolier. Um, I, I, I can see the importance of having the gun and, and trying to, uh, tell that story, but there's a [00:45:00] big part of me that thinks that the story shouldn't even be about the gun.

Like, it really shouldn't. Somebody goes in and they do damage. So what is, in the last 100 years, I will ask people this, and a listener might correct me on this one, but from my research anyways, if we look at the four largest by death count intentional, uh, taking of human life in the last 100 years, do we have an idea of what they are in Canada?

[00:45:26] Noah Schwartz: I'm guessing automobiles are, are- 

[00:45:28] Travis Bader: No ... gonna 

[00:45:29] Noah Schwartz: be 

[00:45:29] Travis Bader: one of 

[00:45:29] Noah Schwartz: them. Well, 

[00:45:30] Travis Bader: uh, so the intentional, so somebody ramming into p- somebody with au- an automobile- 

[00:45:34] Noah Schwartz: Yeah ... 

[00:45:35] Travis Bader: taking them out, that would be number four. Right. So I think that was 11 people in Toronto. 

[00:45:39] Noah Schwartz: Right. 

[00:45:39] Travis Bader: Uh- 

[00:45:40] Noah Schwartz: Well, and more recently in Vancouver with the, the Lapu Lapu- 

[00:45:43] Travis Bader: That's 

[00:45:43] Noah Schwartz: right

Festival attack. 

[00:45:44] Travis Bader: It was... How many do you... How many was on that one? 

[00:45:46] Noah Schwartz: I, I don't remember. It was, it was quite significant. Uh- 

[00:45:48] Travis Bader: Yeah, it was significant. And there's... But you don't hear about it all the time. We don't hear, "Let's make automobile regulations," and, um, because the object of what's being used. Number one, uh, so number, [00:46:00] uh, three is gonna be Polytechnique.

That was, what? Mm. 14 people, was it, at Polytechnique that were murdered by, um- 

[00:46:08] Noah Schwartz: Yeah ... 

[00:46:08] Travis Bader: Gabriel Gaveil, Marc Lépine. Uh, Portapique, number two, and most people will call that one number one. Uh, that was, I think, 22 people that, that, uh, that Arsal went and murdered. Mm-hmm. And number one was the Bluebird Cafe. You remember the Bluebird Cafe?

[00:46:25] Noah Schwartz: No. 

[00:46:26] Travis Bader: No, because people never talk about the Bluebird Cafe. 

[00:46:29] Noah Schwartz: Mm. 

[00:46:29] Travis Bader: But some guys got themselves drunk at this cafe. What, I don't... I guess they were serving alcohol there too. I think there was three of them. They got kicked out. They got pissed. They go over to the, um, gas station- Mm ... fill up a can of petrol, throw it down the stairs.

How many people there? I think it was 37 that they killed. And yeah, there was... What, what did they do? The government turned around and says, "Okay, we need fire exits. They have to be able to push to get out. We're gonna have to have building inspections." They looked at pieces to put in and they, and enacted some change [00:47:00] there, but nobody goes on about, oh, look at this petrol, uh, look at this gas massacre, which could happen, which is really easy.

It's really easy to... Everyone's got vehicles- 

[00:47:10] Noah Schwartz: Yeah ... 

[00:47:11] Travis Bader: to steal a vehicle, to use somebody else's vehicle, to rent a vehicle and cause mass damage. But that doesn't occupy people's attention. Yeah. The gun does, because the gun's got a mystique behind it which rightly or wrongly I think people have built up through media, through movies.

It's a p- it's a piece of power. From a political standpoint, I think they look at it as, um, twofold. Number one, it's a threat to the, uh, systems that we currently have in place if somebody has the ability to defend themselves or, or what if they hold us accountable and there's, like, an overthrow. So there's that side.

And I think the other side is, wow, we can use this popularized item out there as a point of division, and if we make that our, our piece that we're gonna push, we'll get rid of it, and the other side says, "No, we wanna keep [00:48:00] it." Aha, now the other side looks like the jerks out there that just want, you just wanna see carnage.

You're okay with people getting killed by guns. And I, and I think that's all because we've made the conversation about the object. 

[00:48:13] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. Well, a- and it's a numbers game, too, right? Okay. You know, if you're proposing regulations, increasing regulations on cars, right? Automobile deaths surpass firearm deaths in this country by an order of magnitude.

[00:48:23] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:48:24] Noah Schwartz: But everybody drives. 

[00:48:25] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:48:25] Noah Schwartz: You have to. Like, in Canada, it's... You, you, you can't... You know, I live in Abbotsford. I came, I drove here- ... to Delta, right? I- Right ... I, it would be logistically almost impossible for me to take public transit to get here. 

[00:48:35] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:48:35] Noah Schwartz: Right? This is a big country. We have wide open spaces, but there's only 2.4 million gun owners, so proposing regulation that only impacts 2.4 million people, there's a low cost for that if you're a politician, especially a politician, uh, on the, you know, in the center or, or on the left- Mm-hmm

who doesn't need those p- they don't think they need those people's votes, right? Um, so there, there's that aspect of it as well, but I, but I think that focus on the tool is interesting. I open the book [00:49:00] not talking about guns, but talking about alcohol. 

[00:49:02] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:49:03] Noah Schwartz: Because once again, alcohol is something that kills orders of magnitude more people in this country than guns, and even there's an intersection 'cause if you d- you look at, um, interviews they've done with inmates and th- and folks like that who have been incarcerated, they found that, you know, a, a significant number of them were on drugs or, or alcohol- Sure

at the time that they committed their offense. 

[00:49:21] Travis Bader: Yeah. Right? 

[00:49:22] Noah Schwartz: Just in Abbotsford the other day, across the street from where I live, um, there's a grocery store, and someone was, was struck. Uh, and, and I, I don't know if they were killed or if they were just in critical condition. Just in critical condition, I should say.

Just, yeah. But, you know, there... But you ne- you would never hear politicians considering further restrictions o- on, on alcohol consumption, right? Right. Even though it kills far more people, once again because the uproar would be huge. People would, people would get mad at, you know, everybody likes a, a, to rela- not everybody, but more, a, a larger number of people likes to relax with a beer on a Friday afternoon.

[00:49:54] Travis Bader: Sure, and there's a ton of money being made by the government through the taxes on alcohol. Yes. And there's, uh, yeah. 

[00:49:59] Noah Schwartz: [00:50:00] Exactly. So, so I, I, I think there's that, that component where we really have to focus on looking at the wider causes of crime and violence and, and not focusing specifically on, on the objects.

When people ask what I think we should do about the gun debate, I think it's, you know, regulate people, not guns. Mm. And, and that's what the Canadian system does really well, is licensing. You're, you're automatically sifting out people who- You know, are, are gonna be problematic and are gonna be more likely to use those guns.

Mm. We know, for example, that PAL holders are less likely to commit crimes than the general public. Sure. And that makes sense. They've been subjected to background checks, right? There is the sort of informal sniff test of the, the firearms courses where, you know, when if, if you've been through a firearms course or, or taught one, you know instructors are looking for people that, in that course, that like, "Ooh, I have a bad feeling about that person.

Maybe I'm not gonna... I, I, I'm not gonna recommend that they, they get their license," right? There are systems in place to, to keep bad actors out. 

[00:50:56] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:56] Noah Schwartz: Right? Um, it w- which I think is, is really the key and the core to Canada's [00:51:00] successful system. But when we start picking guns as, this gun's too scary, this gun, you know, um, looks like a nice wooden grandpa's hunting rifle.

Fine, that's okay. 

[00:51:09] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:51:10] Noah Schwartz: Um, we get into, into treacherous territory, I think, really quickly. 

[00:51:13] Travis Bader: So 2.4% of Cana- 2.4 million Canadians, that'd be about 6% of Canada, are firearms owners. So that makes- Mm ... a small demographic that are typically gonna be rural voters and not playing towards what, what, um, some politicians would really deem as statistically significant if they were to step on them a little bit- Mm-hmm

in order to win votes in another place. However, I'm wondering if there's a way for that, for what's happening to the 6% to be told in a story where a larger percentile will say, "Well, hold on a second. If they can, in 2020, say, by decree through order and council, take privately-owned property, what [00:52:00] does that mean for me going forward?"

You gave the example of vehicles. Everyone needs a vehicle or places are vast. Well, there's all this talk that we keep hearing about 15-minute cities or five-minute cities or whatever they are. And, you know, you'll own nothing, and you'll love it, or whatever, whatever the, the, the current trend that they're talking about.

But, um, but there is a push for if you were to take the idea to the furthest degree, I mean, we're gonna have driverless... We already have driverless vehicles. Mm. Uh, governments can say, "Our money should be better served for public transit, and we'll supply everything you need. You don't need a vehicle." Like, uh, at some point, uh, and if you're in a rural area, maybe you can get a special license to operate this vehicle and only certain types of vehicle in certain areas because think of the environment and the pollution it puts out.

Like, there's all this spin that can be put on it. Like, is there a way that the 6% can make their plight, uh, relatable to the [00:53:00] larger percentile? 

[00:53:01] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. I, I think part of that, yeah, it goes back to that storytelling element and, and then building those coalitions, right? Mm. In politics, you win by building coalitions, by making friends, right?

By building alliances with other groups. So I, I think- That advocacy a- a- and that trying to find a way to connect sport shooting to national defense I think is huge. 

[00:53:21] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:53:22] Noah Schwartz: Because I think i- if we get official recognition for sport shooting, if we build those alliances with the military, suddenly you go from, you know, being annoying to the government to being, uh, an important part of Canada's national defense picture- 

[00:53:34] Travis Bader: Mm

[00:53:34] Noah Schwartz: that the government is gonna be hesitant to, to step on. I think the other thing is, is building a broader coalition with people who we haven't in the past. There's a concept in the study of politics called interest group capture. 

[00:53:46] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:53:46] Noah Schwartz: And that's when an interest group gets, you know, captured by a political party, so that interest group can't plausibly defect to another political party.

[00:53:55] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:53:56] Noah Schwartz: This has been kind of one of the things that the American pro-gun movement has been really good [00:54:00] at, i- is, uh, because a lot of gun policy happens at the state level in the US, there are states where that, you know, the gun movement has build, uh, built a coalition and built alliances with Democrats- 

[00:54:09] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

[00:54:10] Noah Schwartz: in a way that pro- protects them from, from, you know, uh, regulation. So I think the Canadian, as long as the Conservative Party remains the only safe party for Canadian gun owners, we are, uh, the, the community's guaranteed to lose 70% of the time. 

[00:54:26] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:54:26] Noah Schwartz: Because the Liberal Party is the most suc- electorally speaking- 

[00:54:29] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

[00:54:30] Noah Schwartz: the Liberal Party is the most successful party of any democracy, um, in terms of, like, the actual clock of how long they've been in power. 

[00:54:37] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:54:37] Noah Schwartz: Right? They're very ideologically flexible, which allows them to change positions quickly to meet the demands of the moment and stay in power. Mm. And, and they've built that sort of big coalition in the center where they can now kind of steal MPs from the Conservatives, steal MPs from the New, New Democrats, right?

Mm. Um, so I, I think the community needs to ... During my research, one thing that I found was that there are a lot of [00:55:00] progressive gun owners who feel politically homeless. 

[00:55:03] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:55:04] Noah Schwartz: They, they feel like when they go to the gun range, you know, all, all of the conversation is, is maybe somewhat alienating to them or a part of their, their identity, um, right?

Or, and they feel like when they're in their progressive circles, you know, they get, you know, called ... There was one guy who said his, his cousin found out that he had guns, and he called him a Trump supporter or something like that. 

[00:55:23] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:55:24] Noah Schwartz: Right? So there's all these stereotypes and ideas. So, so I think building that coalition, giving those people a home within the mainstream of, of, uh, of gun advocacy and then broadening the appeal to parties like the NDP, which traditionally had a, a rural and working class base, which- Traditionally

which traditionally, right? Um, and, and I've met people in the NDP who are, are, are sort of- Trying and, and working very hard to, to push for that within the party- Mm ... but, but they feel kind of like lone voices in the wilderness. So I think building that broader coalition, finding a way to build institutions, and then, and then build partnerships with, with big Canadian institutions like National Defense, [00:56:00] these are all kind of broader systemic-level strategies that can help overcome the numerical weakness that gun owners in Canada have.

[00:56:07] Travis Bader: I don't disagree with your concept on, uh, alignment with National Defense. Mm-hmm. I think that's a very astute point. Where I'm a little cloudy is how do you do that, particularly- Yeah ... in the... Like, have you, uh, given thought to the, the mechanism for implementation on something like that? Like, we look at service rifle being wiped out and the, um, uh, a, a lot of the, um, BCRA and DCRA disciplines being, coming under attack.

Like, that, that was the obvious point, I think, in the past for civilian and, uh, national defense sort of overlap. 

[00:56:46] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:56:47] Travis Bader: Have you given thought to how, how gun owners out there can properly advocate, or what, what would need to happen in order for, um, that to even be entertained, the idea of [00:57:00] firearms ownership and national defense?

'Cause I think it goes contrary to, uh, the aspirations of somebody who would be against firearms. 

[00:57:06] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:57:07] Travis Bader: The, the, the fact that we have capable people out there who know how to use... Like, e- spitballing, I would say mandatory conscription might not be a bad idea. Right. Um, because I look at countries that have mandatory conscription, and I know it's not a popular standpoint, but you talk to anybody who's been through it, not the people who are waiting to go through it.

Nobody wants to do it. Then they go through it, and they're like, "Holy crow, I got to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with different people from different religions and different backgrounds, and I have this, this sense of civil pride now, and I have... We all have eaten the same dirt, and we have a shared understanding."

There's a cultural, um, significance to being able to have mandatory conscription. Uh, I can see that as being a very beneficial piece to marrying in the idea of firearms and, and national defense at a, at a national level, but I c- also see that one being [00:58:00] unpopular with a lot, too. Um- 

[00:58:03] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. I, I think that marriage has to come from advocacy.

[00:58:05] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:58:05] Noah Schwartz: Right? It comes from at the grassroots level, you know, talking to your member of parliament, writing letters to, to the newspaper, things like that. Mm-hmm. Right? The advocacy component. And then at the organizational level, it comes from people in organizations, you know, like, uh, like IPSC, like other disciplines that, that might be relevant, reaching out and, and doing that kind of lobbying component to see where can we find tho- build those partnerships.

Um, can we have a, you know, a, a military day at our range where active members of the force can come and shoot for free and, and, you know, have, have different types of competitions with civilians, things like that. Mm. So I think it comes with i- i- it's gonna have to sort of happen at, at, at the, at the group level.

I don't think the government at this point is gonna reach out and make that case. Mm. But I think that there are probably civil servants within, within the government, even if the political level doesn't see eye to eye, making those connections with powerful civil servants who are able to or- you know, uh, facilitate events like that.

Um- 

[00:58:59] Travis Bader: Yeah, there might, there might [00:59:00] be a political appetite for it now too, based on the recent, uh, things I've read about Carney saying, "Oh, we're gonna turn our civil servants into, uh, active military members, or a certain percentage of." Yes. "Or we're going to, uh, create a, um, an immigration system where we can immigrate soldiers from other countries."

I can't see that going wrong at all. But, um, uh, there, that component, I think, would, uh, fly a heck of a lot further than the past two things that I've read about in the media that have been floated. 

[00:59:32] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. A- and I think this is the moment. Mm. Like, that speaks to the fact that this is really the moment.

Canadians are thinking about national defense in a way, a- and, and identity and patriotism in a way that they haven't, for context, within my lifetime, right? 

[00:59:43] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:59:44] Noah Schwartz: Like, growing up when I was a kid, like, Canadian soldier equaled peacekeeper. 

[00:59:47] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:59:47] Noah Schwartz: That, that was, that was our image of ourself. Um, and, and now we're starting to talk about, like, well, no, you know, the, the Canadian military, it, during World War I and World War II, was, um...

Am I allowed to swear on the, the podcast? You can swear 

[00:59:59] Travis Bader: [01:00:00] all 

[01:00:00] Noah Schwartz: you want. All right. It was a kick-ass fighting force, right? Yes. That, that handed our, our, our enemies their, their butts on a silver plate, right? 

[01:00:06] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:00:06] Noah Schwartz: So- They were 

[01:00:06] Travis Bader: savages. 

[01:00:07] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. So, so I, I, I think, you know, Canadians have that within us. I think Canadians are a friendly and polite people, but you don't wanna confuse friendliness and politeness for, for meekness.

Mm. 'Cause I, 'cause I think w- when Canadians are threatened, they have each other's backs and, and they stand up. And, and telling that story and getting back to that, that strength, I think makes us, gives us a better negotiating platform on a global stage a- and helps us, and, and a better negotiating platform with the United States.

Mm. 'Cause right now they, they, you know, um, we might hate when Trump taunts us and, and the folks working in, in his- Sure ... cabinet, but, you know- When we're, when our, our, you know, defense umbrella is based around our integration with the Americans and relying on the Americans, like, there's not a lot we can say back.

[01:00:55] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:00:55] Noah Schwartz: So, uh- 

[01:00:56] Travis Bader: Kinda asked for it. 

[01:00:57] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:00:57] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:00:58] Noah Schwartz: So I, so I think patriotism is cool [01:01:00] again. Mm. And I think that's a good thing. 

[01:01:01] Travis Bader: I do, too. 

[01:01:02] Noah Schwartz: And, and I think that we, we need to use this moment to, to, once again, retell Canada's story and assert the place of a responsible and well-regulated, um, not, not, you know, in the in the- Well-regulated was-

Second Amendment says. I know well re- well-regulated might have a, a, a bad connotation, but, but seriously, you know, like, a very regulated community of people who follows the rules. Mm. Who are, are willing to jump through those hoops, um, and, and who can be an asset and, and help the community a- and their government when, when the time comes.

[01:01:30] Travis Bader: Who are already criminally record-checked, vetted, trained, all the rest. 

[01:01:34] Noah Schwartz: Exactly. 

[01:01:35] Travis Bader: Interesting. Um, I'd like to hear what the audience thinks about that because, uh, yeah. Throw it in the comments, s- your thoughts. I'd li- I'd like to see what, uh, people think about that one 'cause, uh, I like it. I think it's got legs.

Um, so here's one I wanted to pick your brain from a, um, political science perspective. So the 2020 OIC was enacted by cabinet decree, no Parliament [01:02:00] debate. From a political theory standpoint, what does it mean that a liberal democracy has built mechanisms by which the executive can criminalize entire categories of citizen behavior without legislative scrutiny?

[01:02:14] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it's part of, um, a dangerous trend in politics that actually goes beyond Canada, uh, um, to the United States. A- and, and this is where, you know, this is something that whether you're a conservative or progressive, you should be really concerned about, um, because what we're seeing in the United States is a broad overreach of executive power, and executive power being stretched, and this has happened over decades, right?

Mm. People have been writing about it, uh, the u- unitary presidency, um, uh, theory in political science, where, where you're seeing the executive take more and more power onto themselves and kind of bypass that legislative scrutiny. 

[01:02:51] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:02:51] Noah Schwartz: Um, and in Canada, I think we've been see- seeing it happen, too, and I think this, this OIC is part of that.

We've seen more and more power concentrated in the prime minister's [01:03:00] office, less and less power with individual MPs. You're seeing sort of more and more MPs stick to the party line versus do their job, which is represent their constituents, right? What was the big line during the recent defections to the Liberal Party?

Mm. Was that you vote for a person, you don't vote for a party in Canada, right? Mm. That's the reality of how our parliamentary democracy works. Well, if you're voting for a person, that person should represent their constituents, um, and they should have the em- be empowered to do so. Um, so I think enacting this stuff through OIC, um, was it legal and legitimate within the rules of the game?

Yes. Does it have negative implications for, for democracy and, and the ability to have this stuff out in the open with debate? Definitely. And is it bad just from a process perspective? Even if you're, even if you don't care about guns, if you care about good public policy, it's really clear that this ban is not good public policy.

Hmm. I think everybody's waking up to that now, even people who, once again, don't care about guns. And if this had been done properly [01:04:00] through the legislative process, right, that's where we catch bad ideas. 

[01:04:03] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:03] Noah Schwartz: That's the point of having Parliament is- Mm-hmm ... is to have ideas flooded through this sort of as wide a net as possible, have multiple perspectives shared, and have policy be improved through the process.

That didn't happen here. The government missed a ton of opportunities. Even, like, with, with the handgun freeze, right? A lot of Canadians are- 

[01:04:21] Travis Bader: Freeze ... 

[01:04:22] Noah Schwartz: freeze, yes. 

[01:04:23] Travis Bader: Well, 

[01:04:23] Noah Schwartz: a lot of C- 'Cause 

[01:04:24] Travis Bader: you can't ban them. We'll just call it a freeze. Freeze. Right? 

[01:04:26] Noah Schwartz: A lot of Canadians don't realize that single-shot flintlock black powder pistols were banned alongside Glocks.

[01:04:35] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:35] Noah Schwartz: Right? And when you tell people that, their eyes kind of... I- if you explain to them what it is, they're like, "Really? That, you know, that's something that should be too dangerous for people to own?" And it's, once again, it's 'cause the government didn't consult with this. They didn't consult with the, you know, advocacy groups.

They didn't consult with the sports shooters groups. They just put in this blanket ban, um, that really makes, makes so little sense considering how strictly regulated handguns were in Canada beforehand and the hoops that people had to jump [01:05:00] through to get them. So once again, I, I, I, I think this is just bad public policy.

Hmm. And, and, and it speaks to why we need to think really carefully about how much power we're allowing to be concentrated in, in the Prime Minister's office versus Parliament. 

[01:05:15] Travis Bader: So in your research and talking with all the different sides and your exposure within the university environment, why do you think they brought in the, uh, handgun ban and the, the OIC prohibitions?

Because I'm not entirely certain it's got anything to do with guns. 

[01:05:32] Noah Schwartz: I, I think it's about politics. 

[01:05:33] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:05:34] Noah Schwartz: I think it's, it's about the, you know, they looked at the numbers. It, it's, it's partially, you know, politicking over what's happening in the United States. 

[01:05:43] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:05:44] Noah Schwartz: Right? 'Cause the US has a gun violence problem.

Most people in Canada follow American news quite, quite closely, right? And so the, you know, politicians decided they could score a lot of points by pretending we're the United States, and that they're bringing in strict gun laws that are gonna save this. And you see this in the [01:06:00] rhetoric that was used, right?

Hmm. Um, Prime Minister Trudeau, when he's announcing the ban, he says thoughts and prayers, uh, ar- aren't gonna be a part of it. It's like that's not a Canadian talking point. Mm-hmm. Nobody here says that because, you know, we changed our laws. We, we, we've had two rounds of massive sweeps. This is the third round, right?

We had the round in the '70s. We have the round in the '90s, and now, now a third round, right? This, this isn't the United States. We don't have a political inaction problem on this, right? 

[01:06:25] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:06:26] Noah Schwartz: When was the handke- gun freeze brought in? After the Uvalde, Texas massacre. Right. Right? Last time I checked, Tex- Texas wasn't a province of Canada.

That's 

[01:06:33] Travis Bader: right. 

[01:06:34] Noah Schwartz: Um, a- a- it, r- so, so this is all about scoring political points off of, once again, sh- playing to that idea that people want- Canadians wanna feel smug about not being American. 

[01:06:46] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:06:46] Noah Schwartz: So you play to that Canadian self-image of, "Look how much better we are to the Americans." Yeah, you're gonna tick off these 2.4 million people, but they were never gonna vote for you anyways 'cause they live in rural areas or, or, or places that ar- aren't necessarily the, the big urban, urban bastions of, of the Liberal [01:07:00] Party.

Um, and, and from that perspective, from that real politic Game of Thrones perspective- Sure ... politically, like, it, it sort of makes sense. Except that once you bring in these policies, you have to own them. 

[01:07:11] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:07:11] Noah Schwartz: And just like the long gun registry, right? When the public starts seeing the price tag, suddenly it makes less sense to them.

[01:07:18] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:07:19] Noah Schwartz: When you have six years for, you know, uh, idiots like me to stand up in the media and say, "Hey, you know, hello. I don't think this is a good idea." Um, that, that you start to break through, and people start to hear that other perspective, and they start to think about it carefully, right? Mm. And you see public, uh, opinion turn, which once again speaks to why we should put things to the legislative process normally.

[01:07:40] Travis Bader: I agree. 

[01:07:40] Noah Schwartz: Right? And, and why we shouldn't, you know, why public policy should be based on sound evidence and not, you know, a desire to score political points. Obviously, that's a perfect world. That's not the world we live in. We l- we live in a world of politics, and, and that's how decisions are made, but, um, you know, we can dream.

[01:07:58] Travis Bader: Okay. Well, in your book you talk [01:08:00] about the Czech Republic. Yeah. And you talk about a, there was a shooting that happened over there, and then afterwards as a response to the shooting, they took action, but they did it in a different way. Why, what did they do? What happened over there, and, uh, why do you think they took a different approach than Canada?

[01:08:19] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. So the Czech Republic, their, their firearms laws are, are really interesting because I think Canadians have a tendency to imagine Europe having stricter gun control than Canada. 

[01:08:26] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:08:27] Noah Schwartz: But I think that's 'cause we're so historically tied to Great Britain. Hmm. Right? And, and we imagine that everything that the British are doing is happening on the continent.

Yeah. And, and we know the British, like, that, that, uh, you know, British and, Britain and Australia, um, have, have quite draconian firearm laws. Hmm. Right? Um, uh, on the continent, things are, things are different. You see a, a wider variety, right? You have places like Norway and Finland and Sweden where suppressors are widely available- Sure

for people to use. Uh, the Czech Republic is an interesting example because they have, uh, g- civilian concealed carry. 

[01:08:56] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:08:56] Noah Schwartz: And they've brought into their constitution a, a sort of [01:09:00] quasi right to, to own firearms. Um, and studies that have come out, so there was a, a really interesting study, uh, that compared, you know, uh, violent- levels of, of firearms violence in the UK and in, in the, uh, Czechia or the Czech Republic.

Yeah. And they found that Czechia was much safer, right? Um, which points to, you know, firearms regulation, obviously firearms are dangerous tools. They have to be regulated in some capacity, but that's not what's going to stop crime. Like, that, that's- You know, a baseline 

[01:09:30] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[01:09:31] Noah Schwartz: but there are tons of other factors that contribute to crime and violence.

And so if we keep thinking that, okay, you know, every time there's a violent incident, we just have to kind of ratchet the gun control thing tighter, we're, we're chasing really, really diminishing returns- Mm-hmm ... and we're not paying attention to, to the root of the problem. 

[01:09:46] Travis Bader: Which is? 

[01:09:47] Noah Schwartz: Which is, uh, complicated, right?

Mm. There are components of psychology, there are components of sociology, right? I think, uh, a lot of... U- ultimately, crime stems from unmet need, right? A person who is [01:10:00] able to get what they want through mainstream institutions in society, right, isn't gonna resort to crime, right? Mm. If you're able to get a good job or, you know, go to school and, a- and then get a good job after, things like that, right, you don't feel the need to, to do things like that.

But when I was doing research for a, a recent project, I spoke to people working with communities, uh, where poverty's concentrated. Mm. I spoke to a worker in, you know, downtown Winnipeg who, um, they would take people who were involved in, in, you know, um, the gang lifestyle and they'd offer them legitimate employment.

[01:10:33] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:10:33] Noah Schwartz: And, and oftentimes those folks would say to them, you know, "Man, this work is really hard. I can make- ... I can make a, you know, two months' salary in an afternoon on- Right ... the street selling drugs, so, so why am I doing this?" Right? So I think a- addressing those really complex social problems- Mm ... having those conversations, uh, you know, about supports for mental health, 'cause we don't have good supports for mental health in this country.

We 

[01:10:57] Travis Bader: don't. 

[01:10:57] Noah Schwartz: It's really expensive- 

[01:10:58] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[01:10:58] Noah Schwartz: to have access to mental health [01:11:00] services. Having those conversations, a- about, um, programs that, that help these at-risk communities, um, and help get people out of the gang lifestyle, that's where we see the bang for our buck. 

[01:11:10] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:11:11] Noah Schwartz: When... And, and that also helps to cut through that partisan divide, right?

Because a lot of the organizations that work in this space are private nonprofits, so there's... If you're, if I'm... You know, you're speaking to conservatives or conservative politicians, you say, "This isn't a big government program. These are small," right? The, you know, this is just funding to these private groups that are doing really good work.

[01:11:29] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:11:30] Noah Schwartz: If you're talking to progressives, you say, "We're tackling poverty, we're tackling systemic injustice, we're dealing with those root causes of violence." So it's a, it's a win-win. Mm-hmm. It's a program that can be sold to both sides, but it's not as politically sexy as saying, "Look at this scary rifle.

We're gonna ban it." 

[01:11:46] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:47] Noah Schwartz: And so it doesn't satisfy, unfortunately, that, that political, political itch, um- 

[01:11:53] Travis Bader: Yeah ... that 

[01:11:53] Noah Schwartz: it needs to. 

[01:11:54] Travis Bader: Because mental health is a huge aspect of this. 

[01:11:56] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:11:56] Travis Bader: I- it's a, uh... Mentally healthy people [01:12:00] don't go around shooting other people. 

[01:12:02] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:12:02] Travis Bader: By and large, right? It's, it's, um- 

[01:12:06] Noah Schwartz: Well, a- and sorry to k- cut you off, but the suicide component as well, right?

Well, it's huge. The major- majority of firearms deaths in Can- or the majority of firearms deaths in Canada are death by suicide. 

[01:12:15] Travis Bader: 81% or so. 

[01:12:16] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is a mental health co- And, and it's, it's- Politically sketchy to say that sometimes because I think people feel like you're passing the buck or stigmatizing people with mental health issues.

We know people with mental health issues are much more likely to harm themselves than anyone else. Mm-hmm. So we don't want to risk, risk, uh, contributing to that stigma, but it doesn't mean we can't have that conversation about having better, better supports for people who need it. 

[01:12:39] Travis Bader: It's kind of funny because when they brought in the new Canadian Firearm Safety Course program back in 1994, and prior to that they didn't have this training program- Mm

one of the first things they want people to know is the breakdown of deaths in Canada by firearm through homicide, suicide, and accident. And it's a test question that they'll ask people about, and they should know [01:13:00] that b- 80, 81% of firearms deaths in Canada are suicide. Yet they spend all of this money putting in this training program for people with firearms and with the knowledge, and gotta know that suicide's gonna be the biggest killer.

If, if there's a firearm death- Mm ... 80, 81% of them are gonna be suicide in Canada. But why aren't we seeing the same amount of attention and resources being attributed to mental health as we are firearms? Or are we seeing it and I'm just not seeing it? 

[01:13:33] Noah Schwartz: Well, a- and not only that, but recent legislative changes have made it more difficult, I think, for gun owners to, to have access to tho- to those, uh- Right

right? So, you know, what's something that happens in the community when someone knows that they're going through a tough time? Mm. Often they'll pass their firearms over to someone else, right? They'll, they'll have a friend, you say, "Listen, I'm not doing so well. Can you hang on to my guns until I'm doing better?"

Mm-hmm. If you're 

[01:13:54] Travis Bader: an 

[01:13:55] Noah Schwartz: RPAL holder right now, how do you do that? How do you tr- legally [01:14:00] transfer your handguns? S- right? Then you're dealing with a whole bunch of bureaucracy, um, if, if you're even able, able to do that. 

[01:14:06] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:06] Noah Schwartz: Um, if you're, you know, in Quebec and they have the registry, you've added another layer of complexity- 

[01:14:12] Travis Bader: Mm

[01:14:13] Noah Schwartz: to doing that, right? Even with, uh, the regulation of private sales now, if you're doing a temporary transfer and then having your buddy hold onto your guns, right, suddenly the CFO's office is getting involved in this c- in this conversation potentially. So you're, you're adding barriers for people- Mm ... to be able to, these informal institutions for people to be able to do what they need.

And then plus you have the component of, with the, one thing I heard from folks about the, the red and yellow flag laws is that there are people who are scared to seek out 

[01:14:40] Travis Bader: help. That's it, and that's the one I think that people don't talk about as much. 

[01:14:44] Noah Schwartz: 100%. 

[01:14:45] Travis Bader: The other ones, you can see them on the surface.

You can see, okay, there's barriers here to them being able to go out. I have people come by here, we're a licensed firearms company, they'll bring firearms, they're going through a divorce, "Can you store the firearms here?" Or, "Having a hard time, can [01:15:00] I store firearms here?" Yeah, absolutely. Not a problem. Is there anything else we can do to help you, right?

Mm. Um, here's some people you can talk to, here's some literature you can read. B- whatever we can do to, to help. "No, no, no, I'm good, I'm good, I just, you know, I'm taking precautions." Fair enough. You talk to people who are- Who firearms make up a larger part of their life, whether that be because it's their profession, like I own a firearms business, or they're a competitive shooter, or it's they're a collector, it plays a larger portion.

Maybe some of their identity's tied up in that. They go and they want to talk to a talk doc, who are they talking to? Does that person have personal biases? Yeah. One phone call, one note in the binder, and, or on the notepad there, and they might never see their guns again in the future, and that's a legitimate concern for people.

[01:15:47] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:15:47] Travis Bader: I could lose my business if I'm going through a tough time. I, I know personally, like there's an apology letter on the, the wall up there from the RCMP, but they raided here and, uh, that was a six-year [01:16:00] ordeal that, uh, eventually they ended up paying out an undisclosed sum and a, um, an apology letter.

Mm. Rare one. But you think it wasn't tough? You think it wasn't tough when you're selling your furniture in order to be able to make payroll, when you're eating freezer-burnt meat from friends from, uh, uh, years past 'cause you didn't have enough money for food? Who am I gonna talk to? I'm not talking to anyone.

I don't want to jeopardize my ability to, uh, to run a business, so that's, I think- Yeah ... a very real one right there. 

[01:16:26] Noah Schwartz: 100%, and this is what happens when you treat this like a criminal justice and regulatory conversation, right? Every other community in Canada seems entitled. Like, we, we've started to shift our way from this sort of punitive view to, to harm reduction, right?

When we think about the way that we're dealing with the toxic drug crisis, when you think about that we're- the way we're dealing with other social issues. But with gun owners, it seems to always be punitive. 

[01:16:50] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:16:51] Noah Schwartz: Why aren't we talking about harm reduction when it comes to, to firearms owners, and why aren't we ta- Like, the- to, to me, it just seems so obvious that we would want to create a [01:17:00] regulatory environment that would allow people experiencing mental health issues first and foremost to get help without that, that fear of, of losing their, in many cases, social circle.

Right. Which is a lot of people, what, what, you know, folk- there are folks I talk to, um, this woman was talking about her dad, and she said, you know, if her dad loses his firearms, that's his social group. 

[01:17:18] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:17:18] Noah Schwartz: We talk about, you know, senior citizens and loneliness. 

[01:17:21] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:17:21] Noah Schwartz: Right? So I, I don't know, that, that part just, just it- I can't see it as anything but vindictive.

[01:17:28] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:17:28] Noah Schwartz: Just 'cause from a policy perspective, like, it, it, it, it makes no sense to me. I don't- 

[01:17:32] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:17:33] Noah Schwartz: And then I, it makes me really frustrated when I see what people like you have, have gone through and, and yeah, that, like, my heart really breaks for, for folks in that situation. 

[01:17:41] Travis Bader: So I'm gonna switch gears here a little bit.

There's a, um, fellow by the name of Blake Brown. I guess he's my wife's second cousin. 

[01:17:51] Noah Schwartz: Oh. 

[01:17:52] Travis Bader: So at some point in the back, I got a book sent over to me. He says, "You should read this book. It's, uh, from a relative." I've- I don't think I've ever met him. [01:18:00] I never read the book. But I, uh, I looked through it. There's got a chapter in there called Angry White Man, and I, it is a quick thumb through on this thing, and I'm like, "I don't know.

Do I want to read this book?" And I, other people in the gun community, I kind of have to go Hush hush that there's some relation to this, this fellow, which by and large it looks like it was supposed to be a historical account of firearms in Canada, but it also seems heavily flavored if I talk to others.

Should I read this book by, uh, Blake Brown and, um, where do you think his lens misses what's actually happening? 

[01:18:36] Noah Schwartz: I would say absolutely yes. Read it. 

[01:18:37] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:18:37] Noah Schwartz: Um, it is one of the books that I actually cite the most. 

[01:18:40] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:18:41] Noah Schwartz: Um, and I think up until the coverage of maybe more modern d- modern debates, it's an incredibly fair telling of the history of guns in Canada 'cause it, it, it really sh- talks about this relationship between guns and political power.

[01:18:56] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:18:56] Noah Schwartz: Not always explicitly, but often implicitly when we talk [01:19:00] about the sort of those, you know, um, after the Battle of Quebec, for example, when, when Great Britain takes possession of, of New France's, uh, colonies i- in Canada, um, right? What's the... One of the first things that the, the government does is they disarm French Canadians.

[01:19:14] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:15] Noah Schwartz: Right? They disarm the Ca- Quebecois. Um, i- with indigenous people, right? You have the, the Northwest Resistance, you have Louis Riel. What's one of the things that the government does? They, they disarm indigenous people- Right ... and disarm Metis people, right? So I, I think that's such an important component of our history that we ought not forget because often fire...

gun control policy is seen through the prism of this, like, just kind of benevolent public safety policy. 

[01:19:37] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:19:38] Noah Schwartz: And if you're a scholar and a good scholar, you should know, first of all, there's no such thing as benevolent public safety. Right? Like, policy is always, uh, ab- about picking winners and losers.

Sure. We present policies as solutions to problems. They're more often than not trade-offs. Hmm. And they, and anything that the government dal- does involves the exercise of power, right? Paying your taxes, right? Who's gonna pay your taxes if it's voluntary? [01:20:00] No, there has to be some component of force backing that up.

No community in history has survived based on, on voluntary taxation. It's part of solving those collective action problems, but it means that the exercise of policy is the exercise of power, and we have to be responsible and careful and thoughtful when we, when we do that. So I think that's what Brown's book does incredibly well, is it tells that story.

I think when it gets to the, uh, you know, I really take exce- that name of that chapter sticks out to me too. I know. I 

[01:20:25] Travis Bader: know. 

[01:20:25] Noah Schwartz: Uh, 'cause, 'cause up until there I'm like, "I, I'm with you. I love this book." And as I said, like I, I, I cite it very often, but, but I think there's that, that's where sort of the maybe the political perspective can, can, can sometimes cloud that because- Hmm

uh, I, I think that's an unfortunate way to characterize any large group of people. 

[01:20:44] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:20:45] Noah Schwartz: It speaks to the political moment that we're in, right? Um, like, white men are seen as a group that we can, we can pick on politically. 

[01:20:53] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:20:53] Noah Schwartz: And, and that we're... You're not gonna face a social cost for that, especially in, in progressive or academic circles.

Hmm. Um, [01:21:00] but I, you know, I'm of the mind that we, we... I don't think we should stereotype anyone- No ... regardless of whether they're from a more powerful or a less powerful group. And, and from my- empirical observations, talking to hundreds of gun owners across the country. Whether that fit in the '70s and '80s, the period that, that he's writing about, I can't say.

I, I, you know, I wasn't alive then. Fair 

[01:21:20] Travis Bader: enough. 

[01:21:20] Noah Schwartz: But, but what I can say now is that doesn't characterize the gun community now. Mm. Um, and, and the people that I've spoken to. Like, I talk to people from indigenous backgrounds, um, people from, from, uh, you know, women who are as passionate about holding onto their guns as the men in the community, so I, I wouldn't say that's a fair characterization anym- at the present.

[01:21:39] Travis Bader: Yeah, it just makes it really easy to slot people into a group, and- Yeah ... like you say, it's politically expedient to say, "Well, okay. Well, you're obviously on the other side now." 

[01:21:49] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:21:50] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:21:50] Noah Schwartz: And if w- you know, if you think about historically if we were writing about the suffragette woman, right, i- it might be empirically valid to say that, you know, the suffragettes were angry white [01:22:00] women, right?

But they had good reason to be angry, right? Sure. They were being mistreated by the government. They were, they were considered not even citizens, let alone second-class citizens. 

[01:22:07] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:08] Noah Schwartz: So, um, yeah. I, I, I think that, uh, I d- I wouldn't agree with that characterization, but I think broadly speaking, the book is, is something that firearms owners would appreciate because it really does give that deep dive into the history of Canada.

And then because of that fact about, um, rifle shooting being the first, uh, sport in Canada to get federal funding, that comes from that book, right? Mm. So I, I wouldn't know a lot of what I know now if I hadn't read 

[01:22:32] Travis Bader: it. In your NFA keynote, you told a room full of gun owners that treating the media as the enemy is a losing strategy.

[01:22:38] Noah Schwartz: Hmm. 

[01:22:39] Travis Bader: It's not a popular thing to say. Why'd you say it, and what does engagement actually look like when so many feel they've been burned? 

[01:22:47] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. So, uh, I think engagement means having good faith conversations, uh, with people in the media. I, I think there is, you know... It's observable. We can see that there is slant in the coverage of gun owners in the [01:23:00] media.

[01:23:00] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:23:00] Noah Schwartz: And that, I think, by the community is often interpreted as kind of like a personal attack or some sort of vigni- vigni- dictiveness or, or hatred o- on, on the part of the media, and, and I don't think broadly that's true. I think there are obviously some, some people in the media who are very political and see gun owners as the enemy.

I don't think that's the majority. 

[01:23:17] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:23:17] Noah Schwartz: Um, people, you know... I've spoken to a lot of reporters, uh, as a, um... And for the most part, um, I, I think they are, they really just don't know much About the gun world, right? 

[01:23:29] Travis Bader: I agree. 

[01:23:30] Noah Schwartz: The majority of them are coming from big cities. Like, a lot of them are based in Toronto and stuff like that.

They might have never met a gun owner or have one in their social circle. They might have never been shooting. Um, and from their perspective, it's really hard to get the perspective of gun owners. 

[01:23:43] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:23:43] Noah Schwartz: Because it's not like there's a re- like, uh, you know, I'm an academic. My picture's on a website. They can call me and ask me about it, right?

You can't cold-call people's houses and say, "Hey, are you a gun owner?" Right? Actually getting access to people in the community is tricky, so you'll see when they do interviews, it's often with business owners, because business owners have a website. 

[01:23:59] Travis Bader: [01:24:00] Right. 

[01:24:00] Noah Schwartz: Right? Um, and this is where I think the w- part of that storytelling and outreach angle, I think if more gun ranges in Canada had someone on their board who was in charge of media relations- Mm

and public relations for the range, and was able to have their f- you know, reach out and say, "Hey, if you need to get the perspective of gun owners on a story, reach out to me. I'll con- connect you with someone in our club who's willing to talk." 

[01:24:21] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:24:22] Noah Schwartz: I think that would go a long way, 'cause I've even had reporters ask me, like, "Hey, do you know anyone who's affected by the ban- Mm-hmm

who I can talk to?" And I'm like, from an ethical perspective, I can't just cold-call my past research participants and say, "Hey, are you..." You know. "I want to talk to a reporter," right? Yeah. And a lot of people aren't willing to, because it- it they're afraid it puts a target on their back, right? Yeah. So, so that's where having, like, someone who speaks for the club, and the collective voice of the club, and, and it, and can s- and maybe has a bit of media training, right- Mm

um, a- as well, so that they're, they're putting, you know, the- their best foot forward and, and representing the community fairly and in a good light- 

[01:24:53] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:24:54] Noah Schwartz: I think would go a long way. Um, but I, I think the strategy that we've seen more [01:25:00] broadly of antagonizing the media to score, to try to build, like a, a, you know, political points, I think is ultimately counterproductive.

[01:25:08] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:25:08] Noah Schwartz: I understand why a lot of people who are in politics do it. Um, it's, it's, it's a good strategy for fundraising. Um- 

[01:25:15] Travis Bader: Right ... 

[01:25:16] Noah Schwartz: but it's not a good strategy for building bridges and, and for, for educating the public and, and having a richer, better debate that's not based on emotion. 

[01:25:23] Travis Bader: Yeah. I think, um, I think that's something that, uh, people who belong to gun organizations should be aware of, and hold the directors and the organization accountable for.

Are you doing something that's moving the needle in a positive way forward for what we all believe to be the shared cause, whatever that organization is, or are you just speaking to the masses? Are, or sorry, to- Yeah ... are you speaking to your base? 

[01:25:49] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:25:49] Travis Bader: Are you trying to, uh, just sell memberships? Are you putting billboards up in cities that are already, they are, you're singing to the choir, right?

It's, they're on the same song sheet, [01:26:00] and often I see a lot of that. G- gotcha. We got our gotcha points. We're gonna sit down with this, a member of parliament, and we're gonna make him look really bad, and we're gonna raise some money. 

[01:26:10] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:26:10] Travis Bader: Well, try getting an interview with another member of parliament after that one.

Try having your voice heard somewhere. Um, so I think there is a responsibility on anybody who's a part of an organization to look long and hard as to- What they're doing. There's so many people are looking for a savior. Like, I feel hard done by, I feel put upon, I feel like there's all these rules being created, and I'm losing my property, and I got a lot of money in these things.

Who's gonna save me? 

[01:26:37] Noah Schwartz: Mm. 

[01:26:37] Travis Bader: And I think the reality is you're gonna save you. Each individual has a high level of personal agency if they exercise it. And- Yeah ... by putting that power into a third party, into a group or an organization, unvetted, uncontrolled, is you- you're falling into the same traps as other people.

[01:26:57] Noah Schwartz: One- 100%. I was listening to your episode that you did with Dan [01:27:00] Fritter where- Mm ... where you, you know, talk about a similar, a, a similar topic, and I, I, I completely agree. Um, once again, you know, there, there are things that every person listening to this podcast can do. A- and, you know, I imagine that most listeners are, are members of a gun range.

You can show up to your, your, the, you know, the annual general meeting of your range or the monthly board meeting, and you can say, "Hey, how come we don't have a media relations per- person? I'm reasonably articulate. I, I'm, you know- ... a thoughtful person. I'd be happy to volunteer to do that position." Right?

And it probably wouldn't be a very labor-intensive position to begin with. If you've got some social media skills, if you, you know, you can, you can build a website, something like that. 

[01:27:35] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:36] Noah Schwartz: I, I think there, there are ways for everybody... The, the basic cornerstone of, of pluralist democracy is the idea that everybody needs to play a, a role in the way that we're governed.

[01:27:47] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:47] Noah Schwartz: And when you give over the responsibility to someone else to be your voice, you might not always like what they say. So yeah, I think it's incumbent upon, uh, upon everybody to take action to, to make the political change that you [01:28:00] wanna see in the world in a way that's positive and constructive.

[01:28:04] Travis Bader: I'm looking at the laws here. So we look at the RCMP. They classify a firearm as non-restricted in 2017, and then prohibit an AR-15 as a prohibited AR-15 variant in 2020. So 2017, non-restricted. Oh, 2020, now it's a prohibited AR-15 variant, without any new technical information. What does political science tell us about why that bureaucratic reversal happens with no consequence?

[01:28:38] Noah Schwartz: I think it... Yeah, I think we need a lot more transparency on the way that these decisions are, are, are being made. I'll give you some perspective. I'm working on a research project right now, um, that's not on firearms, but it's about Canada's weapons laws more broadly. 

[01:28:52] Travis Bader: Mm. '

[01:28:52] Noah Schwartz: Cause I've spent a lot of time with the criminal code in my research.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I found, like, there are some sort of strange things in there. It's like, why can't... why are nunchucks [01:29:00] illegal in 

[01:29:00] Travis Bader: Canada? I know. 

[01:29:00] Noah Schwartz: Why are throwing stars? And, and I asked that question. I'm like, I actually wanna find out. 

[01:29:04] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:29:04] Noah Schwartz: So I, I filed a whole bunch of ATIPS, and, and I've... and I'm trying to get...

and looked at the parliamentary debate, the Hansard, and I'm sort of trying to get a sense of how those decisions are being made. And, and I, I f- it's very, very difficult to do that- About even historically, about decisions that were made in the 1970s that aren't even remotely politically contentious right now.

[01:29:23] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:29:23] Noah Schwartz: Um, so I, I, I think this is maybe one area where, where we should think about demanding more transparency from government because I, I... And where I think, y- you know, if the government is serious about reconsidering the classification system in Canada and wants to do that in a good faith way that actually makes us safer, that we should really think about having, like, objective criteria that people can, uh, can point to when we're making these classification- Mm

decisions. Because it's one of those areas where I think if the general public, like, got into the weeds and looked at this stuff, they would say, "This seems very, very complicated for..." Right? For needlessly [01:30:00] so. 

[01:30:00] Travis Bader: Yeah. I think, I think, uh, you kinda hit the nail on the head there with having objective criteria.

Like, when we look at the OIC prohibitions and what, what's happening here, like, if you're gonna create laws with harsh criminal consequence, that discretionary power cannot remain unfettered. It has to have a list of checks and balances as to why you did that. And to my understanding, I don't see that. It- I don't see that in there

[01:30:27] Noah Schwartz: it has to be easily understood by the public. Like, how many people- Mm ... now are running around with firearms they have no idea are banned? 

[01:30:32] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:30:32] Noah Schwartz: Because instead of saying like, "Okay, we're gonna regulate semi-automatic firearms in this way," they said, "These are, you know, military-style, assault-style weapons, and, and what counts as one is it means it's on this massive list," right?

[01:30:45] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:45] Noah Schwartz: Um, s- so yeah. I think, I think even if you're supportive of, of... Even if you're someone who's very supportive of strict gun regulation, you could see that this, the way that, that this has been done makes no sense. 

[01:30:55] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:30:56] Noah Schwartz: Um- 

[01:30:56] Travis Bader: It, it's funny how many people over the years I've run into, [01:31:00] educated people, lawyers, judges, mayors, MLAs, MPs, like, people that should have a good understanding of what's kinda going on saying, "Oh, you know, I got a couple of guns.

I just keep them under the bed. They're not hurting anybody, and maybe I should take this course and get my license." And, like, they look at it exactly for what it is. "I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm not a bad person. It's an inanimate object. It is sitting there," without even realizing the level of criminality that they're just talking about, and they're in a position of authority and knowledge and, and all the rest where you'd think that, you think they'd know.

And people in the gun community will come out, like, come flocking in like, "You can't do that. That's wrong. There's a rules that you gotta have in place." Yeah. But when it's become so complicated to understand the... It becomes illusory essentially when, uh, when it comes to enforcement 

[01:31:55] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. It, it, from a policy perspective- Yeah

it should be as easily, easy as possible [01:32:00] for a person with good intentions to follow the law. 

[01:32:03] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:03] Noah Schwartz: It should be clear and easy. And the way that the laws are written in Canada, it's really not. Even if we think about safe storage laws, the way that the laws are written leaves a lot of ambiguity. And, and you see if you look at firearms forums on the internet- Oh

there's, "Is this safe storage? Am I, am I storing this safely? Am I following the rules?" Right? Yeah. Whereas, like, if we just had clearer criteria, if it'd just been written in a way that, that was clear and easy to follow, the public would be safer- 

[01:32:27] Travis Bader: Yeah ... 

[01:32:28] Noah Schwartz: and firearms owners would be happy. I think conceptualizing the gun debate as this zero-sum equation where we need to hurt gun owners to make us safer, it's, it's, it's not correct.

We can do both, right? We c- we can make it, life easier and better for gun owners and make us safer- 

[01:32:44] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:32:44] Noah Schwartz: at the same time. But if we continue to view this through this polarized political lens, we lose out on those opportunities. 

[01:32:50] Travis Bader: You do. Yeah, I was, um... I put together an affidavit, like a few hundred-page affidavit for the, uh, 2020 OIC, and then [01:33:00] I was crossed on that one, and a lot of what I said was held and actually referenced by, um, the judge in the, uh, the proceedings, I think not because I'm such a smart guy, but it's just common sense stuff, and there's nothing said to oppose what I had to say in there.

But you look at the, um, y- you look at the information, like w- the reference I gave earlier about the, the 22 that's non-restricted, or you put a sh- shell around it, it's completely prohibited. They'd look at bore sizes over 20 millimeters and over 10,000 joules, and so you rely on SAAMI specifications, which is kind of the industry standard.

If you look at the government, what they put out, they just went and prohibited 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns, so they quickly make an, an amendment on the website which has nothing to do with- anything in law Mm But it, it just, it seems haphazardly kind of thrown together. Yeah. You, you talk about weapons.

Okay, so brass knuckles, they're named as a prohibited device. 

[01:33:55] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:33:56] Travis Bader: But a carabiner isn't. Yeah. And in fact, if you take scissors and you turn them [01:34:00] backwards, it isn't. Or if you get an Eskimo ulu, which is a big blade on the f- Yeah ... on the front, that's perfectly legal, right? 

[01:34:05] Noah Schwartz: Or a polymer, like, the, uh, there are companies in Canada that sell polymer brass knuckles, right?

Which can do a, you know, a considerable amount of harm to someone. But, but, you know, we, they're, they're, because they're made out of a different material, it's the same object and, yeah. 

[01:34:18] Travis Bader: Yeah. I think, um, it, does it say it has to be metal or does this has to be... Like, at, at some point- Yeah ... intent has to play a role in this.

Yeah. And I don't care what you pick up, if the intent is to do harm and you show that intent or verbalize that intent or whatever it is, that's- that's where the, I would think, the crime should start coming in. 

[01:34:36] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. 

[01:34:36] Travis Bader: Nunchucks. Okay, so I- Oh. Yeah. 

[01:34:39] Noah Schwartz: It was there. Go. 

[01:34:40] Travis Bader: I, I mean, what happens if you hit somebody with a stick and, uh, okay, that's okay.

But all of a sudden, if you tie them together with a string in the middle, that's not okay? Or if they break halfway through and it's, they're just kind of dangling and around like nunchucks, is that now prohibited? 

[01:34:54] Noah Schwartz: Blowguns. 

[01:34:55] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:34:56] Noah Schwartz: Blowg- I, I saw on YouTube this, you know, Nerfer saying, [01:35:00] showing people how to make a Nerf blowgun.

[01:35:01] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:02] Noah Schwartz: And somebody pointed out that that would be a prohibited weapon in Canada. Ah. 

[01:35:05] Travis Bader: Well, I 

[01:35:06] Noah Schwartz: think- You're, you're allowed to have a tube, and you're allowed to have a dart, but the second- That's true ... they're found next to each other, right? A- and this ambi- we c- we can laugh, but this ambiguity, first of all, can be used- 

[01:35:15] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

[01:35:15] Noah Schwartz: by law enforcement to maybe, if there's someone that they don't like and, and they find that there, they can do what's called charge stacking. 

[01:35:23] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[01:35:23] Noah Schwartz: Right? Where they use multiple charges to try to scare someone into, uh, into settling and, and, um, which y- yeah, I think you, you talked about being familiar with.

[01:35:32] Travis Bader: Um- Well, I, I mean, I've consulted on, for Crown and defense counsel at all levels of court, and on weapons related use of force and firearms related matters. It doesn't mean I'm an expert. You're an expert on that one small area if qualified, if the judge says, "Yeah, okay, I accept you as an expert." And then they'll say, "Okay, what weight do you ascribe to your expert status?"

Because maybe you're an expert, but they're like, "Yeah, you're a small expert or a big expert," right? But, um, [01:36:00] yeah, the, um, uh, the charge stacking is an interesting one, how quickly firearms charges disappear. 

[01:36:08] Noah Schwartz: Mm-hmm. 

[01:36:08] Travis Bader: You'll have a whole bunch of firearms charges thrown on in an offense, and those are the first ones to disappear, 'cause those are the hardest ones, I think, for Crown to, to actually, um, hold true.

[01:36:20] Noah Schwartz: Hmm. 

[01:36:20] Travis Bader: To actually push on through, 'cause there's so much gray area and ambiguity. 

[01:36:25] Noah Schwartz: Yeah. Yeah, a- and you know, there's a case I read from the '80s when I was doing this research of, uh, a young person walking down the street in Calgary in the '80s, and they had a spiked wristband. 

[01:36:35] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:36:35] Noah Schwartz: And spiked wristbands are prohibited weapons- 

[01:36:38] Travis Bader: Right

[01:36:38] Noah Schwartz: according to the criminal code, thanks to these changes that were made in the 1970s, also by ordering counsel. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, this, this young person now has a criminal record of possessing a prohibited weapon. He bought it in a shop in downtown Calgary. He thought he was being in compliance with the law, um, and, and found out that he wasn't through, through no fault of his own.

Mm-hmm. So things like this, they [01:37:00] seem sort of innocent to the public, and I think the public would say, "Well, why would anyone need nunchucks," right? That would be the line. Um, but when you stack these up and you start having all of these laws in the books, right, they're gonna affect people in, in ways that we can't always predict.

So it's, it's important to think carefully about these things. 

[01:37:15] Travis Bader: If a political science PhD student walked into your office tomorrow and they said they wanted to work on Canadian firearms policy- 

[01:37:22] Noah Schwartz: Hmm ... 

[01:37:23] Travis Bader: what would you tell them to read first, and what's the question you wish someone would tackle that you haven't gotten to yet?

[01:37:31] Noah Schwartz: That's a great question. I'd send them to read, uh, I think Gary Mauser's paper. I, I would have them read R. Blake Brown's book, just 'cause it's such a good, uh, a good historical primer, even if we don't always see eye to eye on policy issues. Um, you know, it, it's always sort of embarrassing, but I would probably have them read my book just because it's, you know, it, it's- Of course you should.

Well, yes, it's... I think it, it, you know, not to toot my own horn, but I think it's a- addressing a gap. 

[01:37:52] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:37:53] Noah Schwartz: Right? I don't, I don't... You know, I'm not gonna say it's a great book, but, uh, I think it addresses a gap, um, and, and it writes about a topic [01:38:00] that there hasn't been very much written about in Canadian ac- academia.

Um, so I think I would have them start with that, uh, and, and then get out there and then actually talk to people and do some interview research, uh, do some, like, participant observation and things like that, because I think that's such an important part of this issue. We have a lot of people talking about gun policy who have never, you know, either been through the process, uh, the regulatory process, or handled a firearm.

And to me, I think that's a shame, because if you're going to... I- it's, you know, it, it's like people who are... You think about in places historically which had the death penalty. You're willing to convict someone, but you're not willing to, to, you know, pull the lever that's, that's gonna hang them. Hmm. Right? I think you should...

I- if you wanna talk about regulation, you should put yourself through the regulation that, that people are, are, are having to go through. 

[01:38:48] Travis Bader: And is there a question that you'd wish someone would tackle that you haven't gotten to yet? 

[01:38:52] Noah Schwartz: Ooh. I, I- I'm, uh, I don't think so just 'cause there's, you know, there, I'm saving space for myself.

There's a [01:39:00] lot of projects that I wanna do. Uh- Gotcha ... you know, one thing I'm working on now, uh, is policy on suppressors, 'cause I think that's one of the big, one of those aha moments that I had during my research, because once again, I grew up watching Hollywood movies. I'm a huge James Bond fan and, and what do you see in James Bond?

Someone has a suppressor and the gun goes pew, pew, pew. Or what's happening in John Wick 2, right? He's having a firefight in a New York subway station with two suppressed handguns, and everyone's walking around like nothing's happening. 

[01:39:28] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:39:28] Noah Schwartz: So I think there's a lot of misconceptions about suppressors, uh, silencers, right, that the public has.

Um, and if you look at countries like New Zealand, where they're completely le- uh, legal and easy to have access to, countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden, where you're able to have easy access to them, um, they are good for people's hearing, and they reduce the negative externalities that come from hunting and, and target shooting, uh, and there's no negative public safety implications with them.

So I, that's something that I wanna start pushing on as well, 'cause I think it's something that we're [01:40:00] not talking about. 

[01:40:00] Travis Bader: I, I do think that there is legitimate public safety and, um, OH&S, occupational health and safety concerns that suppressors can solve. 

[01:40:12] Noah Schwartz: 100%. You would, you know, um, people often make the allusion between guns and cars, right?

Mm. You, you have a license to drive a car. Why don't you need a license to buy a gun? It's like an American talking point. Mm-hmm. Um, okay, if we're gonna regulate guns like cars, you know, uh, I... If you drive around without a muffler, you're gonna have a bad time. 

[01:40:28] Travis Bader: That's it. 

[01:40:28] Noah Schwartz: Right? That's 

[01:40:29] Travis Bader: it. So your keynote speech for the NFA.

Mm. You ended your keynote with, "The image of the Canadian cowboy need not be gunless. Rather, we can tell another story." If a young Canadian hunter, sports shooter, or collector is listening right now and feels like the ground is shifting under them, what story do you want them to carry forward? 

[01:40:52] Noah Schwartz: Yeah, that's a fantastic question.

I think, I think I would encourage them to, first of all, look to our history. [01:41:00] Canada has a rich history that people tend not to explore. Once again, we live next to the US. The US is way better at telling their own story than we are. There's, you know, way more... I, I, I was searching recently for a biography of John A.

Macdonald on my e-reader. Couldn't find one, or an audiobook. 

[01:41:15] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:41:16] Noah Schwartz: Right? 'Cause I wanted something that I could just l- put on in the car when I'm stuck in traffic. I couldn't find an audiobook- Huh ... that told the story of our, you know, our first prime minister's life, right? Huh. So I, I think look to Canada's history.

Do the research. Look into it. Find those stories. Carry them forward. And, and then think about the way that we wanna tell Canada's story going forward, and how you can do that in a way that asserts your, your place in it as a, you know, responsible- law-abiding firearms owner who wants to contribute positively to our community, um, who's probably already contributing positive to the, the community.

If you're involved in a shooting sports league, right? If you're a member at a range and you're con- you're a positive in- i- influence at your range, right? You're, you are f- part of a community, and you [01:42:00] are, are forming a community, and that's something that's very rare these days. We're, we're so divided by technology and, and, you know, most people aren't a member of a club.

[01:42:08] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:42:09] Noah Schwartz: So I, I think you should tell that story that you are a, a highly regulated person who's contributing to the social fabric of Canada, who's continuing that legacy of responsible firearms ownership, of hunting, of, of just enjoying the wilderness that is so a part of Canada's story. Um, a- and that you want to be someone who can contribute positively to the defense of our nation, and, and you should be allowed a space to do that.

[01:42:34] Travis Bader: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about? 

[01:42:38] Noah Schwartz: No, this is comprehensive. I'm looking at the time. We've been talking for two hours. 

[01:42:41] Travis Bader: We have 

[01:42:41] Noah Schwartz: been. I never get to talk this long. 

[01:42:43] Travis Bader: Noah, I really enjoyed this. Thanks. Thank you so much for making the trek out from Abbotsford, for showing up in the studio like this, and for sharing all of your knowledge and 

[01:42:54] Noah Schwartz: everything 

[01:43:00] that you've been working on.

I appreciate it. Thank you. It's such a pleasure. Thank you.