Silvercore ATC Masterclass with Rachel Ahtila

https://bio.site/rachelahtila

https://www.instagram.com/rachelahtila/

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: So today's podcast is pretty massive in the world of Canadian firearms. Insofar as we're talking about authorizations to carry for an A TC and a TC is something that's typically viewed as unobtainium, meaning it's almost aus the way that it's issued by the RCMP firearms program. But I've kind of templated pro.

[00:00:31] Travis Bader: And we've been successful since about 1994 onwards and been on the bleeding edge of every new authorization to carry recipient for wilderness carry, for work reasons. Every single time a new policy change has been made, or there's changes to regulations or legislation. I've always held this pretty close to my chest because I didn't want to jinx the process.

[00:00:59] Travis Bader: And everyone who came to us for the authorization to carry has always been somebody who needed it for work reasons. And it just made it streamlined and easy for them. I was put in touch with today's guest. She'd been working with the National Firearms Association for quite some time, and they were unsuccessful in getting her ATC when I got in touch with her in no time flat, she was issued her ATC, she met all the requirements.

[00:01:25] Travis Bader: It was just a matter of making sure you check the boxes in the proper way. I figured, and she figured that this is something that probably shouldn't be held close to the chest. This is something that if we. Let everybody know the process of how it goes through. It'll normalize it and make it far easier for other people in the future.

[00:01:46] Travis Bader: It also has an interesting side consequence, which is in Canada, there's a handgun freeze that's in effect where you can't purchase new handguns. However, if you need it for work reasons. That's one of the ways individuals can be issued a handgun. For this podcast, rather than doing it in the studio, I took it on the road and we went to a pretty cool place where actually, if you're watching this, we're inside a barn.

[00:02:14] Travis Bader: Luckily you don't see the floor of the barn. We needed to control our lighting in some way, but a pack rat had definitely taken up a home in this place and there was a mess everywhere, but. Hey, we braved it. We sat in there, we recorded the podcast. And I also combined this into a hunt. My wife and I went hunting.

[00:02:30] Travis Bader: It was a successful hunt. We've got meat in the freezer, had a great time. I use my Nanook pack for all of the camera gear that I took for traveling. I use my Nanook hard bow case for my bow. And the reason I bring that up is because Nanook is a Silvercore Club brand partner, one of many. You get 25 percent off if you're a Silvercore Club member when buying any Nanook product.

[00:02:53] Travis Bader: I like Nanook because they're Canadian made, they're robust, they're durable. They look really cool. It works well. If you've got expensive equipment and you want to make sure it's well protected, throw it in a case, rest assured. If you're not a Silvercore club member, I would highly recommend it. I mean, put aside all of the brand partners that we have and the amazing discounts that you get.

[00:03:15] Travis Bader: You also get free training, free online training, quite a number of Silvercore products. You got insurance North America wide. There's also that other interesting piece of the puzzle. That kind of goes along with this podcast here included free in every silver core club membership is the RCMP approved.

[00:03:36] Travis Bader: Gun club membership. So if you own restricted firearms and the RCMP requires you to show proof I'm belonging to a approved gun club or range, the civil court club is an RCMP approved club. Without further ado, let's get this podcast rolling. All right. This is going to be a fun one. I've been looking forward to this one for a while.

[00:03:58] Travis Bader: I'm sitting down with Canada's newest ATC authorization to carry recipient. I've been watching your social media for a while. We've been chatting back and forth for a long time. Love the adventures that you're on professional. Guide, professional trapper. Welcome to the Silvercorp podcast, Rachel Attila.

[00:04:21] Rachel Athila: Travis, thank you so much. Had some accolades there. I've got a lot to live up to. 

[00:04:26] Travis Bader: Man. Oh, there's more. I could go into more. Should I go into more? Um, this is, so I've talked about getting an ATC in the past on the podcast. I think what we're going to call this one, maybe just. ATC Masterclass, Authorization to Carry Masterclass.

[00:04:41] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[00:04:42] Travis Bader: So I've been doing this since about 1994. I got my first authorization to carry when I turned 18. That would be around, I don't know when that was, late nineties, mid nineties. And, uh, Every province in Canada is going to issue authorizations to transport a little bit differently. Over the years, they've worked at standardizing the process, but that said, there is no standard process for an ATC issuance.

[00:05:10] Travis Bader: We have had many, uh, professionals from different backgrounds who've gone through and they've tried to get their ATC on their own and they failed and they failed miserably. 

[00:05:20] Rachel Athila: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:05:21] Travis Bader: And the reason I'm told, I've been told this by a couple different firearms officers, is that, uh, they have a mandate to make getting an ATC difficult.

[00:05:30] Travis Bader: One firearms officer told me, he says, Oh, we don't want to have everybody running around willy nilly with a handgun on their hip. And I said, why not? I mean, really, what is it your concern if they are properly trained and properly licensed and they have a legitimate reason to be out there. 

[00:05:46] Rachel Athila: And jumped through the three ring circus.

[00:05:47] Rachel Athila: Cause let me tell you, it is not an easy process. 

[00:05:50] Travis Bader: Right. And that, I mean, holy crow, that's where I'm going to really love your fresh perspective and full disclosure. I've been doing this for a long time. Uh, we've got a 100 percent success rate for every week. Applicant who's come through, these are legitimate people with legitimate reasons to have it.

[00:06:07] Travis Bader: Um, a hundred percent success rate for anyone looking to be a trapper, looking, working in a remote wilderness area. They're working in 

[00:06:14] Rachel Athila: industries, 

[00:06:15] Travis Bader: working as armed guards. And I didn't want. To talk about it. I didn't want to tell people about it because I was concerned that this secret sauce that we've had for a very long time would get burnt out and people would stop getting it.

[00:06:30] Travis Bader: But in talking with you, um, I've come to the realization based in part on your, uh, your background and your assurances and your perspective as well. That we should normalize this process for everybody. 

[00:06:45] Rachel Athila: Well, I think Travis, that's, I mean, we've stalked each other through social media and I think that's where the grand conversation really came together because I almost made a plea and coming into, for people that don't know me, I've been a professional hunting guide for a decade and a half.

[00:06:59] Rachel Athila: Um, as well as I work remotely, you know, as a trapper now, also as a rancher, and I've had several professions in oil and gas as well, you know, that, You, in Canada, we are 99. 9 percent rural for a lot of our jobs and you get across, you know, up from the 49th parallel. But when I originally thought, you know, I would love to be able to carry a pistol years ago, there was no answers.

[00:07:22] Rachel Athila: No one would help me. And so it was very serendipitous that we crossed paths when I made a plea last year. And I'm really excited to dive into this with you because there are people out there that, for life saving matters, This could actually make a difference. And I know for myself as a professional guide, I wish my only regret is I wish I would have done this as soon as I had got my restricted license.

[00:07:45] Rachel Athila: The amount of times where carrying a pistol on your person, having interactions with wildlife, taking care of clients, you know, now even working so remotely in the winter on a trapline, um, and even here on a cattle ranch in the remote part of British Columbia, there are so many instances that, uh, you know, If anything, as we dive into this podcast, I really hope people take away this.

[00:08:06] Rachel Athila: This isn't a fast track. This isn't cheating off a test. This is giving you the tools for the people that this actually qualifies for. And I think that's one thing, like you said, you didn't want to debunk it and, and make it so it's like, Oh, this is the easy way to go and get a test guys. It's like, if you're dedicated and you're truly passionate about this as a tool, This is a podcast for you.

[00:08:26] Travis Bader: A thousand percent, but it begs a question. And I think I know the answer. Why didn't you apply after getting your restricted license right off the bat? 

[00:08:36] Rachel Athila: The biggest thing, I hit roadblocks. I would try and go to different gun ranges and I would be blocked. They'd be like, Oh, it's too hard. Or there's, you know, there's a test and, and no one wanted to offer the test.

[00:08:47] Rachel Athila: So I literally started going to every single range when I would travel through and I got nowhere. I, I, at the time I, I literally was a gypsy, I had a pimped out storage locker. And so part of having restricted firearm, as you know, is you have to have a place of residence, you know, you have to have, that's where your home address is, a locked safe.

[00:09:06] Rachel Athila: You have to have all the prerequisites. So part of the reason I didn't pursue it earlier is I didn't have a fixed address, but as I matured, you know, settled down my gypsy ways a little bit, I started to go, okay, you know what? I wanted to pursue this. So at the end of 2018, 2019, when I was wrapping up in the territories, I started going down the rabbit hole a little bit more and I correct me as I'm wrong.

[00:09:28] Rachel Athila: I obviously, you know, this comes from my firsthand knowledge, what I had been told Was I'm a BC resident, wanting to travel to the Northwest Territories, traveling through the restrictions. At one time I had been told that I would need to be certified in BC. I would have to travel through the Yukon on a special ATC permit, go to the Northwest Territories, jump through a bunch of hoops, but that BC and the NWT work together.

[00:09:52] Rachel Athila: Albert and the NWT and BC and the Yukon. So I, I started having this convoluted story that it was like, wow, this is like chasing a unicorn. I have no idea how to go about this. 

[00:10:02] Travis Bader: One thing I think I should probably make very clear it off the bat and I can't speak for you. So I'll ask you this. Have you had legal training, professional legal training, gone to school or you pass a bar test?

[00:10:12] Travis Bader: You're, you're not a lawyer. I'm 

[00:10:13] Rachel Athila: not a lawyer. No. 

[00:10:15] Travis Bader: I have not had professional legal training. I'm not a lawyer. So everything that you and I are talking about here is going to be from our experience. We have had legal training in certain areas, but not as. Professional lawyers, so we are not qualified to give legal advice.

[00:10:31] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[00:10:32] Travis Bader: So I think that's an important thing to get off the, off the go. Um, and I should probably throw in the word allegedly in front of this podcast, because I'm going to make references and you might as well to things that, uh, have been relayed to you that you've heard. And so we'll just throw a big, an allegedly over the entire podcast.

[00:10:51] Rachel Athila: These are two people that are just trying to help everyone else. And exactly. Allegedly, this is what have happened. Great. By no means, I hope it's easier for everyone else. 

[00:10:59] Travis Bader: A hundred percent. Well, um, okay. So you brought up a couple of interesting things. You talked about, uh, traveling from British Columbia, Northwest Territories.

[00:11:09] Travis Bader: Uh, so in the firearms act, they talk about geographical extent and your possession and acquisition license is going to have a geographical extent. Across Canada, uh, different authorizations that are issued are going to be done provincially. So an authorization to transport an authorization to carry, these are going to be provincial things that are set forth.

[00:11:29] Travis Bader: They are written down in the firearms act and the firearms act regulations, but on top of that, the different provincial bodies that we've got opt in and opt out provinces. So some will say, ah, we're going to do our own thing. We're a province and we're going to do our own Take care of things ourselves.

[00:11:46] Travis Bader: Others will say, no, we're going to fall under the broader federal RCMP firearms program, and we're going to work with them. So we've got opt in and opt out provinces. Um, they will make policy. So. We have legislation, we've got regulations, we've got policy that we're dealing with. And this is just somebody who's a civil servant working in their office, trying to come up with the best process that they can.

[00:12:13] Travis Bader: And then we've got the last piece of the puzzle, which is going to be those civil servants trying to understand that policy and apply it to those regulations in the framework of the legislation. And there's going to be personalities that you have to deal with too. So. This I'm hoping is going to give experiences that I've seen, that you've seen that kind of encompany the company, that kind of encompass, that kind of encompass all of them.

[00:12:38] Travis Bader: Yeah. And I think that's an important way to kind of frame this. If somebody is listening to this and they want to go through and get their ATC, Just because I'm right, doesn't mean I'm going to get it. 

[00:12:48] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[00:12:49] Travis Bader: Just because I meet the laws doesn't mean I'll get it because I might not meet the policy.

[00:12:53] Travis Bader: The policy isn't a law and you could argue that up and down and it might just be the personality that you're dealing with as well. It's unfortunate, but that's, that's, that's life. That's how it works. 

[00:13:04] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[00:13:05] Travis Bader: So you talked about geographical extent and there was something else that you brought up that was kind of clicked in the back of my head as you're talking and, um, um, it'll come to me as we go through, I'm sure.

[00:13:17] Travis Bader: So, 

[00:13:18] Rachel Athila: might've been, um, where I was geographically at home, as far as like, that's it. There you go. 

[00:13:23] Travis Bader: Okay. A hundred percent. See, I'm glad you're sharp. 

[00:13:27] Rachel Athila: I had two cups of coffee this morning. We're perking right along. 

[00:13:30] Travis Bader: I love it. So, uh, home, you said, I didn't have a home address. 

[00:13:34] Rachel Athila: And a lot of guides don't. A lot of people don't.

[00:13:36] Rachel Athila: A lot of people don't. We're, especially in North America and Northwest, we're transient, we're chasing jobs. So that for me, I would love for you to help explain that because there's a lot of people I think that speaks to. 

[00:13:48] Travis Bader: And there's a lot of people that don't actually have, let's say a mailing address, right?

[00:13:52] Travis Bader: There's going to be people who live on reservations and they're going to have different. Uh, they say, well, my, my house is a fifth one down past the big, big, uh, tree or whatever it might be. And this is me talking to the firearms officers and having gone through this in the past, um, I remember there was a, a fellow, uh, passed on a long time ago, uh, he had Lou Gehrig's disease, I think ALS there.

[00:14:16] Travis Bader: Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, Mike Gallon and they called, he had a gun shop back in the day called Mike's musket shop and multimillionaire, really interesting fellow. He was the one that, uh, when you're talking with my wife earlier about, uh, staying in the place with all the rats. So multimillionaire left all of his money, uh, to his wife and his kid and made himself a cinder block hut out in Lillooet where the Bridge River and the Ellicott River meet.

[00:14:43] Travis Bader: And his mailing address at that time was all to a post office box and I was helping him out there for a while. So while I was there, my mailing address was out at a post office box. This isn't an uncommon situation, right? There's people who will not have a physical location and there's going to be people who don't necessarily store firearms at their residence, they store it at a gun shop, they store it at their, The business and my business might have a business firearms license.

[00:15:12] Travis Bader: So you don't actually have to have a fixed address in order to have restricted firearms. 

[00:15:17] Rachel Athila: Really? 

[00:15:18] Travis Bader: Really. And 

[00:15:19] Rachel Athila: there's a mic drop. 

[00:15:20] Travis Bader: Yeah. So that was kind of an interesting one that I've learned. I know that a lot of people say, well, I remember I went through this one too with the chief firearms officer and, uh, Uh, going back and forth and specifically on the fixed address, um, uh, requirement.

[00:15:39] Travis Bader: Cause they said, no, you need it, you need it, you need it. And finally, after about, uh, close to a year later, uh, our chief firearms officer was able to come back and say, here's where we get our legal authority. I had to go to the parliamentary records and there's this, uh, thing called the order prescribing forms and, Documents or something along these lines, because we ask for it on this form, that's where we get our legal authority.

[00:16:04] Travis Bader: And I say, that doesn't make any sense to me. Right. It's supposed to be, it's on this form because there's a legal requirement for it. Not, we put it on the form. It passed all the scrutiny to be on the form. And now that's what we're leaning on for our legal. Uh, our legal standing. So, 

[00:16:19] Rachel Athila: so take home from that.

[00:16:20] Rachel Athila: If you're a guide, if you're a transient, if you're a worker, you, you can actually move forward on this. A 

[00:16:25] Travis Bader: hundred percent. You can't, you don't have to have. 

[00:16:27] Rachel Athila: That's a big thing for me that I was told because I didn't have, and like I said, Allegedly, I was told because I didn't meet certain requirements, you know, and doing due diligence, I didn't want to, you know, leave a firearm in a safe at, you know, whosoever address I was most common to go to.

[00:16:44] Rachel Athila: Right. Because I was trying to do the right thing. Right. Well, as long 

[00:16:47] Travis Bader: as you're the one with the Control over that firearm, right? You can. With a 

[00:16:50] Rachel Athila: lock to the safe, which I had and everything else. So there you go. 

[00:16:54] Travis Bader: And when you think about it, like my first ATC was for a number of car company I was working for.

[00:16:59] Travis Bader: I didn't own the firearm. They all belonged to the company. I go there, I pick up the gun, load it up, holster the thing, go do my work, come back, unload it, leave it there. So there's going to be situations where people have them stored either under a business license or under their own individual license, but storage is not allowed.

[00:17:16] Travis Bader: Doesn't, as long as the firearms program has an understanding of where they are, cause that part is actually written out in the law. Uh, they have to know where, where the guns are, so you just let them know. 

[00:17:26] Rachel Athila: Yeah, absolutely. There you go. That's a big thing for myself. That was, 

[00:17:30] Travis Bader: that 

[00:17:31] Rachel Athila: was probably one of the biggest hindering moments, um, was I didn't know if I qualified.

[00:17:35] Rachel Athila: And, and again, I couldn't find a very staunch answer for it, a yes or a no. So it wasn't until 2020, I had the opportunity to partner with Sig Sauer right before COVID. So all of a sudden, all of my ambitions and dreams to be able to have a pistol, uh, started to come true. Unfortunately, the world shut down.

[00:17:57] Rachel Athila: I was supposed to be in transit going to Arizona for, um, six to eight months on a work permit. So I was going to have my pistols down there. 

[00:18:04] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:18:05] Rachel Athila: So unfortunately, you know, COVID happened. Um, And then for the listeners that might not know, in Canada in 2022, it became part of legislation that we were going to have a pistol freeze or handgun freeze.

[00:18:18] Rachel Athila: And so I had been scrambling because in my head, I still thought I have to have a permanent address. I didn't belong to a gun range. I didn't, I mean, I had a horse trailer and a truck and I was working calving jobs and guiding jobs. So I let a lot of my preconceived notions. Drive the fact that I couldn't go after securing those pistols to get them moved here to Canada.

[00:18:38] Travis Bader: Interesting. 

[00:18:39] Rachel Athila: So. 

[00:18:40] Travis Bader: Yeah. And honestly, I think that's, your story isn't unique out of all the people that I've worked with, I hear it time and time again. Oh, you can't do it cause. Right. And they've got all these different reasons. You can't do it cause, or I heard my buddy and they said, it's essentially illusory.

[00:18:56] Travis Bader: If a law is so far out of reach and it's so, uh, unobtainable that it's deemed to be illusory, then it can be struck down or it can come under review again, not a lawyer, but there's, there's a legal process for all of that. Um, so my hope and our hope, your hope through doing this is that we take that illusory aspect to all of this and we put it into a bit more of a concrete.

[00:19:22] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. So check one, you don't have to have your permanent fixed address as getting your ATC. And I think that's a big step moving forward. Had I known that years ago? 

[00:19:32] Travis Bader: You would have had it. So the other interesting thing that people need to understand, and a firearms officer took me aside and told me this, it says, look at Travis, we've got a mandate to scrutinize ATC applicants really, really carefully and to deny as many as possible.

[00:19:52] Travis Bader: We don't want to be issuing this. We don't want people going out. This is our mandate. This is what we've been told. Um, whether that's true or not, or just something, this firearms officer took me aside and was blowing smoke, who knows. Right. But if that's true, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of that statement, that there is an internal mandate to not issue them, then people have to understand, okay, if I'm approaching this, I have to Understand how this game is going to be played, how we're going to play ball together so that whoever it is that has their name that has to stamp off and say, they're giving it to you can be a, provided all of the assurances that they're, uh, doing things properly and they can go back to their boss and say, I had to cause the law said ABC and I put up my points and my objections and note, this person's a legitimate candidate and they should get it.

[00:20:43] Travis Bader: So, um, How you talk and deal with that civil servant. If you have offhand comments or jokes and, uh, they'll get rid of it. It's 

[00:20:53] Rachel Athila: very much a work interview. In my experience, you know, uh, I was very thankful to cross paths with you because I was able to bounce ideas and, and just even certain the way that I phrase things, you know, um, People have to take this with seriousness.

[00:21:08] Rachel Athila: You are asking to carry a pistol on your hip. I mean, in the States, you can go and buy one and you have it home in half an hour. Here in Canada, we've had legislation that has been abolished in the past. You do, it is a life saving tool, but it is also, you know, a weapon. And I think people, you know, I, my biggest fear is that people are going to take this podcast and go, well, I'm just going to go apply for it.

[00:21:30] Rachel Athila: But like you say, you have to be serious in your intent. You can not come across as flippant. You can not come across as this is just, you know, a means to an end to carry a pistol to feel like John Wayne for the weekend. Right? Well, 

[00:21:43] Travis Bader: that's it. Well, and it's funny that in the States, like I talked to Brad Brooks, he owns our galley and he says, I can't believe you guys aren't afforded the ability to go hunting with a bow and have a handgun for protection against bear, right?

[00:21:57] Travis Bader: And like in their world, this is, It's just completely out, the launch is ridiculous. Right. And in our world, it's like, Oh, a handgun. That's that's extra dangerous. It's that's extra scary. And really it's, there's no difference between your handgun and your rifle, except the bullet doesn't travel as fast. It doesn't travel as far.

[00:22:13] Travis Bader: It doesn't do as much damage. It's just, just smaller, 

[00:22:16] Rachel Athila: but it's been criminalized in Canada, pistols. And, you know, restricted rifles are criminalized. I remember the first time I touched a pistol when I went to the States, it was like the forbidden fruit. And I literally, I literally sat back and I was like, you're just gonna have to pretend like I don't know what I'm doing with this.

[00:22:31] Rachel Athila: And then the people I was with, I said, run me through everything. Because in Canada, and I hunt, I guide, I have been around weapons a long time, but even my own prejudice on the pistol was everything that we had been taught. So I think a lot of it is stepping away from this prejudice that we put on this tool.

[00:22:50] Rachel Athila: Like you said, it is still a projectile that comes out of a shorter, smaller, more compact firearm. 

[00:22:59] Travis Bader: And you brought up a good point there too, cause you called it a weapon and gun people like, it's not a weapon, it's a firearm, right? Well, actually in Canada, if you look at the law, a weapon is what it's anything used, designed to be used, intended to be used to cause, uh, death or serious bodily, grievous bodily harm to another individual or used to intimidate or threaten those things.

[00:23:21] Travis Bader: And I'm paraphrasing the lie. I've actually got it here, but I'll paraphrase it and without precluding the generality of the foregoing includes. A 

[00:23:30] Rachel Athila: firearm, 

[00:23:31] Travis Bader: right? And then a firearm could also just be the frame or receiver of it. So in Canada. Guns are legally considered weapons. 

[00:23:39] Rachel Athila: Exactly. 

[00:23:39] Travis Bader: So that, that's part of the idea and framework that we're also looking at when we go through this is if you come from the United States and you're like, I just want this thing to protect my life and laws say they're here.

[00:23:49] Travis Bader: You're going to be treated as an individual who's looking for protection. So, let's take a look, I've got a couple, before I get into it, did you want to say anything before I? 

[00:24:01] Rachel Athila: No, I think like that's a, I think this is a really great precursor because, you know, we have to identify one, the major thing as gun owners, we have to have a registered address because years ago we had to be able to register all our firearms, you know, there's been different legislation that's moved through over the last, you However many years, however far we want to go back, everything seems to change.

[00:24:20] Rachel Athila: So I think it's important to people to know that if they work in this industry or an industry that's relatable, you can own one as long as you obviously are solely responsible for where it's locked, where it's kept, you know, speak to that. If I've misrepresented that. Yeah. 

[00:24:35] Travis Bader: No, you can own it. Yeah. 

[00:24:36] Rachel Athila: And two, obviously this has to be taken seriously because this is, you know, a life saving device.

[00:24:42] Rachel Athila: It is a tool. Um, A very handy tool at that. And I think that sets the stage as we jump into it. Beautiful. Let's find out who can carry these. 

[00:24:51] Travis Bader: Okay. So we've got the laws, these laws, you guys could download them. You look on online, these under the regulations, circumstances in which an individual needs. And they put the word needs.

[00:25:01] Travis Bader: So that's an important one. Restricted firearms or prohibited handguns for the purpose of section 20 of the act. And so restricted firearms, generally we're talking about handguns in Canada, but there are other restricted long guns, prohibited handguns, it, uh, lays out those are going to be what 32 and 25 caliber.

[00:25:21] Travis Bader: Maybe, maybe not depends what you're using them for, but they will fall in the prohibited handgun area, uh, 105 millimeter or less. Barrel length. Uh, when I first was carrying a gun around, it had an under 105 millimeters, so it was a prohibited. 

[00:25:36] Rachel Athila: That's prohibited. Yeah. 

[00:25:37] Travis Bader: Prohibited handgun. Yeah. So I'll read through some of the laws.

[00:25:40] Travis Bader: I won't go through all of them, but I'll just, I think it's important that we just kind of look at the words as we go through. We'll, Brush on the first one, for the purpose of Section 20 of the Act, the circumstances of which an individual needs restricted firearms or prohibited handguns to protect the life of that individual or other individuals are where, A, the life of that individual or other individuals is in imminent danger from one or more other individuals.

[00:26:09] Travis Bader: Imminent danger. Being the key word, like, okay, right now, not like going a year from now, imminent. B, police protection is not sufficient in the circumstances and C, the possession of a restricted firearm or prohibited handgun can reasonably be justified for protecting the individual or other individual, individuals from death or grievous bodily harm.

[00:26:32] Travis Bader: Okay. So we know what death is. Grievous bodily harm. Do you know what that is? 

[00:26:36] Rachel Athila: Grievous bodily harm, I would imagine if someone's intending you harm, um, you're putting yourself into a situation where you are unarmed. 

[00:26:44] Travis Bader: So the courts have generally, from what I've seen, again, not legal advice, but they've looked at grievous bodily harm as being something that's, let's say broken bones, uh, major disfigurement.

[00:26:56] Travis Bader: So your amputations, uh, would be a form of grievous bodily harm. Someone's going to try and break your bone. They say, okay, that's, I can defend my life because we don't know where this is going to stop. Um, unconsciousness would be one of them would be considered grievous bodily harm. So if you're getting choked unconscious and that happened, um, to you.

[00:27:14] Travis Bader: Here a number of years ago, um, uh, it was in the newspapers, I think it was a hockey, uh, it was a hockey player or a hockey game. Someone had a few too many drinks and ended up, um, shot by the police, uh, in police custody. And they said, well, this person was trying to choke the officer unconscious. And that constitutes, 

[00:27:34] Rachel Athila: um, Grievous bodily harm.

[00:27:35] Travis Bader: Grievous bodily harm, uh, severe cuts. So these are going to be, uh, Yeah, slashing 

[00:27:40] Rachel Athila: with harm to intent. Right. 

[00:27:42] Travis Bader: So that's generally kind of what grievous bodily harm kind of looks at. So I think it's good that people look at the framework. The number of people who actually get an ATC issued for this are slim to none.

[00:27:56] Travis Bader: So 

[00:27:56] Rachel Athila: what's, what, what industry would that be then? 

[00:27:59] Travis Bader: So. What I've heard anecdotally, um, and we do work all across Canada, um, deal with different police agencies. What I've heard allegedly, this is going to be, let's say a judge is dealing with, uh, organized crime. There's a verified threat and, um, they say, well, here you go, here's something, make sure you protect yourself.

[00:28:23] Travis Bader: Right. Uh, the times I've heard that happen, they've just given the individual. A firearm or the person had a firearm. This is sure not a problem. You can pack it. Despite the fact that if we read further, they say you've got to have proper training. You don't have these things, but if you think about it, if someone's an imminent.

[00:28:40] Travis Bader: Do we have time to be able to give that training and all that vetting? So this is one that I don't have the most experience with aside from working with, I remember a gun store back in the day, there was concern over being robbed and there's, it's happened at other gun stores. There's one in the, in British Columbia, this is going back a bit, but, um, uh, robbery, I believe the, uh, the owners were both killed in this one.

[00:29:06] Travis Bader: Um, and so anyways, this gun store owner looked at it and says, I'm dealing in an industry. It's the criminal element. It's desirable for them to be around here. I want to be able to protect myself. So they went through, they did the training. We went, met all of the different points and the firearms officer came back and said, and it was, it was a game.

[00:29:25] Travis Bader: It was go home, pack it forth. Like we don't want to issue it, but we can't really say no. And they, it was kind of like a funny, aha, I think we've got you here. Right. They said, we will issue. Your ATC for what you've requested, because you've met all of the requirements, uh, save one, we just need you to give us a letter from the chief of police saying that police protection is not adequate for you.

[00:29:52] Travis Bader: What chief of police is going to write off and say, police protection isn't adequate. And the reality is what's that old saying when seconds count, the police are minutes away. Like we need, we need the, if you need the police right now, 

[00:30:04] Rachel Athila: and 

[00:30:05] Travis Bader: there is a threat on your life. 

[00:30:06] Rachel Athila: Well, they can't be everywhere.

[00:30:07] Rachel Athila: They 

[00:30:07] Travis Bader: can't, unless, unless they just happen to be in the store at the same time. But, uh, they came back after as they said, well, I got to hand it to you. You've come the closest to getting issued one of these that we've seen under your circumstances. Anyways, that, that was sort of my experience on that one, as well as the, all the anecdotal of, uh, judges or people that are being given one hastily because they need one and then immediately after that threat's no longer there, it's revoked.

[00:30:37] Rachel Athila: Gotcha. So short term, temporary. Yeah, 

[00:30:40] Travis Bader: that's it. Yeah. So there's only, if there's an imminent threat. Um, next one is where you fall in, and this is the one where we've had a hundred percent success rate with everyone that we've worked with lawful profession or occupation for the purposes of section 20 of the act, the circumstances in which an individual needs restricted firearms or prohibited handguns for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation.

[00:31:06] Travis Bader: or occupation, or where a, the individual's principal activity is the handling, transportation, or protection of cash, negotiable instruments, or other goods of substantial value, and firearms are required for the purposes of protecting his or her life, or the lives of other individuals in the course of that handling, transportation, or protection.

[00:31:28] Travis Bader: Or protection activity. So that's an armored car guard essentially. So they're going to get one, their principal primary activity is transport of cash or negotiables. Interesting ones that we've seen that have been issued under there would be, um, A guy had a stamp business and he's transporting stamps back and forth.

[00:31:48] Rachel Athila: Oh, really? Yeah. 

[00:31:49] Travis Bader: And that was a, considered a, uh, negotiable instrument or other goods of substantial value. I've heard of, um, I've seen them for marijuana transport, for 

[00:32:03] Rachel Athila: I mean, we are in BC. We are in BC. 

[00:32:07] Travis Bader: Um, And for transporting of firearms, if that's where you're transporting them back and forth and they're issued one for that.

[00:32:14] Travis Bader: So there's a whole bunch of use cases and it's pretty wide open. Basically, if an individual wants that license, uh, their principal activity. That they're going to say is handling, transporting, or protecting of cash, negotiable instruments, or other goods of substantial value. And the important one in all of that is again, isn't there to protect the cash or the negotiable instruments or goods of substantial value.

[00:32:40] Rachel Athila: It's to protect the person. 

[00:32:41] Travis Bader: That's it. It's only there to protect life. Someone says, give me all your money or I'm going to kill you. Here's the money. 

[00:32:48] Rachel Athila: Yep. 

[00:32:49] Travis Bader: There it is. It's easy, right? 

[00:32:51] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. It's, 

[00:32:52] Travis Bader: Then they would want to take that next step and they're going to put your life in the threat of death or grievous bodily harm.

[00:32:57] Travis Bader: That's when you start getting into the justifiable use of that firearm and the use case for that firearm. That goes into a whole different discussion on use of force and probably goes. And probably 

[00:33:08] Rachel Athila: negotiations and everything else. But I think that's a very important way of actually depicting that is that in that situation, you're They're going to try not to use the firearm.

[00:33:17] Rachel Athila: You're going to use justifiable cause to say, you know what? Here's what, here's a token you're after, take it. 

[00:33:23] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:33:24] Rachel Athila: I think that's the biggest thing is that you, just because you have your permit and your pistol doesn't mean you necessarily always want to use it. You don't want to be flying off the handle.

[00:33:31] Rachel Athila: So that's where it comes into the rationale and the mindset behind it. I think it's hugely important when people are taking into this as consideration. 

[00:33:39] Travis Bader: What do they say, if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? 

[00:33:44] Rachel Athila: I, I mean, I haven't heard that one in a while, but that, I think that just definitely falls in suit.

[00:33:49] Travis Bader: Right. Oh, I got my gun. There you go. Now, where do I use it? Here I go. 

[00:33:53] Rachel Athila: Start looking like Yosemite Sam. 

[00:33:54] Travis Bader: That's right. So, uh, It's interesting, that mindset, because like in the States, um, they've got, uh. Shoot 

[00:34:03] Rachel Athila: first, ask questions later. 

[00:34:05] Travis Bader: Well, in some States, right? They, but, but they also have, um, what, why is it slipping me right now?

[00:34:11] Travis Bader: I've got one. It's, um, uh, your carry permit, your, um, CCW, concealed carry. And, right. And, and some are going to be non concealed. Some States, they have to have them concealed. Like in Washington, if you break concealment, you're having a problem. But. You know, they get people young, macho, got my CCW and the, I'm going to be the hero.

[00:34:32] Travis Bader: I can jump in. I can help the cops out now. Right. And there's a bank robbery happening. Just here I go. And they emphasize to a very high degree, like, no, that that's not your role. Right. Something's going on. You don't interject yourself into danger. You leave. If danger finds you. 

[00:34:51] Rachel Athila: You protect yourself. You 

[00:34:52] Travis Bader: have that to protect yourself.

[00:34:53] Travis Bader: And there's, that's what you're saying. A very, uh, good point for people to understand. And when you're training people, you can train people to the point that they're just rabid dogs and they're ready to pull the trigger on anything that moves or, uh, That they're so intimidated based on the laws that they just, they don't draw the firearm in situations where they should.

[00:35:14] Travis Bader: So in the trainings world, finding that healthy balance where a person uses it in a justifiable way as they should is, is important, um, to protect their life and also knowing where that, the law stands when we get into trapping and working in remote wilderness areas, the same thing applies. It's not a two legged predator that you're worried about here.

[00:35:36] Travis Bader: It's now four legged. And there are times when, okay, you're allowed to use it when you should, but it shouldn't be your first resort that you're going to just cause you got the gun. 

[00:35:46] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[00:35:48] Travis Bader: Okay. Um, here we go. Now we're getting right into the territory you're going to be comfortable in too. The individual is working in a remote wilderness area and firearms are required for the protection of the life of that individual or other individuals from wild animals.

[00:36:05] Travis Bader: Or, the individual is engaged in the occupation of trapping in a province and is licensed or authorized and trained as required by the laws of that province. You're both of those. 

[00:36:16] Rachel Athila: I am. 

[00:36:16] Travis Bader: You're one of those unique people that have both of them. 

[00:36:19] Rachel Athila: Both, absolutely. And let me tell you, my God, did it feel good when I had both permits come to my door.

[00:36:26] Travis Bader: How long did it take? That was one of the Instagram questions. How long did that take you? 

[00:36:30] Rachel Athila: Four years. Four 

[00:36:32] Travis Bader: years. 

[00:36:33] Rachel Athila: But I had a little bit of special circumstance because obviously I had to get pistols. We had a handgun freeze. I, my preconceived notion that I couldn't have it unless I had a permanent address.

[00:36:44] Rachel Athila: I kind of did the classic textbook, tried to be good, but realized in being so good that I actually was hindering myself. 

[00:36:50] Travis Bader: So 

[00:36:51] Rachel Athila: from the time that I actually got the pistols here in Canada, it's been from my submission date for my application. I hate to say it, but it was actually pretty quick. And thanks to Travis here, I actually was able to get through it because I, I had to learn a lot of why I was going after it.

[00:37:08] Rachel Athila: Not, not only because, you know, obviously I wanted it for personal protection, but trying to help illuminate that for the greater audience. And, and that's the thing that, In the four year process, I feel like it was a pilgrimage, but it has also made me appreciate them as a tool. It has also made me furious with the current freezes that people are not able to acquire them for a tool, for a life saving device.

[00:37:34] Rachel Athila: And, and my biggest conquest now is I want people to know that they can, you are empowered to find the right tools to make your job safer. Everyone wants to go home at the end of the day. I love what I do. Truly, it's been the love of my life and I love taking people on adventure, but a great deal of my entire career has making sure that they make it home safe.

[00:37:56] Rachel Athila: And so when I'm taking people into the back country, putting them on a horse, riding through the buck brush, you know, hunting game, we're putting ourselves in the perfect storm, touch wood, that you hopefully never have to deal with. But there are so many people that do have encounters and I just, it is my greatest hope that people can take this information.

[00:38:16] Rachel Athila: And apply it to their own lives so that they don't have themselves caught with their pants down, so to speak, you know, and they have the tools to make their job safer at the end of the day. 

[00:38:26] Travis Bader: Once we started working together, how, how long was it? 

[00:38:31] Rachel Athila: So I submitted my application in December. 

[00:38:34] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:38:34] Rachel Athila: Um, that's a two part answer as well, because I didn't have the right information and I know we talked about that.

[00:38:42] Rachel Athila: So from, I submitted it in December, I didn't mail it in. I electronically sent it, that was the ticket because I also was coming into my first trapping season. So December, I officially got my paperwork, uh, the beginning of May. So, you know, six months, six, seven months. Problem is, is I originally submitted my application for, um, requesting the ATC without having done the actual test.

[00:39:11] Rachel Athila: Um, the, or the proficiency program. Because there was grey areas in the legislation, and this is just my own opinion, but there, there wasn't a consistent line saying go ahead and do your proof of proficiency, send in your application, um, correct me, uh, it's the 5493 or whatever form it is that you send in the application for the permit.

[00:39:35] Travis Bader: Mm hmm. 

[00:39:37] Rachel Athila: You actually, I was told that this permit was at a standstill because I didn't have the rest of it. 

[00:39:43] Travis Bader: It's, and it's going to take a person going through these things to think very carefully as they fill it out and to read things carefully and to question. Um, so that it's clear in their mind, if they're dealing with a firearms officer or a civil servant, and they say, well, you need this first, or you need that first.

[00:40:02] Travis Bader: Yeah. And just say, okay, not a problem. Right. 

[00:40:05] Rachel Athila: Exactly. I 

[00:40:06] Travis Bader: have no problem complying with whatever the requirements or policy are. 

[00:40:09] Rachel Athila: Yep. 

[00:40:10] Travis Bader: But can you give that to me in writing? So I make sure that I've got some sort of paper trail. 

[00:40:14] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. I'm just trying to reference it here, but yes, there was, that was, I think the biggest hangup for myself.

[00:40:19] Rachel Athila: Here it is. What is this form here? The form that in question is the 5491E. So that is the authorization, the application for the authorization to carry restricted firearms and prohibited handguns. So I was in a bit of a special scenario. Because I'm very excited and honored to work with SIG Sauer. I had two pistols that were a part of my package that were meant to come to myself.

[00:40:43] Rachel Athila: I had my restricted license, you know, obviously I could take them to and from the gun range here in Canada, but I wanted to go after the ATC, but because I, so where, where my mix up is, Travis, if we're going to dive into that is not only did I have these two pistols. They were under a company at the time.

[00:41:03] Rachel Athila: So my big hangup is that I was training with pistols. Once I finally got them to my address, which took three years, um, is that because they're registered under the address to get your ATC, you have to prove proficient on the pistol that you hope to then have your ATC acquired to. So I started jumping through all of these rabbit holes to train, and that's where I thought I had to have that first application done to be able to transport them to and from.

[00:41:31] Rachel Athila: Lawfully and legally, you know, um, to go after my 

[00:41:35] Travis Bader: ATC, 

[00:41:36] Rachel Athila: you know, yes, online, you can do your, um, your online portal. You go through and you have your authorization to carry or transport. Sorry. So to go to, and from your gun range, you have to call it in, submit it that way when you have restricted. My problem was, is that the, they weren't registered to me.

[00:41:51] Rachel Athila: So I ran into hiccups. I, I was able to work under a business license because I am an ambassador for a mutual company. So I was able to kind of circumvent and go another route to be able to train. But in this, I, I had all of these little claw hooks that kept coming in that looked like they were blocking me.

[00:42:10] Travis Bader: And I think one of the difficult parts that you had was he had a firearms officer who was More than happy to help out, but you know, they've got a job, they go in every day. They're not going to lay their job out on the line to do you with some sort of special favor. They want to make sure their I's are dotted and their T's are crossed.

[00:42:26] Travis Bader: And it's a lot of times when people are applying, particularly for an authorization to carry, this is new ground for a firearms officer. Absolutely. They're going to have the exact same sort of, I don't know, but I was told that you have to do this. And I was told, and that's where this podcast will hopefully create a bit more.

[00:42:47] Rachel Athila: So I think like stepping back to, if I were, or sorry, so when we talk about timeline, it was November where I actually submitted that, uh, 5491E. 

[00:42:59] Travis Bader: Mm hmm. 

[00:43:00] Rachel Athila: I heard crickets. So I finally, I started calling the CFO of British Columbia and I said, look, this is the program I've submitted to. They said, well, I'm You know, have you actually done your proof of proficiency?

[00:43:10] Travis Bader: And I 

[00:43:10] Rachel Athila: was like, well, no, because it looks like I have to submit this application before I jumped through this hoop. And I think that was right around the time in November that we started communicating back and forth. And you're like, well, I think you can go ahead and do this. I know you can. So that's where in my timeline, because I didn't, I didn't have a rule book saying X, Y, Z, this is how you get to the formula and say your alphabet.

[00:43:31] Rachel Athila: And once I had submitted that. I then went right ahead and I started practicing at the range and therein lied another problem because I found out that the registration of my one particular firearm that I was going after and challenging for my trapper's application was actually misregistered. It was misregistered as a prohibited, even though I had a very heated conversation, 

[00:43:58] Travis Bader: not 

[00:43:58] Rachel Athila: heated on my behalf, but I was scared witless because I thought I was in app, I thought I was in contention and here I had been traveling to and from under a business license.

[00:44:08] Rachel Athila: I had pictures of it and I, I had measured it. 

[00:44:11] Travis Bader: But when 

[00:44:12] Rachel Athila: I was caught off guard away from my pistol, driving to Prince George, you know, they're saying, you, you have a firearm, like hell's bells and whistles are coming down. 

[00:44:21] Travis Bader: And 

[00:44:21] Rachel Athila: I remember calling you in tears and I was like, I, I I'm screwed. I'm never going to get it.

[00:44:25] Travis Bader: I remember trying to talk you off that ledge. 

[00:44:27] Rachel Athila: There was a ledge and I was hanging on by a branch. 

[00:44:30] Travis Bader: And I said, they're wrong. They're wrong. Right. 

[00:44:34] Rachel Athila: You did. 

[00:44:34] Travis Bader: Uh, You have nothing to worry about. Make sure you cover your butt with paper, essentially. Um, but it's prohibited. Right. But you're under a business license and a business license is licensed for prohibited and you're properly listed in the same way that I carried a prohibited firearm for a few years there working for an armored car company.

[00:44:52] Travis Bader: Yep. You were doing the exact same thing. And then we dug a little bit deeper and said, 

[00:44:57] Rachel Athila: can you 

[00:44:58] Travis Bader: get the tape measure out? Can we see if this guy's actually prohibited or not? And it's interesting because, uh, sometimes I can see in myself, I'll have a bit of an oppositional approach when dealing with, um, a firearms officer who I, in my mind, or any sort of person who's in a regulatory position.

[00:45:18] Travis Bader: And in my mind, I'm like, they don't know what they're talking about, right? They're wrong. Right. Yeah. And there's, it always comes back to my head. There's a, um, old poem called the stop sign. His way was right. His will was strong. He's just as dead as if he was wrong. Right. Okay. The guy's like, Oh, the other one's, other car's got a stop sign.

[00:45:36] Travis Bader: I got the right away. Doesn't look like you're going to stop, but nope, that signs, I got all the rules on my side, just because you're right. This person was right. He was dead right. Right. Just because you're right, doesn't mean that's a way to approach it. So that's where that personality part comes in because the firearms officer dealing with this may or may not have known all of those different points.

[00:45:56] Travis Bader: Yes. I don't think that firearms officer wanted to see you made into a criminal, wants to make sure that they're assisting you because they're a regulatory body. Their job really is to help you. Bring people into compliance. 

[00:46:08] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[00:46:09] Travis Bader: That's their job. 

[00:46:10] Rachel Athila: And I think that was a very big turning point for me, because obviously I said, you know, sir, with all due respect, I don't believe I do, but let me, I'm on the road right now.

[00:46:20] Rachel Athila: Let me get home. And how can I contact you? Because obviously I want to make this right. I could have flown off the handle and been like throwing people under the bus, but, and, you know, I ended up having a relationship, like a good friendship over this, where, you In a business sense, where I was like, look, I am, I'm trying to do this to the best of my ability.

[00:46:37] Rachel Athila: There are so many gray areas here. What do I need to do and show and, and help because this is something I'm very passionate about. I am working by myself. I live extremely remotely, you know, I, I also, the other part was is that I was challenging a higher caliber because I have a caliber that's in between for dispatching wildlife.

[00:46:58] Rachel Athila: It's a 22 caliber for protection of life on your trapper's permit. It has to be a 40 cal or like a 10 mil. I'm at a nine mil and they do have the authorization if in due cause. To help, you know, make that, uh, restricted effort go forward. 

[00:47:15] Travis Bader: And we'll talk about that a bit as we go through too. And I think, um, so go way back on how long does it take?

[00:47:24] Travis Bader: So we have an idea of what it takes for you for getting the, uh, uh, the permit. The fastest I've seen it is under 24 hours. 

[00:47:30] Rachel Athila: Wow. I was not 24 hours. 

[00:47:32] Travis Bader: Right. So that's the fastest. And, uh, every time you, uh, apply for your ATC, it's the exact same process when you reapply. However, when you reapply, it's easier for the human to look at this and say, well, they've been approved before.

[00:47:47] Travis Bader: They met all the same criteria as they did the first time. Here we go. Right. And less things that change on our end, I am now obliged to give them that, uh, that approval. So that brings me to, uh, one piece of the puzzle that you mentioned there, which was you're being told to do something and where old me many years back, it'd be like, no, you're wrong.

[00:48:09] Travis Bader: Here's the act. Here's the regulations. Right. And I remember sitting at a, uh, computer and I had a, um, A friend of mine, he's a retired analyst for a large company and he did strategy for them. And we're having a conversation and I think he's in his eighties right now. And he says, Oh, hold on a second. I hammer something on the email and get back to the conversation.

[00:48:31] Travis Bader: He says, Travis, can I ask you what was so important that you interrupt our, our conversation? To send an email and then get back to it. I said, Oh yeah, the, you know, fire's program. They said, A, B, and C, and I'm showing them that they're wrong. I just copied and pasted the act and showed them. And he says, how's that working out for you?

[00:48:48] Travis Bader: I said, honestly, not super great. Right. He says. When you're dealing with anybody, any civil servant, any person, why don't you ask them questions? Why don't you put them into a corner, but give them a door that they can get out of. Right? So rather than saying, no, you're wrong cause, right? Ask a question to say like what you did there was perfect.

[00:49:11] Travis Bader: I think I'm right. Because the only extra thing that I would say is cover your butt in paper, not a problem. I think I'm right, but I will do what you're saying. Can you give it to me in writing in an email? So I have a copy of that. So as I proceed forward, or if I'm dealing with somebody else, they know that I'm doing things.

[00:49:29] Travis Bader: Yes. In a way that's, uh, proper. And that does two things that protects you as you're working through. But when we talked about how every single license is issued as if it's brand new, that systemizes the process. I met it last time. How do I not meet it this time? Right. If you do the exact same thing. 

[00:49:48] Rachel Athila: And it shows your level of professionalism as well.

[00:49:50] Rachel Athila: And I think that was one of the biggest parts, um, like where I kind of took matters into my own hands and sent that email saying, you know, I had a good tagline upcoming trapping season, you know, urgent request. And it was, um, it was very imminent. I am out here by myself. Uh, and then. Obviously I was able to start a feed of conversation because like you said, everything had a trail.

[00:50:15] Rachel Athila: I could back it up. I could also ask the questions that weren't being answered or if I wasn't understanding, that's another part is you can ask questions, you can get an answer, but if you still aren't understanding, there's no harm in saying, could you please elaborate? 

[00:50:31] Travis Bader: I don't understand. 

[00:50:31] Rachel Athila: Exactly. And, and that was something that I think moving forward on all of the extra training I've done through my other industry programs.

[00:50:39] Rachel Athila: You know, it helps. Oh my gosh, it helps. 

[00:50:43] Travis Bader: I like that. I don't understand because quite often people will say, nope, this is how it's done. You got to do this. 

[00:50:49] Rachel Athila: I 

[00:50:50] Travis Bader: don't understand. Well, let me explain it to you. Oh, hold on a second. Yeah. I don't understand either. I see where you're going, right? Because in the same process, people will think, well, this is how it's always been done.

[00:51:02] Travis Bader: Here's how we do it moving forward. Maybe not. Right. And just like when I queried our chief firearms officer, he A hundred percent. You got to do it like this. I don't know. I don't understand. Can you show me? Right. Took a year. Oh, it's because of this obscure document that only certain people have access to and it's in the form prescribing.

[00:51:21] Travis Bader: Okay. Well, that sounds kind of wishy washy, but I get it. I was able to get what I was looking for anyways, in the end, because. I don't need to make the person look like a fool. I can paint them in a corner and give them that door to get out. That's not a problem, but I don't need to rub it in their face.

[00:51:40] Travis Bader: And I, and I see that often with, uh, when people get frustrated, I've seen it because I work in the firearms community. When people in the firearms community get frustrated, like you can't do that to me and you can't do this. Yeah. You might be right, but is that helping you? Is that getting you to where you need to go?

[00:51:55] Rachel Athila: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's the biggest thing, you know, when you, Is understanding, you know, there is a process to it if whatever industry you find yourself in, whether you're trapping forestry, you know, some of the other remote sectors, if you're, there's bear monitors out there, they, they use shotguns and slugs, but, you know, for personal protection.

[00:52:16] Travis Bader: Um, who 

[00:52:16] Rachel Athila: knows, uh, the opportunities might be endless as guides, you know, remote ranching. Um, the biggest thing that I wish I would have known, what process and what applications go first, how can a person, what is the formula 

[00:52:32] Travis Bader: for 

[00:52:32] Rachel Athila: success? I mean, obviously, and like you say, it comes, success can be measured in a very different ways and it does come down to the civil servant that you're working for.

[00:52:40] Rachel Athila: And it also comes down to how you answer the questions and that's where it leads into, you know, If you're, if you're getting set up for this, do I meet the requirements? You know, one, do I have a pistol I can train with or one that's my own, or perhaps I can get access to, two, what's my next step? What application do I need to do first?

[00:53:02] Rachel Athila: So given that I went and did the first application for the submission, not necessarily the right application first. So leaning on you and every program that you've helped with. 

[00:53:13] Travis Bader: Well, why don't we take a look at it here? We've got, we've got two different forms here. And one is a form called a chief firearms officer of British Columbia and Yukon proof of firearms proficiency for trapping.

[00:53:28] Travis Bader: The other one is all the same, but it says proof of proficiency for the protection of life in remote wilderness areas. Now, this is British Columbia, but they have been trying to standardize it. And if one province does it, it's easy for another province to say. Well, I'm not reinventing the wheel. They've done it.

[00:53:46] Travis Bader: They've paved the way. Why don't we lean on them? And it causes them to have to come up with Uh, something extra, something above and beyond if they're going to issue a denial. And we'll talk about denials probably at the end of this. Which one do you want to talk about first, trapping or working in the remote wilderness area?

[00:54:03] Rachel Athila: Oh, you know what I let's, let's start with trapping because I think wilderness appeals to a lot of people, but trapping is, is a, is a There's a kind of a relic to it. It's not something that's done or practiced in a lot of traditional, I mean, my own nephews were like, Andy, trapping died in the 1800s with the fur trade.

[00:54:20] Rachel Athila: And I was kind of like, well, boys. 

[00:54:22] Travis Bader: We're bringing it 

[00:54:23] Rachel Athila: back. We're bringing 

[00:54:25] Travis Bader: it back. So. These are very similar in approach. So we'll go through trapping first and we'll just put the differences once we go into the, uh, protection of life. So 

[00:54:36] Rachel Athila: should we preface this? This is what you should be doing if you're going after the trapping.

[00:54:41] Rachel Athila: We've already assessed that you want to be able to shoot, so you should probably have access to a gun that you're going to prove proficient on the appropriate calibers. And the next is, you know, Um, you've met the requirements cause you are, you have your trapper's license, especially for trapping. You have to have your trapper's license.

[00:54:58] Rachel Athila: With a trapper's license, you have to be registered to a trap line. That helps move it forward. 

[00:55:05] Travis Bader: That can help. Yes. That 

[00:55:06] Rachel Athila: can help. Also private property, permission on your own, elsewhere. So those are the major things you have to show that you are actively engaged with the opportunity to participate as a trapper professionally.

[00:55:18] Travis Bader: Yes. And I think the key word in all of that is working. 

[00:55:21] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[00:55:21] Travis Bader: Because that's one that kept coming up when I deal with the Firearms Program. Cause I said, well, what about working on your cabin? I'm working on a new roof. I'm working on the fence. Right. Which is 

[00:55:32] Rachel Athila: all things to get ready for the season. You, as a trapper, it is a year round activity.

[00:55:37] Travis Bader: Right. So as long as that's. Applies to a occupation, lawful profession or occupation. That doesn't mean it's your full time occupation. That doesn't even mean it has to be like half the time occupation. 

[00:55:51] Rachel Athila: But it's your occupation. 

[00:55:52] Travis Bader: But it's an occupation. So that's something that's going to hopefully at some day, Bring money in, maybe not, maybe it costs you a bunch of money.

[00:56:00] Travis Bader: There's a lot of occupations like that. Right? So there's a few. Right. Um, it says a proof of proficiency, and this is going to be a qualification course, a shooting course, uh, must be administered by an individual who holds a valid possession and acquisition license, PAL, for restricted firearms at the time of the administration.

[00:56:21] Travis Bader: And who has their own, uh, Either a range safety officer or a member of an approved shooting range executive, or is an instructor for a recognized firearms course or discipline. Holy crow. That's everybody. 

[00:56:36] Rachel Athila: That's everybody. 

[00:56:37] Travis Bader: Right? Absolutely. I'm a range officer. 

[00:56:39] Rachel Athila: Well, that's what people don't understand. You and I both go to the range.

[00:56:42] Rachel Athila: One of us has to be the range officer. That's right. So 

[00:56:45] Travis Bader: if they don't have a designated one. Exactly. If they don't 

[00:56:47] Rachel Athila: have a designated one on staff. Now there is a point in there where it does say you do have to have your restricted license. 

[00:56:52] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:56:53] Rachel Athila: So that is a key component because when you hand in your submission, they will look up that individual and their firearms license, and if they don't, they will deny you.

[00:57:02] Travis Bader: One thing I should point out and who knows. Or could deny 

[00:57:06] Rachel Athila: you, I should preface, could deny you. 

[00:57:08] Travis Bader: Yeah, I think we should use. Allegedly. Allegedly. We should use that language, could, because right now what we're reading off of is a document that was created by a firearms officer, probably working and trying to put everything together in a more systemized way.

[00:57:24] Travis Bader: This isn't, I have gone contrary to everything on this document at one point or another, because there are special use cases, uh, that, that need to be looked at. Just because it says it in this policy doesn't necessarily mean that's it for you. If you want to get approved in that under 24 hour timeframe, like I was mentioning before, just go the easy route.

[00:57:45] Travis Bader: You got your policy, no problem. I mean, just, just do the work and go through it. 

[00:57:50] Rachel Athila: One of the things I will note though, um, and this is on the front page for the actual authorization to carry questionnaire. Um, sorry, do you want to pause? So one of the big things too, is that when you're looking at your different, whether you, obviously you have to be a trapper for the trappers ATC or the wilderness carry.

[00:58:08] Rachel Athila: So what I found with the trapping one, and this is read right off the The application here is that please note this application is for the licensed trapper to request authorization to carry a restricted fire harm or prohibited handgun solely for the purpose of humanely dispatching trapped animals, solely.

[00:58:27] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:58:28] Rachel Athila: If you wish to request authorization to carry a restricted firearm or prohibited handgun for the purpose of protecting your life from predatory animals while working in remote wilderness areas, you must request a package for the remote wilderness areas. 

[00:58:43] Travis Bader: Beautiful. I'm glad you brought that up. 

[00:58:44] Rachel Athila: So.

[00:58:45] Rachel Athila: That's one of the things that people have to be very cognizant of, because when you look at that, it's a smaller caliber as poor, you know, this application. Right. You can challenge it, but predominantly, I mean, as a trapper, you want to shoot a smaller caliber with your intended catch. How many times as a trapper have I learned your intending catch might not always be What you had hoped for.

[00:59:11] Travis Bader: Yeah. We were talking about that right before we accessed the core. So anyways, 

[00:59:14] Rachel Athila: I just wanted to preface that because I think there's a lot that goes into that, um, because they are two very different applications. 

[00:59:20] Travis Bader: So. I like that. Uh, under firearms, this is a firearm used during the proof of proficiency and we're going to call it a POP because they call it a POP and it's easier than me saying that over and over again, must be the same firearm the applicant intends to use for dispatching animals and traps.

[00:59:38] Travis Bader: Okay. That makes sense. If you're going to qualify, qualify in the gun you're going to use. It makes a lot of sense. Is that always the way that is done when they issue ATCs? Armor car guards don't shoot their same gun that they carry. They might get a different gun every day if they're a casual worker. So, uh, probably the same make and model, probably, maybe, maybe not necessarily.

[01:00:00] Rachel Athila: And I'm going to give you a hot tip for all the listeners listening, right now, especially here in Canada, once you prove qualified for your ATC, you have the ability to purchase two firearms. That was shared with me by a CFO, allegedly. 

[01:00:17] Travis Bader: Allegedly. 

[01:00:18] Rachel Athila: So I, like, I don't know, but that's like, and this is just in conversation, whether you want to add it or not.

[01:00:24] Rachel Athila: Um, that was something that was shared to me by a CFO, because it's Legally, if you go through, say you're, say you have a make and model that you are going to be proving proficient on that, you know, we're at the gun range, um, and shooting, that's where there's such a gray area is that for people that don't have pistols right now, that's the biggest question I've had.

[01:00:46] Rachel Athila: I don't have a pistol. How can I go and do my trapper's course for my ATC or my wilderness? I fit all the requirements except for I'm still on the waiting list at Cora Lanes because the freeze came in and not enough pistols came to Canada. 

[01:01:00] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:01:01] Rachel Athila: So what I'm trying to find out and what I've, my biggest request is how can those people train on a pistol?

[01:01:10] Travis Bader: So Canada can't just deny you the ability to protect your life.

[01:01:21] Travis Bader: Well, let's, let's look at how I, how I framed that one, allegedly, allegedly. Right. Um, if you need to protect your life and there is a legal method for you to do so. Mm hmm. They can't turn around and make that whole process illusory, because something happens to you and you've gone through this whole process and let's say you're mauled by a bear and you could have perfect protected yourself and defended yourself.

[01:01:47] Travis Bader: It's going to come back on that office and that civil servant. So there, there needs to be ways for them to protect themselves. And one of them is businesses could still get firearms. Right. Um, individuals who are working, who need them. There's, there's still provisions for this. It's not well thought out.

[01:02:05] Travis Bader: It's not the act and the regulations and the way that the, uh, OACs have been written, aren't the best thought out. So it leaves people scrambling in the firearms program to try and figure out how to interpret it. And sometimes the easiest way is I'll just stick my head in the sand, right? But you push, you make sure those who can, who should get it, can get it.

[01:02:26] Travis Bader: So the a hundred percent, that's, that's staying in. 

[01:02:30] Rachel Athila: Yeah. So I, and I think that's something that people should know is just because they don't have a pistol right now, doesn't mean that you can't. Prove proficient, pass the course, and then pursue an avenue to try and acquire the appropriate firearm.

[01:02:43] Rachel Athila: That's right. 

[01:02:44] Travis Bader: Um, an applicant can only apply for a maximum of two firearms to be listed on their authorization to carry ATC in a period of POP must be completed for each firearm. So they put that into there. They say two guns, really, when you get your, uh, authorization to carry, uh, they could put whatever they want in the conditions.

[01:03:05] Travis Bader: Go on. Yeah. 

[01:03:06] Rachel Athila: So that's, well, the other thing too, is that you have, you can apply for the two guns, but you are only lawfully allowed to carry one at a time. That is a major thing. You can get props, proof of proficiency for two, but at any one time while performing your duty, you are only holstered with one firearm.

[01:03:26] Travis Bader: That's right. That's yes. And I always have a difficult time when they say you can only, You can always, cause I've seen so many exceptions to the rule and when a chief arms officer can put in, uh, conditions that tighten it down, they can also put conditions that'll make it wider, make the usage case wider.

[01:03:51] Travis Bader: So just cause we see it written here, doesn't necessarily mean that this is the way that's done, but we'll go through, this is the happy path. 

[01:03:58] Rachel Athila: This is the happy path. Absolutely. 

[01:04:00] Travis Bader: Um, the maximum caliber accepted for dispatching or trapping animals is 22 caliber rimfire, unless special dispensation is sought from the office of the chief firearms officer.

[01:04:13] Rachel Athila: Hello. Hello. So given the fact that obviously I acquired these two pistols on the nine millimeter and the 10 millimeter, and there's a handgun freeze, I couldn't go and purchase. A 22 caliber. Now there have been instances, there was a bear attack in Alaska where an officer was able to dispatch a black bear with a nine millimeter.

[01:04:34] Rachel Athila: It is a lethal killing caliber for protection of life. It is also a small enough caliber that it can be used to dispatch intended catch. So in my special circumstance, I actually challenged it and I proved proficient. With my nine millimeter. And when I had my interview, I just said, look, I understand. I'm asking for a caliber higher than the actual amount.

[01:04:58] Rachel Athila: Unfortunately, due to the requirements at the time and the freeze that's in, in act, I am unable to acquire a different caliber. This one is proficient X, Y, and Z. I would like to move this application. 

[01:05:11] Travis Bader: And they said, not a problem. That's right. 

[01:05:13] Rachel Athila: Because I was able to give a cognizant, thoughtful answer.

[01:05:19] Travis Bader: Interesting. Recent one, I've just read about a grizzly bear taken down with an eye millimeter as well. You know, modern advances in ammunition and bullet construction have come a long way. Absolutely. And the whole idea. Of the ballistics behind these, uh, rounds. This one's a, this one's a bear stopper. This one isn't, this one's a that, right?

[01:05:39] Travis Bader: Shot placement is obviously important. 

[01:05:41] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[01:05:42] Travis Bader: But we'll talk about that a little bit more in the other one about calibers and energy and, and the rest, but, um. 

[01:05:48] Rachel Athila: Well, and to me, to be honest, one of the big things that I brought home is that, you know, if I'm only allowed to carry one caliber. Where I'm out here working remotely on a snow machine, and I've got my traps and I have my bucket of my lures and everything else.

[01:06:02] Rachel Athila: If I have an intended catch and it's an animal of, you know, predatory, there could be wolves, there could be anything moving in. So not only am I putting myself in danger by checking my intended catch, whether it's the great catch or it's something else, heaven forbid, I don't want to be in there with a 22 caliber.

[01:06:20] Travis Bader: No, absolutely not. No. And you are, you're the prime candidate for wolf food or bear food. You're covered in scent. Oh, you've got catch with you. 

[01:06:31] Rachel Athila: You want to see me walk on snowshoes? It is not a fast or a pretty thing, neither. I would be, I'm wolf bait, man. 

[01:06:37] Travis Bader: A hundred percent. Um, Holsters, holsters must be designed to be worn on a belt around the waist.

[01:06:42] Travis Bader: So they're saying no shoulder holsters, cross drawn, um, actually it doesn't say nothing about cross draw. 

[01:06:49] Rachel Athila: When you talk to them, they say no cross draws, even though some of the CFOs I've talked to, it is a proficient way of carrying. Um, their biggest thing is that when you go to draw, there's an opportunity where you, your barrel control.

[01:07:03] Rachel Athila: Right. When you're out there with all your 

[01:07:05] Travis Bader: other friends trapping, right? 

[01:07:06] Rachel Athila: Yeah, exactly. All my other friends. 

[01:07:07] Travis Bader: So, um, Yeah, the, you in the crowded areas with the, a lot of the thinking behind this falls back on police training. Yes. And police training doesn't apply here, but it's a framework that was put in place a long time ago.

[01:07:21] Travis Bader: And the firearms officers may be either ex police, current police, or exposed to police, and there's a proclivity towards wanting to, uh, be drawn to what you know. We do what we've done in the past. So it takes a little bit to move that mindset to something else, but it's not an immovable mountain. 

[01:07:45] Rachel Athila: The other thing too, is when they talk about a holster is it has to have a level of retention.

[01:07:49] Travis Bader: Right. So we're going to just go a little further and say outside of the clothing and have at least one strap with a snap closure that retains a firearm securely in the holster. You don't want a bucket holster. You don't want something that plops in and then you're on your snowmobile and you need to use your firearm and you look back and where is the thing, right?

[01:08:10] Travis Bader: They, they need some level of retention. 

[01:08:13] Rachel Athila: It actually doesn't say snap retention when you look online. 

[01:08:16] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:08:16] Rachel Athila: So that's one thing, cause I, in, in my holster quest, and this is, you know, side note for everyone that's interested, you have to make sure one that, not all holsters are the same. That's one thing I've learned.

[01:08:27] Rachel Athila: It's a very new shopping experience. Um, but your level of retention, basically what they're looking for is it has to, the rifle or the firearm itself can't easily slide in and out. You have to forcibly pull and it has to make sure that the trigger guard Is in fact fully encompassing. 

[01:08:44] Travis Bader: So it says the holster must be designed to completely cover the trigger.

[01:08:48] Travis Bader: A holster and holster retention device should be used during the proof of proficiency. Oh, there it is. Shoulder and cross draw holsters are not permitted. Well, again, this is a policy. This is a piece of paperwork. So. Uh, there are going to be instances where maybe you want that. For me personally, I don't want a pancake holster, meaning one that flattens out.

[01:09:08] Travis Bader: I want one that's going to hold its shape. Kydex does a good job at doing that so that I can get it back into the holster. I mean, um, um, police definitely want to have something like that so they can get it back in quickly the second the gun's no longer needed. In a, uh, wilderness environment, you can have all the time in the world, but with bulky clothing and cold.

[01:09:29] Rachel Athila: You cold, wet, heat, anything like that. You have to think of a wet leather, you know, you're trying to ramrod a firearm in and out. I've had scabbards that freeze up on me with my long rifles. Right. So that's something to be very cognizant of, you know, when choosing the appropriate holster. 

[01:09:46] Travis Bader: So, and then some form of retention, something to hold it in place.

[01:09:50] Travis Bader: Um, What I tend to go for, um, is something, I'm not a big fan of the, uh, the thigh holsters, the, uh, the drop leg holsters, right? I just find hiking around, running, the thing just starts working its way around. Really, the only reason you want that is so you can get a backpack on or a repel harness or something that will go where your belt line is.

[01:10:13] Travis Bader: So what I do. do is just find something that'll drop it an inch, inch and a half down below the belt line and hold it on my, on my belt. That way I can still get my pack on and everything else holds it secure. I find that to be the best. Um, interesting when they talk about, uh, to, to, to, to, to. We're talking about holsters, did we talk about concealment yet?

[01:10:37] Rachel Athila: Uh, we just touched on it. So that's the biggest thing is that you have to make sure that that firearm is exposed the entire time. So that's, when you think about big puffy winter jackets and snow pants, I mean, you almost have to have another belt loop outside. 

[01:10:50] Travis Bader: Well, that's an interesting one. So a law firm called me in to opine on an issue where an individual had a trap line and he was charged with having a concealed firearm.

[01:11:03] Travis Bader: So I guess somebody saw him out there with his handgun. Uh, they called the police, called the CO, CO's called the police, please come up. The guy's like, well, you got a gun? He's like, oh yeah, it's right here, right? And he's, he's motioning and they looking through his vehicle. They can't find it. And I don't see it.

[01:11:19] Travis Bader: What are you talking about? No, no here. Like, I don't want to grab for it, but it was on his hip and he had a jacket over top of it. Couldn't be seen. And I said, well, what, what's concealment? Like there's the actual act of concealing something, right? Where you can't see it, but he's in charge of concealment.

[01:11:36] Travis Bader: Did he intend to have it concealed? Like it was really light freezing rain out. He had a revolver, you got freezing rain, even, I mean, I'm certified with Smith and Wesson since my teenage years to work on their, uh, firearms and their revolvers. Yeah. They're robust, they work well, they're designed to work well, but I know areas where if you get a pine needle in it, they won't work right.

[01:12:00] Travis Bader: Just a little bit. So, uh, maybe having that covered up as a smart idea, if he wants a gun to work. Anyways, it came down and there's a whole bunch of case law on it. And I got some of it on my, my phone here, but FALACA was one of the ones that comes to mind, uh, intent has to play a role in concealment if you're intending to conceal it, because I was saying, well, you know, If you stand up behind a tree, it's concealed.

[01:12:23] Travis Bader: Did he intend to conceal this firearm? Right. If his jacket falls over top of a clump of snow falls on, whatever it might be. If he's carrying some, all of his trap game over his shoulder, right? Does he have a concealed firearm? If I 

[01:12:34] Rachel Athila: have it when I'm carrying my Martin boxes, am I concealing? These are all things you have to be cognizant of.

[01:12:41] Rachel Athila: Obviously, I mean, unless you're going to run into CO on the trail, it's like the first thing you do anyways, just say, Hey, this is who I am. I just need you to know, I'm I have my ATC, it has, it's holstered on my hip. I look like a gorilla, like, you know what I mean? So, but then again, it comes back to that communication, like you said.

[01:13:01] Rachel Athila: So when it comes to holstering, I mean, obviously. If you run into someone, God forbid, I think he did the right thing, in my opinion, let them know it's here, it's, I have no intention, but my jacket might've fallen down and if I, they mistake me for trying to lift it up over my hip, then the next thing you know, they're going to draw.

[01:13:18] Travis Bader: That's right. They don't want to see that. Yeah. Falaka was an interesting one. I think he got on a SkyTrain and a bus, so he had a 22 all wrapped up and, uh, came coming back from the range and someone was like, Oh, that's cool. What do you got there? He's like, Oh, I'm going to go on a shooting spree, he says.

[01:13:32] Travis Bader: And the judge says, well, that was a pretty immature statement to make. He's like, uh, but that and about eight other, I think, case law come in and they say there needs to be an intent in order for concealment to be a charge. Uh, and there are times you're going to want to have that firearm protected. I mean, case in point that the ones that you just mentioned.

[01:13:52] Travis Bader: Um, Anything else you want to say on holsters? 

[01:13:55] Rachel Athila: No, I think just the biggest thing is just, you know, it's one of those things that you're going to do your best in the field and actively I'm always checking my holster, you know? And I think that's one thing like, cause it will come up in conversation when you go through this process, what happens if, you know, your jacket falls down?

[01:14:11] Rachel Athila: Well, I'm going to immediately try and, you know, make sure that I'm wearing the right clothing. I'm also going to try not to free stuff on the trapline, but you know, it's, it's trying to communicate all of these steps that we're talking about because. While we're having this conversation going through this application process, if anyone can have a takeaway, it's just, it's a real human conversation.

[01:14:32] Travis Bader: You 

[01:14:32] Rachel Athila: are doing the best of your intentions. You are trying to make your weapon present. You're having the right holster that fits your body type. It fits your activity, branches happen, carrying things happen. Just learn how to communicate, I think is my biggest thing as we move through this application.

[01:14:47] Travis Bader: Yeah. Uh, it's, there, there's a dichotomy between communicating. With a rational, normal individual in a rational way. Yes. And there's severe protectionism, right? Which can find you on the wrong side of, uh, an interaction because you're doing everything right. And you're being so protective and you just come across as like, what's this person's problem.

[01:15:09] Travis Bader: Right. And then the other side says you're having a normal conversation. Like you would with any normal individual to find out you're not talking to a normal individual, that individual just wants to sewer you. So there, there is that difficult dichotomy that people have to go through. So that's where this normalization process helps.

[01:15:28] Travis Bader: Um, it's talks about targets. This is steel targets are not permitted. Okay. Fair enough. Um, that's what this document says. Assessment. The applicant must fire six rounds from each distance, i. e. three meters and five meters. 

[01:15:41] Rachel Athila: Yep. 

[01:15:43] Travis Bader: You're close. You're dispatching an animal. They just want to read your head. You do 

[01:15:45] Rachel Athila: have to have it within a certain, um, diameter as well.

[01:15:49] Rachel Athila: Um, so that is something to, to really think. So the radius. And the special notes, just to follow up on that, um, the radius draw on the paper target has to be two inches. So they are looking for competency and that's why obviously you can't have a metal target because when you're standing three meters away, bullet fragments.

[01:16:07] Rachel Athila: I mean, obviously on the range, hopefully you're wearing your proper PPE, you're wearing your eyeglasses, you know, so is a range officer. Um, if you're downrange, you're wearing a vest, you know, you've got your flag. I know that's one for our range here, but. The biggest thing is obviously communicating this with the person you're testing with, if they've never tested before, or perhaps, you know, just showing your level of competence and understanding.

[01:16:29] Travis Bader: And having, uh, steel targets, like, like you say, at that distance. Fragmentation, ricochets, hopefully not ricochets, hopefully you're using a hard enough steel and all the rest, but all of that comes, they do have guidelines that the firearms program has made for that. Easy to, uh, fall on. Tintina gun range, they were in the Yukon.

[01:16:50] Travis Bader: I was called in by another law firm to opine on that one with a steel target, a ricochet that happened on that one. And somebody got hit with the ricochet damage on the face and everyone becomes litigious, but that was, that was a Uh, a little bit, little different story, but talking about steel, um, scoring, um, here it is.

[01:17:11] Travis Bader: Administrator must indicate the number of hits for each shooting distance. A hit is awarded when a round lands on the designated scoring area of the target. The designated scoring area, like Rachel said, is defined as being a circle with a radius of two inches or five centimeters. So they want to make sure if we're dispatching some little animal, you can actually do it.

[01:17:32] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[01:17:33] Travis Bader: Uh, The applicant must achieve 10 hits for every 12 rounds fired. So that's about an 83 percent success rate that they're looking for from the applicant. Now, you know, back in the day, they didn't have this. They didn't have this proficiency. They had, Oh, you got to use pie plates. Or they had, they had all these different ideas and little by little, they're kind of honing it down and getting it finer, but it's still.

[01:17:54] Travis Bader: Policy. 

[01:17:55] Rachel Athila: And let me tell you, if you haven't shot in a while, you get rusty. And I think this is something that a lot of people are like, oh yeah, you go and shoot. It's like, no. 

[01:18:02] Travis Bader: No, it's a perishable skill. Exactly. It is 

[01:18:04] Rachel Athila: a perishable skill. And a lot of it too, comes down to your range behaviors and mannerisms, which I'm sure we're about to dive into here.

[01:18:11] Rachel Athila: Tell me. Cause it's not so much just shooting, you know, you are under a timed amount, um, which I believe it is 20 seconds. 

[01:18:19] Travis Bader: For this one? Uh, did they give you a time to mount on this one? 

[01:18:23] Rachel Athila: I believe so. 

[01:18:24] Travis Bader: Uh, doesn't have it in their paperwork. Okay. 

[01:18:25] Rachel Athila: Um, I believe I'd seen something, I don't want to misquote myself, but it was, you know, when you, when you approach the target, um, obviously you're holstered.

[01:18:34] Rachel Athila: And that was one thing it's like hands in the air from a casual position, unholstered, showing that you have good trigger control or good, sorry, pistol control. And obviously you're proving proficient. Once you're done, you're, you're Holster again. So between each set, it's very important that you show that you have barrel control, that you have, you know, good holster technique and good present presentation technique as well.

[01:18:59] Rachel Athila: So. 

[01:18:59] Travis Bader: Muscle control, trigger, finger discipline. That's the thing that the instructors will keep saying. You don't have your finger on the trigger until your barrel and your gun is pointed at the target, right? Doesn't mean like I don't have my finger on the trigger until I'm ready here. I can shoot. Right.

[01:19:13] Travis Bader: Cause you can shoot at any point all the way up. 

[01:19:16] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[01:19:17] Travis Bader: Depending on the individual, but it's got to be. Exactly, 

[01:19:19] Rachel Athila: exactly. 

[01:19:20] Travis Bader: Um. 

[01:19:22] Rachel Athila: You do get three attempts at it. 

[01:19:23] Travis Bader: Yeah, which is crazy. Isn't it? 

[01:19:25] Rachel Athila: It is pretty crazy. It's very expensive on ammunition. 

[01:19:27] Travis Bader: But here's, so here's an interesting one. They don't cover it in here.

[01:19:30] Travis Bader: Uh, so you said 20 seconds, which by the way, it is, uh, a lot of time. I maybe like, this is the form. I think this is the newest one. Cause this is the one that they, that they Uh, they provided you, I've seen different iterations of this one. Uh, if somebody has an older iteration that has different distances and different timings or whatever it might be, again, they just, it's one of these, stick your finger in your mouth, which way is the wind going?

[01:19:55] Travis Bader: Here's, here's where you go. They need somebody to say you are proficient. So if you do something silly with a firearm, they come back and say, well, that's somebody said, it wasn't me. It was that somebody. Right. Right. Um, I think that's the, the crux of this. Um, some people talk about, well, can you practice?

[01:20:15] Travis Bader: Can you have a, uh, do you have to shoot it cold or can you shoot it, can you warm up ahead of time? It doesn't say anything about whether you shoot a cold or not and they're really, there's only one cold round and that's the first one you shoot. And after that, you're dialing everything in. 

[01:20:28] Rachel Athila: And 

[01:20:29] Travis Bader: if you get three kicks in the can, maybe that's two practice rounds in one test, right?

[01:20:33] Rachel Athila: Yes, exactly. And I think that's one thing is that at the end of the day, they're basically trying to, You're just trying to prove that you have good manners, safe manners, when it comes to handling a firearm, obviously, especially with a pistol, um, and the biggest thing I found too is that when I did my test and, and this is something that I learned from the SIG Academy is always communicate, you know, when I'm shooting with someone, it's like, okay, you know what?

[01:20:55] Rachel Athila: I'm going to holster. Um, when I'm holstered guys, I'm going to let you know what I'm going to go live. Um, yeah. Just that way I'm being cognizant of the people that I'm sharing the range with. Yeah. Right. And I think that's a good practice to really install. 

[01:21:08] Travis Bader: I agree. I like that. It says, um, if the applicant fails to achieve the minimum pass mark, the applicant must be retested for the failed shooting distance.

[01:21:18] Travis Bader: So that doesn't say you've got to redo the entire course of fire. You just redo that one part that they failed on. Absolutely. An applicant can only attempt a maximum of two retests for each shooting distance. If an applicant fails to achieve the minimum pass mark after three attempts for either distance, the applicant can not attempt to do the proof of proficiency assessment until after a minimum of 30 days have passed.

[01:21:45] Travis Bader: Again, this is all policy. If you're like, man, I need it tomorrow. I need it whenever exceptions can be made. Um, Preferably, you're going to the range, you're practicing, you're getting proper training. Right? This isn't for every Joe Blow to come out and say, Hey, I want to, I want to carry. This is for people who need it.

[01:22:02] Travis Bader: And the people who need it will put the effort in and work. Um, The administrator must submit all POP assessment results, pass or fail to the chief firearms officer of their jurisdiction. So when you go in, they get recorded. And this one that says it can be mailed or faxed to, and that's in Green Timbers Way in, uh, in Surrey, the firearms office.

[01:22:27] Travis Bader: I like to call it the new one, but they've been there for like 15 years or so now, but, um, and, I turned the page on here and then it's got the, uh, the application form where the applicant information, their surname, given name, their PAL number gets in here. They put their firearm certificate and their FIN, their firearm identification number, the make model caliber type of ammunition used.

[01:22:50] Travis Bader: You should be using similar ammunition to what you're using out in the field. Absolutely. Uh, used to be, people would say, firearms officers would say, you have to use the exact same ammunition that you're going to be using in the field. And in theory, that makes sense. But in theory, communism also works, right?

[01:23:07] Travis Bader: Um, the reality is I don't know of any police agency that will go out and, uh, qualify on the same ammunition that they carry. They'll use frangible ammunition and a non toxic ammo on if it's VPD, that's what they're qualifying with, right? They'll use full metal jackets. They're not using the more expensive hollow points, they're not using the hotter rounds.

[01:23:33] Travis Bader: So being able to use a similar ammunition, and I think they've gone and changed it now, but you still might find firearms officers say it's got to be the exact same ammo. It doesn't have to be the exact same ammo. It's should be similar, should be the same type of firearm, type of firearm. Um, And it goes to, uh, it's this type of ammunition used and then a little pass fail, they prepared the firearm safely.

[01:24:01] Travis Bader: That's what you're saying earlier, right? Talking your way through, I'm getting myself safe. If I got the muzzle swinging everywhere, that's a fail, right? 

[01:24:08] Rachel Athila: You want to show up to the range with it, obviously locked in an opaque case and you want to have your trigger lock. And I think it's really good husbandry, especially if you're testing with someone you don't know.

[01:24:17] Travis Bader: You know, 

[01:24:17] Rachel Athila: like, or anyone, it just, to me, it gives them a safeguard of, look, I'm showing up. It's like showing up to a test with a chiseled pen and a good piece of paper. You're ready for the test. You've studied. 

[01:24:28] Travis Bader: Uh, firearm holstered safely and prepared for pop, pass or fail. Holstering and unholstering a firearm is an art form.

[01:24:36] Travis Bader: It takes some practice. There's some skill to it. There's YouTube videos, or even like yourself, Seiko professional instruction. Drawing. From the holster and firing smoothly. There's that skill. Ask about the target type, whether it's silhouette, bullseye or other, they can put their other in. And then it gives you for a second and third attempts from three meters and five meters, uh, pass or fail.

[01:24:58] Travis Bader: Um, does it all over again for a secondary, uh, firearm for number two. Um, And then it asks for the administrator information, their first name, last name, where they could be contacted up, their phone numbers or pal, um, where the location was that they did the, uh, the course. And there's an area for any additional comments if necessary.

[01:25:21] Rachel Athila: Yep. 

[01:25:21] Travis Bader: Okay. Obviously it's an offense under section 106 of the firearms act to knowingly make false or misleading statements, either orally or in writing. So you put a date and sign that, and then the CFO will take a look and they'll say pass or fail on there. 

[01:25:35] Rachel Athila: Yep, absolutely. 

[01:25:37] Travis Bader: Anything I missed on there? 

[01:25:38] Rachel Athila: No, and to be honest, like when you go through, um, the authorization questionnaire, Really use common sense.

[01:25:44] Rachel Athila: I mean, obviously, we just covered, you know, the shooting positions. You're doing it from a standing as well. Um, for the trapping, it's all standing. Um, but when they're looking at the answers that you're going to provide, one of the things that I really learned was, You want to give detail that gives a reassurance to someone, because you don't know who the civil servant is, who's going to be taking on your paperwork.

[01:26:06] Rachel Athila: So there's a way of answering your questions that cover your basis, but you also are not limiting. I mean, I'm a trapper up in Northern British Columbia. And one of the questions was, where will you be trapping? And, and that's something that I think when I bounced ideas off of you, he said, well, you might, he questioned me and Travis said, are you going to trap there for the rest of your life?

[01:26:27] Rachel Athila: You know, you could go trapping down in Southern BC if you get permission. So learning how to frame the answers of, I will be trapping in accordance with the law in the province of British Columbia. This is what I have now, but you're also leaving it open for opportunity. 

[01:26:43] Travis Bader: This is probably one of the areas where you and I, and most people, we spend the most amount of time going through because there's a delicate balance.

[01:26:50] Travis Bader: And part of that is knowing the individual that you're dealing with. What they're looking for, what their objectives are, where they're coming from. Cause I've had a firearms officer come up and say, look at, I'm just, you know, if there's any reason that you come up with, that you say that would preclude you from owning this, we'll jump on that right away.

[01:27:10] Travis Bader: So you have to be very careful. This isn't an fair and frank sort of disclosure of information process. This isn't an open, um, uh, dialogue. it's framed in such a way where you're already going to be on your back foot saying, well, if I say this wrong, you're just going to get it. And so that, this is where I find most people have the, um, the trepidation.

[01:27:35] Travis Bader: And this is consequently where most people will have themselves denied. 

[01:27:39] Rachel Athila: Yes, absolutely. And in a lot of the people that have reached out and said, you know, I've done the test. I shot very well. I have good trigger control. I had good holstering control, you know, I don't understand why I was denied. And I think a lot of it, like you said, comes down to the questions and how they answered them.

[01:27:56] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:27:56] Rachel Athila: You know, and it's up to the discretion of that civil servant to have a followup conversation. 

[01:28:02] Travis Bader: I would advise people to give, to answer just the question and don't expand on it. If they want expansion on that question, you can always expand afterwards. But answer that question as clearly and concisely as possible, knowing full well that maybe you just got somebody who's having a bad day.

[01:28:22] Travis Bader: Maybe you got somebody who's saying, oh, I'm going to look for reasons not to issue this one. In which case, the more information you provide, The more reasons the issuing body will have to deny it. So don't lie, obviously, number one, but it doesn't mean you have to go on and tell a whole life story as you go through as well, answer it as quickly and easily, concisely as possible.

[01:28:47] Travis Bader: And a follow up, uh, conversation might happen. 

[01:28:50] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[01:28:51] Travis Bader: In my case, I remember on one of them going through, uh, Um, and I was getting a wilderness carry for free mining and I do that all throughout British Columbia. And the firearms officer came running out one time when I was picking up stuff for work.

[01:29:08] Travis Bader: And he's like, Oh, I just wanted to talk to you about a couple of things and just casually throwing a few questions out. And I realized really quickly that I was being interviewed informally for this, as opposed to through the formal process that I should have been, and I talked to the guy and I said, hold on a second, are you trying to find reasons to not issue?

[01:29:25] Travis Bader: He's like, Oh, well, you know, I'm not. It's not that I'm trying to find a way, we just don't want to issue to anybody and everybody. And it was his words. We don't want everybody running around with handguns on their hip thinking it's cool. I said, this is a lifesaving thing. This is to do with life. Like that should be your only concern.

[01:29:43] Travis Bader: Do they make the requirement? Yes or no. If so go, but I get it. And he says, well, you know, we had a lot of people who just apply and they don't really meet the requirements. Again. That shouldn't take trickery. That shouldn't take running out to have, what are you carrying right now? Like when you go out, what do you use?

[01:30:00] Travis Bader: I physically can't take anything right now. Right. I need the handgun. My hands are loaded with everything else. It's not like I'm going to have a rifle or shotgun with me. There's like, you know, going out there and trapping, Holy crow, you're, you're like, I don't understand how anybody could have a rifle or a shotgun and still carry all of this equipment with all this stuff bundled up.

[01:30:22] Travis Bader: So questions, uh, please provide your valid trapping license number for a management license or equivalent. So that's an easy question to answer. Please provide your valid trap line number or registered for a management area number or equivalent and corresponding geographical areas. So for that one, How did you answer it?

[01:30:43] Rachel Athila: So I put down the trap line that I was leasing. Um, and the corresponding geographical areas, I actually, I ended up having a follow up conversation with, 

[01:30:56] Travis Bader: um, 

[01:30:56] Rachel Athila: because I had said, you know, I'll be trapping in British Columbia and that was too big. But in a follow up conversation that I had with a CFO, I said, this is the registered trap line that I am leasing.

[01:31:08] Rachel Athila: You know, I also have permission and that's what trapping has is you have the permission, written permission from the areas so that you are actually legally lawfully allowed to carry because you're still in the act of trapping. That's that's one of the gray areas. Is you have to say within British Columbia where you have authorization to trap, 

[01:31:30] Travis Bader: right?

[01:31:31] Rachel Athila: You have to put that. Otherwise, if you just put down trap line, such and such and such in the special comment side of your permit, it will say only authorized to carry on such and such place. 

[01:31:42] Travis Bader: Right. And this is all a process of. Limiting yourself and why would you limit yourself when your license allows you to work throughout remote wilderness areas, on private property, throughout BC, on other traplines, assisting other people, like your license allows for this.

[01:31:58] Travis Bader: Why would you limit yourself? Anybody listening to say, well, I've only got this one right now, so that's the only area I can have it. And, and that's what people should have in the back of their head as they're answering all of these questions. 

[01:32:10] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[01:32:11] Travis Bader: Uh, explain why you feel you need to use a handgun, a restricted rifle to dispatch trapped animals rather than 

[01:32:17] Rachel Athila: any 

[01:32:17] Travis Bader: other tool available.

[01:32:20] Rachel Athila: And the basic thing is, is it comes down to it's a lawful and it's an compact tool and it's effective for dispatching. A 

[01:32:27] Travis Bader: hundred percent. It's effective. 

[01:32:30] Rachel Athila: Plus. The big thing is it's compact. 

[01:32:32] Travis Bader: It's the easiest one to carry. 

[01:32:33] Rachel Athila: Exactly. It's on your holster. It's on your hip. 

[01:32:35] Travis Bader: Right. And if you have bycatch that you weren't expecting.

[01:32:38] Travis Bader: Just because you're catching one thing doesn't necessarily necessarily mean that's the thing you're going to get. 

[01:32:44] Rachel Athila: Well, and most time when you're walking in on a set, I mean, you're carrying tools, hoping that you caught your intended catch because they're not right off the snow machine. So, I mean, you're going in and your hands are already encumbered.

[01:32:55] Travis Bader: Um, 

[01:32:55] Rachel Athila: you know, or you're having to crawl into a place to set, to, to check a set. So, you know, the biggest thing is that you, it is on your person without having to physically hold it in your hands. 

[01:33:07] Travis Bader: Right. Uh, please provide the dates you plan to be harvesting the trap lines listed above. You said. 

[01:33:14] Rachel Athila: I honestly said I will be harvesting in accordance with the law, um, and seasons within the trapping seasons, um, and subject to based on the regulations.

[01:33:24] Rachel Athila: Um, and the options for trapping outside the season for nuisance animals. Yes. So the act of trapping is a year round activity. As a licensed trapper, I can be contracted. 

[01:33:34] Travis Bader: And I think mine was a little more vague. I think I said, uh, The dates every day, right? And I just let, so better answer. Yes, but I, uh, when systemizing things a long time ago, I took things real, real small.

[01:33:50] Travis Bader: Uh, and then that requires followup conversations and we'll talk about what that would look like afterwards. But, uh, Why would I find myself illegal if I say, Oh, I'm going to be working Monday through Friday. So all of a sudden I got to check a trapline on a Saturday, but I'm in contravention of the law now.

[01:34:06] Travis Bader: Why would I do that to myself? Uh, Well, and you're 

[01:34:09] Rachel Athila: setting yourself up for failure, right? You're already going through such a process. You need to set yourself up for legal success. That's what it is. 

[01:34:18] Travis Bader: Explain how you would safely and securely transport your firearm to the location on your trapline. I think you've made it sound nicer than what I said.

[01:34:26] Rachel Athila: You go ahead with your answer, Travis. 

[01:34:28] Travis Bader: Mine was in accordance with the laws. 

[01:34:31] Rachel Athila: So I did it in accordance with the law with restricted firearm on my followup interview. They want to know, and this, and they did come through. They said, you know, there are a bunch of questions that we have to go through. I, you say, you know, in accordance with the law, I need to know that you understand it.

[01:34:46] Rachel Athila: So the CFO I worked with, he just basically said, please explain to me what that is. And so when you're going to and from, you have to have it in a locked opaque case, but you also have to have the trigger guard locked and you know, your ammunition stored in a separate spot. Um, and the biggest thing too is, you know, You know, people are traveling great distances.

[01:35:03] Rachel Athila: So, with your ATC, you know, you can travel, it, it grants you permission to travel to and from your trapline. Obviously, I'm in a special scenario because my trapline is not far from my house. So, you know, I, I still have all my paperwork that I travel with, but I keep it in my opaque case, so that it's there, it's handy, and I have everything going to and from, whether it's a 10 minute drive or a 2 hour drive.

[01:35:26] Travis Bader: And essentially you just said, in accordance with the laws, but you articulated that you know what those laws are. 

[01:35:32] Rachel Athila: Exactly. And they will ask you that. So you cannot, you can say in accordance with the law, but you better know the answer when you do a follow up phone call. A hundred percent. 

[01:35:41] Travis Bader: And I think anyone with a firearm should know that one.

[01:35:43] Travis Bader: They, they should, but I tell you, 

[01:35:45] Rachel Athila: you know, what was funny is that that's where they say a lot of people fail is when they do the follow up phone call. If people do a small answer, they're But then they can't come back and actually articulate what the law is, obviously it's an automatic fail. 

[01:35:59] Travis Bader: But my question would be why?

[01:36:01] Travis Bader: Why would that make it an automatic fail? 

[01:36:03] Rachel Athila: If people don't understand where the law is and they're applying for a transportation, I can see from an officer's standpoint, if you say, if I say, Travis, you know, do you know what it means to travel? And you say, yep. And it's like, okay, well then what is it? And you balk and go, well, locked, of course, you know, as from the, you know, when you look at the devil's advocate, it's like, okay, so is this person going to travel with an unlocked firearm to and from the range and put my job at risk?

[01:36:27] Rachel Athila: So from their standpoint, you know, I think it is good to put vague, lawful answers, but by God, you better be ready to answer them with a good articulate. 

[01:36:38] Travis Bader: And see, but you're attacking, you're looking that from a very logical point of The way that I look at it is, okay, as a regulatory body, if the person doesn't know how to transport it, why don't we just put that, you know, on their conditions, making sure that we know, let's have a conversation, you Perfect.

[01:36:57] Travis Bader: How do you do it? Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll just have it, um, unloaded. No, no, you need to have it in an opaque locked box. Box cannot be easily broken into. It's got to be separate from the ammunition. It's going to have to have a secure locking device on that firearm. Do you understand that? Yes. If you don't transport it like that, there's issues, right?

[01:37:18] Travis Bader: Yeah. And, uh, as opposed to, Oh, you got that one wrong. You're gone. I think that's where a lot of people's trepidation comes in because they feel. And sometimes it's like this, I'll be honest. Sometimes there is a gotcha game process to it. Not always, sometimes he gets switched on firearms offices and they're like, We want to make sure you're safe.

[01:37:36] Travis Bader: We want to make sure you're good. Right. Sometimes you get people who don't quite understand, and maybe they're working under that. 

[01:37:40] Rachel Athila: You've 

[01:37:40] Travis Bader: got to deny everybody. 

[01:37:42] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[01:37:43] Travis Bader: Um, same thing goes for how would you safely carry the firearm 

[01:37:47] Rachel Athila: while you're 

[01:37:47] Travis Bader: working on your trapline? 

[01:37:48] Rachel Athila: Yeah. You're wearing it on your safety.

[01:37:50] Rachel Athila: Oh, you're wearing it, sorry, on an approved holster that meets the requirements with retention. 

[01:37:54] Travis Bader: Yeah. And that's what my answer is. 

[01:37:55] Rachel Athila: Yeah. 

[01:37:56] Travis Bader: Um, 

[01:37:57] Rachel Athila: They will try and catch you up and say, oh, so is that a cross draw? It's like, no, it's on your hip. So, you know, it depends on who your interviewer is. 

[01:38:05] Travis Bader: There's nothing in the law that says you can't use a cross draw and you can have a cross draw on your hip too.

[01:38:10] Rachel Athila: I think it just said that in the part of the form. 

[01:38:12] Travis Bader: Form, not law. 

[01:38:14] Rachel Athila: Oh, there 

[01:38:14] Travis Bader: you go. Right? Not legislation, not regulation. There you go. But definitely did say it in the form. Allegedly. Allegedly. Explain how you could safely and securely store the handgun while not carrying it on your trapline. 

[01:38:27] Rachel Athila: All right. So I actually went with an answer that I think covered all bases, which was my handgun was stored within the outline requirements as set out by the federal law for restricted firearms here in Canada.

[01:38:37] Travis Bader: Beautiful. And did he say, Oh, what are those? 

[01:38:40] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. And then you 

[01:38:41] Travis Bader: explained. 

[01:38:42] Rachel Athila: And then I explained to him. So. 

[01:38:43] Travis Bader: Okay. And then there's an offense if you give any bad information. So that, that is that one. 

[01:38:48] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[01:38:48] Travis Bader: So there's that written questionnaire and then there's the followup kind of verbal questionnaire that may or may not happen.

[01:38:55] Travis Bader: And it's my experience. It always happens. 

[01:38:57] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[01:38:58] Travis Bader: Uh, way years ago, didn't now always happens. And I remember a, um, firearms officer, Travis, I want to, I want to have a verbal conversation with you. All right. And when can you come in? We've got to go through this. I'm like, well, I'm trying so hard to document everything.

[01:39:13] Travis Bader: Just give me your questions in an email. I'll respond to it. Then I've got this paper trail. And I told him that I said, look at. Each and every time I apply, it's going to be like a new application. Yeah, I get that. But we've got a framework we can work with and I'm working with other people. If they meet that framework, then, then good to go.

[01:39:29] Travis Bader: Right? So, no, no, we got, we got to do this verbally and okay, my back of my hair stand up a little bit when, when those are my responses. And I said, okay, um, he says, well, it's a dynamic thing. You might say something and then I have to say this and it might grow. I have no idea what my questions could be. So gotcha.

[01:39:47] Travis Bader: Okay. No problem. So finally I said, I got you on the phone now. What are your questions? Oh, okay. Well, I guess question number one, he goes through and it's like, okay, sounds perfect. Just writing it down. Just letting you know, I'm writing down this question. Um, let me think on that. I'll get back to you. I'll send you an email.

[01:40:06] Travis Bader: Yes. Okay. Uh, okay, what's question two? And we did this for each and every one of his questions. I wrote them down word for word, and then I responded and I put it in the email. I said, I want to template this. Like you can't make this. Yeah. I'm in a pain in the ass. I get it. Um, but it, it templated that process and it's allowed a lot of other people that who are eligible to, to be able to go through this process in a more streamlined fashion.

[01:40:36] Rachel Athila: No, I think, no, and I think that's one of the things that, you know, at the end of the day, when you're going through this process, I mean, there's no smoke and mirrors, you are either going to get approved or you're not, and so much of it will come down to obviously in preparedness. So wrapping up this ATC for the, for the trapping side, I mean, you've got your 5491E or whatever the form was.

[01:40:59] Rachel Athila: How would you submit that? Would you submit that application first as well, or would you submit a package? Cause I think that's what people are going to want to know. Okay. So I've done my studying. I've gone to the range. I either do or I don't have a pistol. So the best advice for someone moving forward is there's three different applications that we have to send in.

[01:41:16] Rachel Athila: One's the POP, proof of proficiency. One is the questionnaire and one is the 5491. I'm going to misquote the number on it, but that's, it'll be in the show notes. 

[01:41:26] Travis Bader: Yeah, 5491E. 

[01:41:27] Rachel Athila: 5491E. So there's those three different parts that you have to send in. Would you, would you encourage people to send them all in at once?

[01:41:34] Travis Bader: I would. Uh, issue is getting those questions. Uh, the 5491E is available online. You can grab that, download it, put it through, but the questionnaire sheet, usually what happens is they do this first. 

[01:41:47] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[01:41:48] Travis Bader: Then they get the whole questionnaire sheet and everything else. 

[01:41:50] Rachel Athila: That's how it happened for me. 

[01:41:51] Travis Bader: For everyone, because they don't make this publicly available.

[01:41:54] Travis Bader: All those questions that we just said, now you know them. Right. Yeah. Uh, those distances you have to shoot the requirements, uh, those I think, and we can look for it. I think, uh, some versions of the, uh, the form had it. This one doesn't. I was looking now, the new one doesn't. 

[01:42:09] Rachel Athila: Yeah, and that was the biggest thing is that until I actually got the form.

[01:42:12] Rachel Athila: I had done some research, so I had a pretty rough idea of what distances I had to shoot and what proficiency I had to, you know, obviously maintain. That was the hardest part is that until you submit your 5491E, you don't get your questionnaire. Right. And you don't get the distances. So 

[01:42:30] Travis Bader: in 

[01:42:31] Rachel Athila: essence, I didn't do it wrong.

[01:42:33] Rachel Athila: I did, I did send him a 5491E. I finally got a response back. They said, Oh, you haven't done your application. It's like, where's the application? I would love to attain this so that way I can move forward on the process. It just 

[01:42:45] Travis Bader: to be crystal clear, this is the happy path because they know this. 

[01:42:49] Rachel Athila: Yeah. 

[01:42:49] Travis Bader: There are other proof of proficiencies that you can do.

[01:42:51] Travis Bader: This isn't the only proof of proficiency, right? And there's a whole different, there's a lot of different schools of thoughts on a proof of proficiency and how that works. Training at the speed of life is a neat book. If people want to learn about RBS reality based training systems, RBT, whatever that is, uh, some.

[01:43:09] Travis Bader: Talking about police training and the argument in some states for a one round qualification course and knowing the, um, uh, being able to articulate the laws and the know how and all this is more important. And like, there's, there's a lot of different thoughts just because you can shoot a qualification course doesn't mean you're going to be good with your gun.

[01:43:28] Travis Bader: Yes. Right. And just cause you do poorly on a qualification course doesn't mean you'll do poorly with a firearm in a situation you might need to. It's a really nice tool for agencies to be able to pass or deny, to show that they've done their due diligence. And so this is the happy path route. It's not the only route.

[01:43:45] Travis Bader: Uh, it just depends on how much a person wants to be obstinate and fight. 

[01:43:48] Rachel Athila: Yep, absolutely. 

[01:43:50] Travis Bader: Uh, protection of life in remote wilderness areas. So this is a one where I think more people 

[01:43:55] Rachel Athila: will 

[01:43:55] Travis Bader: be doing again, same information about the administration. It's someone who's got a PAL. Four restricted firearms at the time of the administration, who is a range safety officer or a member of the approved shooting range executive, or is an instructor for a recognized firearms course or discipline.

[01:44:12] Travis Bader: Like, what is that? What's a recognized firearms course or discipline, right? By what country and what, I think it's wide open, like you said before, everyone's a range officer. Yep. Um, Firearm used during the POP must be the same firearm the applicant intends to use for wilderness carry, same comments from before applicant can only apply for a maximum of two, uh, to be listed on their ATC and a POP must be completed for each firearm.

[01:44:38] Travis Bader: And the last one there was the minimum caliber accepted for wilderness protection is 357 Magnum. Again, that's what they write on this policy form. Uh, I've seen them issued for 40 cal. I've seen them issued for nine millimeter. Um, and. When you're looking at this whole thing, it's for the protection of life and remote wilderness areas.

[01:45:04] Travis Bader: And you read through the act, let me just pull up the exact word. Cause I think it's an important piece of the puzzle. Um, because I was asked before, what predatory animals do you expect to see in your area when looking for a, uh, uh, lower caliber than 357? Cause everyone said, Oh, it has to be 357 or higher, says who, based on what, and what's bullet penetration looking like, and what kind of ammunition are we using?

[01:45:30] Travis Bader: And The act says, uh, wild animals, protection of the life of that individual or other individuals from wild animals. It doesn't say predatory animals and wild animal. I mean, there's a lot of different things that you might have to protect yourself from. 

[01:45:47] Rachel Athila: Oh, absolutely. I don't know if anyone's ever come between a cow and calf moose or had them, you know, Have had a foul catch and you know, you, obviously you do your best to not catch them.

[01:45:58] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:45:58] Rachel Athila: But accidents happen and there's a reason they chase off grizzly bears. Let me tell you, you do not want to get in a boxing match. 

[01:46:05] Travis Bader: No. Uh, obviously the heavier rounds. The faster the projectile goes, the bigger the projectile is. You start stacking things in your favor. If you have a poor shot placement, right?

[01:46:17] Travis Bader: Things are going to The 

[01:46:18] Rachel Athila: inertia, the bullet inertia and how it's actually impacting and Right. There's a lot to it. 

[01:46:23] Travis Bader: So things will die if you interrupt their central nervous system. That's your incent off switch. Or if you interrupt their cardiovascular system, stopping the oxygen going to the body. Brain introducing hypovolemic shock through massive cardiopulmonary decompression.

[01:46:37] Travis Bader: Right. And there's, there's two ways that we do the first one, central nervous system is going to be brain spinal cord shot placement. Right. Number two could be lots of holes in it. Right. So. 

[01:46:52] Rachel Athila: Very platonic term. Yes. Lots of holes. 

[01:46:54] Travis Bader: Lots, lots of holes, right. Causing it to bleed out more and more. Hopefully those holes are in good places.

[01:46:59] Travis Bader: Lungs, heart, vital areas, all the rest. But when we start looking at, uh, the firearm being issued, it used to be, you have to use a revolver and it has to be 357 at least. And I said, there's a case for a handgun, a, uh, semi automatic because more rounds means more holes. Um, maybe you're in a high stress situation and you're trying to dump as many as you can quickly.

[01:47:25] Travis Bader: Um, there's a case to be made for lighter recoiling because shock placement is, is massive. So this is not etched in concrete. It's not etched in stone. 

[01:47:36] Rachel Athila: That's correct. 

[01:47:37] Travis Bader: But it's a happy path. Ammo type of ammo used during the pop has to have similar muzzle velocity, caliber, and bullet weight as the ammunition they intend to use.

[01:47:46] Travis Bader: Fair enough. At least they're not saying the same ammunition anymore. Uh, holsters, all the same sort of information covers a trigger, uh, has a whole holster retention device must be used during the pop. What they mean by that is. When you put the firearm back in the holster, you apply the retention device.

[01:48:04] Travis Bader: You can't just leave it open. I've seen so many people want to, Oh, I can get it out faster if there's a time. Or if they 

[01:48:10] Rachel Athila: just have it sitting on top. Yeah. And yeah. So you 

[01:48:12] Travis Bader: gotta, you gotta actually use it. Shoulder and cross draw holsters are not permitted, it says. Again, steel targets are not permitted. Uh, the assessment now we're looking at, uh, applicant must shoot in both standing and kneeling positions for each distance five, 10, and 15 meters.

[01:48:30] Travis Bader: And now we've got a timeframe on it. 

[01:48:32] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[01:48:33] Travis Bader: For each firing position at each distance, the applicant must discharge six rounds to the Unsupported within 20 seconds in one continuous motion. Six rounds in 20 seconds is a world of time. So for people who are concerned quite often, it's like, what are they for five, six?

[01:48:52] Travis Bader: And then you're looking at the watch as it's counting down, like you count down 20 seconds, start learning how to use that time and make sure you're good sight picture. Proper trigger press. 

[01:49:03] Rachel Athila: Nice squeeze. Yeah, exactly. Follow through. World of a difference. Absolutely. Good grip. You're not pulling, you're not flinching.

[01:49:11] Rachel Athila: And we will say too, you're not shooting at a steel target. It does still give you like, whether it's a silhouette or a bullseye or other, but it does have to be within a nine inch diameter. Right. So obviously because you're going from those different standards of your five, 10 and 15, obviously you have a wider diameter.

[01:49:28] Rachel Athila: But I mean, you're still, you're moving. And I think that was one thing in the test is that you go from standing to kneeling, unholster, make your shot. So there's a lot of communication. There's a lot of moving parts on this set. So I would definitely encourage people, you know, when you're going down range and you're shooting this as a target, practice.

[01:49:45] Rachel Athila: Articulate to the people that you're working with because it just makes you a better marksman. It also makes you very cognizant because for, for a safety mind, if I'm going to test you and I don't know you, I'm going to feel more comfortable going, okay, this person's just said, all right, we're going to go times on.

[01:50:02] Rachel Athila: I'm going to go from my hands to holster, but I'm going to be taking it out. I like to have someone articulate to me so I can anticipate, because it also shows me that they have confidence. And that was one thing that was passed down to me when I did my test is that my, the person who tested me said they admired that I had confidence, that I was able to articulate because we are going to a live range.

[01:50:24] Travis Bader: I like that. And it also makes sure that if the examiner doesn't see you doing something. Yes. Cause they're standing 

[01:50:31] Rachel Athila: on one side and my holster's on the other. 

[01:50:33] Travis Bader: So did you, I heard that sequence, you said, uh, going from standing to kneeling, then unholstering. So you unholster from a kneeling position.

[01:50:40] Travis Bader: Typically we'd tell people to unholster from a standing position, just so they're not, if they're depending on what knee they're on, it's not pointing at their leg as they go through. Um, I may have heard that wrong, but, um, the. And then you, of course, 20 seconds here, scoring, uh, the administrator must indicate a total number of hits for each of the shooting positions and distance a hit is awarded when a round lands on the designated scoring area of the target.

[01:51:07] Travis Bader: And like you said, the designated scoring area is defined as being a circle with a radius of nine inches or 23 centimeters. And they used to actually say pie plate. He's a pie plate, right? Um, The applicant must achieve 15 hits for every 18 rounds fired. So again, from each shooting position, that's 83%. If an applicant fails to achieve the minimum pass mark, the applicant must be rested, sorry, must be retested for the failed shooting position at all three distances.

[01:51:38] Travis Bader: So same thing again. Uh. 

[01:51:41] Rachel Athila: And I think that would be something, Travis, we just talked about is, you know, when I went down to a kneeling position, I would I chose to keep mine holstered because then I wasn't moving. I, and maybe, maybe that's wrong. There was no dissertation on whether you had to unholster and then go kneeling.

[01:51:57] Travis Bader: There is no right and wrong, really, as long as you're doing it safely. 

[01:52:01] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[01:52:01] Travis Bader: There is the common school of thought, how everyone's like, this is how I was taught, so this is how it's got to be done. Right. So there will be people who listen to this and say, Nope, Nope, that's wrong. Cause it's not safe. And that's, that's the only reason I interjected that one part, but realistically you should be able to unholster, prone, supine, kneeling, sitting, right.

[01:52:21] Travis Bader: Uh, and, and know how to do this. It's not always going to be a perfect situation. Maybe you're knocked on your arse and you got to get this gun out and work from there. Right. Um, but for most people, the, the, the They know. Yeah. Training, they know things in a certain way. Mm-Hmm. , I don't know. I, my A DHD mind thing seems to paint outside the box of a lot.

[01:52:42] Travis Bader: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 

[01:52:43] Rachel Athila: And I think for myself, because, um, my examiner was standing on my left side, I'm obviously, it was a right holster. I think when I, I went down, I had, I was doing it in the snow after a blizzard, and I just said, 'cause it was slippery as well. 

[01:52:56] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:52:56] Rachel Athila: So I think that's where I, I made the choice where it's like, I'm gonna do my move action and then go f.

[01:53:01] Rachel Athila: Unholstered because that way, in my mind's eye, it was the safest scenario because you can slip as you go to kneeling in the snow. 

[01:53:08] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:53:08] Rachel Athila: So, 

[01:53:10] Travis Bader: um, 

[01:53:12] Rachel Athila: caution and diligence. 

[01:53:13] Travis Bader: Caution and diligence. It says an applicant can only attempt a maximum of two retests for each shooting distance. If an applicant fails to achieve the minimum pass mark after three attempts.

[01:53:25] Travis Bader: For any distance, the applicant cannot attempt to do the POP assessment for, unless 30 days have passed again, exceptions I've seen have been made. The administrator must submit all results, same as before. Um, You know, some people, and we see it time and again, Oh, I want to have my proof of proficiency.

[01:53:47] Travis Bader: They'll phone up our office. Yeah, not a problem. Right. Um, so we're gonna have to rent a range, right? Uh, we're gonna have to make sure, obviously as a company, we've got insurance, uh, sending you out with an instructor examiner. They're at a high caliber at a high level. They need. Paid to be paid when they're out there.

[01:54:06] Travis Bader: This is work, right? Our ranges aren't in our backyard. So there's travel there and back, and then there's processing. Like it becomes costly endeavor, unless somebody happens to have a friend who's putting them through and there's no money exchanged, then you don't have to worry about, cause then you can still fall underneath the, uh, the range's insurance.

[01:54:26] Travis Bader: The second people start doing this as a bit of a business, it. Yeah, it's costly to do it right. So I would be wary of dealing with individuals who are doing this as a business, who are looking, who are willing to cut corners and costs, they either, A, do it at no charge as a part of their club and what they do, uh, or have some sort of a, something figured out.

[01:54:47] Travis Bader: I don't know if there's a, uh, you donate to the range or whatever it is, but you start looking for businesses that offer this one, um, be prepared to spend some money to get out there. Um, I think, and then it says shooting cold. There's nothing in here that talks about shooting cold. Uh, but some people will make you do that.

[01:55:10] Travis Bader: Again, all the same information, make, model, caliber, all the rest, uh, first attempt, second attempt, third attempt, five, 10 and 15 meters, pass or fail, um, prepared firearm and magazine, speed loader safely, pass or fail, firearm holstered safely and prepare for the pop, pass or fail, drawing for the holster and firing smoothly, pass or fail.

[01:55:34] Travis Bader: And it gives the types of targets that are used. Okay. Anything we should add on that? 

[01:55:41] Rachel Athila: No, I think the, and the biggest thing is just practice. Yeah. You know, I think that's. Were you pretty nervous? Uh, I'm not going to lie. Yes, I was because I wanted to do well. I wanted to do well and it, I, I'm not going to lie.

[01:55:57] Rachel Athila: It was a blistering, colding day. It had been a blizzard. I had to cut spruce boughs to get up this one part of our, literally with my ax so that my truck could get in. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, like this is not setting me up for success here. You know? And. I also, it was December. I wanted to be on the trapline, 

[01:56:14] Travis Bader: like 

[01:56:15] Rachel Athila: I, I had a lot of pressure, but at the same time, I'm very fortunate enough that I've had an opportunity to train with some very highly decorated soldiers, ex military, ex special agents, you know, through the SIG Sauer and through the instructors that they have there at the academy.

[01:56:30] Rachel Athila: So I remember the process and looking with both eyes. And I just, when I got to the range. It's almost like yoga minus the lululemons where you just, you have to just get into the zone. And especially for someone that has very little experience shooting pistols, except for when I would go to the States.

[01:56:50] Rachel Athila: And when I finally got mine and I spent a lot of time with green thumbs when I go to the States and they jokingly bring extra powder, but it's the Canadian way, you know. But my biggest advice is if you're going to be nervous, shoot, shoot as much as you can, as often as you can. 

[01:57:07] Travis Bader: Yes. And, you know, everyone talks about.

[01:57:10] Travis Bader: Shooting is 90 percent mental, 10 percent physical. And they'll say that for a lot of sports and I find shooting, you got that instantaneous feedback loop where if I did something poorly, I see it on the target right away. Um, work on that 90%. Dry fire. Dry fire. Visualize. Yes. 

[01:57:30] Rachel Athila: Especially for Canada, you know, dry fire ammo is expensive.

[01:57:34] Rachel Athila: And that's one thing I've done a lot of, um, simulations with, uh, my friends at SIG when we do the guide training, you know, you'll have a partner and you'll get handed your, your firearm. You present it, it might have a live round. It might not. And you find your flinches, you find everything. 

[01:57:48] Travis Bader: And 

[01:57:49] Rachel Athila: that's at home.

[01:57:50] Rachel Athila: I mean, you can practice. Yeah. With your restricted firearm at home, empty, make sure proof it's safe. You can take your empty magazine and you don't even have to put your magazine and you can rack it and you practice your trigger control. And I, um, Trevor Thompson, he's a friend of mine. He gave me some really positive advice.

[01:58:08] Rachel Athila: Practice how you shoot and presentation is everything. Make it muscle memory. And that's one thing that as soon as I started practicing, as much as I was nervous and cold and we were sitting out in the snow bank on the day that I did my test. I got into the zone because it was familiar. And as soon as you go to a place of familiarity when you're nervous, The world calms down.

[01:58:30] Rachel Athila: And you shoot well. 

[01:58:31] Travis Bader: I love that advice. And that ball and dummy is what they call it, whether you have a live round or a dud and, and, uh, you can sure see if you're flinching. Oh 

[01:58:39] Rachel Athila: man. I'll tell you what, you want to see a Canadian and I was like, you'll see, pew, pew, and I was like. A couple of my American friends, they laugh, but.

[01:58:46] Travis Bader: In the, uh, the drawing, I mean, if you're getting ready for your shift, there's nothing, no reason, it's going over to the loading port, going to load up. No, nothing that says you can't draw and holster 10 times in the morning, unload at the end of the day, draw and holster 10 times. Man, that adds up. You got to, 

[01:59:01] Rachel Athila: yeah, 

[01:59:01] Travis Bader: you get.

[01:59:02] Rachel Athila: And the firearms these days are so forgiving. Cause I, I asked, I was like, well, this wreck my firing pin. Absolutely not. And I, I asked, I was like, how often do I have to clean my gun? And some of the, like the gentlemen that train have worked extensively. They're like, they're forgiving. I've drug it through hell.

[01:59:19] Rachel Athila: Yeah. Obviously, if it gets dirty, you clean it, but that's one thing. Do not be afraid to dry fire and do that practice because that practice is perfect. It's the way to do it. 

[01:59:29] Travis Bader: Perfect practice makes perfect. So questions, uh, what is your profession or occupation as it relates to this application? Describe your work duties.

[01:59:39] Travis Bader: And so, you know, as a free miner, I'm working in, uh, remote wilderness areas as a free miner, and I just, you know, leave it really wide and open. Well, what'd you say? 

[01:59:50] Rachel Athila: Well, honestly, so. I did it as a trapper for the wilderness side of it, um, because that's what I thought my prerogative was and I wanted to just get my first application in.

[01:59:59] Rachel Athila: So I said, you know, I work in a remote setting. Um, I will, I, I will be active and not limited to carrying and transporting game, large amounts of traps and related supplies and tools, uh, to perform my occupation as well as navigating changing terrain and modes of transportation. So that answer is, The meat and potatoes of everything.

[02:00:22] Rachel Athila: I'm not saying I'm just going to use an SUV in the summer, I might be using my horses to look for squirrel middens. Cause I'm still trying to learn my area, you know, you don't want to limit yourself. So that's why when you say all forms of transportation, you know, it's all encompassing. Um, the, the crazy part is Travis said, I want to touch on this as we go through this application is when you get your wilderness ATC, and this is a question I actually had for Travis coming up to this event is when you have your wilderness ATC.

[02:00:52] Rachel Athila: I'm obviously a registered trapper. I work on a very remote cattle ranch that has all sorts of things with teeth and animals that, you know, are prey and I work as a guide. So can a person, does a person answer all of those things? Because under the special qualifications on your actual license and permit, can you be qualified for all of those different jurisdictions or is it only for one?

[02:01:18] Travis Bader: As long as you are. Working in a remote wilderness area, you can be qualified on that one. So that, that leaves it there. I've seen reluctance to issue it for certain professions or other professions, but that comes down to what did the law say? Occupation or profession. Well, you are working on that law, lawful possession, profession, or occupation.

[02:01:44] Travis Bader: Now, if you get issued for one and you're like, now I want to carry it for the other, That I would say would find you offside, you get issued for one and you say, I'm also working on these other areas that keeps you on side, because if it was issued for a certain lawful occupation or profession, like for example, I'm an armed guard and I want to go outside now and, and in a wilderness area, it doesn't correlate, translate over, but you can be, Uh, certified in all these different areas that you do work.

[02:02:19] Rachel Athila: We'll touch on that one later. That was a big question from the audience is I do X, Y, and Z. These are all year round activities. How can I go about doing that? 

[02:02:30] Travis Bader: You just put it down with what your lawful professional occupation is. 

[02:02:33] Rachel Athila: Yeah. On your application. What if you've done your application and submitted it already?

[02:02:37] Rachel Athila: Like myself. You can 

[02:02:37] Travis Bader: have it updated. You can have that updated in like 24 hours.

[02:02:44] Travis Bader: All right, here we go. So there, there might be, now keep in mind, every application is based as brand new, right? When you go through a renewal. So I would 

[02:02:53] Rachel Athila: have to do the entire application. 

[02:02:55] Travis Bader: You'd fill it out again with the new information. This is where dealing with that idea that each one has done brand new.

[02:03:02] Travis Bader: That's policy, right? Okay. This is where we're dealing with people again. So this is, look at here's, I'm working. I want to make sure that I'm on the right side. Make sure I have it listed on my ATC. Now I'm guiding, now I'm doing this. Uh, what will it come back? Um, well, you're guiding, do you have a rifle with you?

[02:03:24] Travis Bader: If you have a rifle with you, why don't you just use that? Do I have a rifle with me all the time? Right. Would be the, um, I need it. I need something that's going to be with me at all times. Yes, I've got a rifle, but there's times it's going to be in the scabbard. It's going to be on the horse. And there's going to be times I'm with, uh, somebody else.

[02:03:42] Travis Bader: Oh, does that somebody else have a firearm? What do you need the, uh, the handgun for? Right. So now I've got to depend on that somebody else to protect my life. I'm the one who's in charge of their life, right? This is my profession, right? So I'm the one who's been paid to take them and myself home safely at the, at the end of it.

[02:04:01] Travis Bader: So these are some of the questions that I can, I could anticipate based on what I've heard in the past. Um, Oh, you're going out right now. What do you use? Right. That was, that was the one that stuck with me. I am physically not able to carry anything else at the time. Right. Um, oh, you're carrying bear spray.

[02:04:18] Travis Bader: You doing other things? Yes. But I'd like to have the, uh, the handgun because the efficacy of bear spray is, and we can get into that whole thing as well. Yeah. Um, So yes, it can encompass more things. No, I would not have it issued under one thing and use it for something else and expect for people to not.

[02:04:38] Rachel Athila: Yes. That's the biggest thing is looking at your specifications. And so as a person goes through these questions, just for the people who had questions about it in the audience, that was a big one is if I'm permitted for one, how do I one reapply? Two, do I have to do another whole questionnaire or three, can I have it all encompassing If I'm submitting this for the first time.

[02:04:59] Travis Bader: So what I've actually seen happen is. Um, I am also doing this, I am following all of the exact same protocol as before. The only addition is this. Can I have it updated? And I've seen that. Is that going to allegedly, is that because, you know, the, The difficult part is, is these people are nice people. A lot of them are decent people and you don't want to throw them under the bus when they're doing you a favor, right?

[02:05:26] Travis Bader: You feel good cause, oh, those really nice are looking out for me. But were they doing me a favor? Like really just do the job. This is to protect my life and this is something that I'm properly qualified and trained for. Just add it on. But this relationship, this whole Stockholm syndrome thing kind of falls into place.

[02:05:43] Travis Bader: Um, and I, that's where I'm hoping this podcast will help normalize it. 

[02:05:47] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. And if anything, the amount of guides that I know that have had interactions with predators that have meant them harm, you know, your guns leaning against here while you're gutting a moose, your pistol is on your hip and there's been a lot of instances and some, unfortunately, very fatal.

[02:06:03] Rachel Athila: That, you know, have, have cost people their lives or they've been maimed to the point where they don't partake in certain activities anymore because of fear that's been installed. And that's one thing is that I hope that this would help be a skill set to help them walk through an application so that that way they're using them in the most, in the best case scenario, obviously, you minimize it.

[02:06:25] Rachel Athila: But we just want everyone to be safe in the best country. 

[02:06:30] Travis Bader: Yes. Um, define the specific remote geographical area where you wish to carry a handgun while working. And what did I put? And I'm looking back as my form was a little bit different. They had a little bit different questions. Um, Anyways, uh, yeah, throughout BC on Crown land and remote wilderness areas is what I put.

[02:06:50] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. And for trapping, you know, um, because I did go after my wilderness to carry as a trapping, you know, outside of dispatch, um, I just said with landowner permission. 

[02:07:01] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:07:01] Rachel Athila: So that's a big one is that you have to have that written down in there. Yes. So. 

[02:07:07] Travis Bader: Okay. Um, what dates do you anticipate Being required to work in that area every day.

[02:07:14] Travis Bader: Every day, the year 

[02:07:15] Rachel Athila: round occupation. 

[02:07:17] Travis Bader: Explain why you feel you need to carry a handgun in relation to your profession or your occupation, as opposed to a more effective methods of protection for predatory animals. Example, spray, rifle, shotgun. I like how they say spray is more effective than a handgun.

[02:07:32] Travis Bader: Rifle and shotgun is more effective. Well, What's going to be effective is the thing that you have with you at the time. 

[02:07:38] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[02:07:38] Travis Bader: That's going to be effective. Uh, and the handgun is always going to be with you. It's going to be worn with you. Uh, I don't disagree that a rifle or a shotgun with slugs, um, will do greater penetration, more kinetic energy can do greater damage.

[02:07:59] Travis Bader: But it's like you were saying, it's, you don't have your rifle in your hand while you're getting. 

[02:08:03] Rachel Athila: It's fast reaction times as well. I mean, by the time you actively go pull, pull up your long rifle, I mean, that takes seconds. Sometimes the act of trying to find and locate your rifle, it's not on your person.

[02:08:14] Rachel Athila: Practice makes perfect. 

[02:08:15] Travis Bader: And the idea that spray is going to be more effective. 

[02:08:19] Rachel Athila: It has to be effective at very close distances. 

[02:08:21] Travis Bader: Right. And it also has to be, I haven't seen bear spray being tested against, uh, predatory aggressive animals. These are just animals that are passively activated, you have to say, walking on through, you give it a squirt.

[02:08:35] Travis Bader: It's like, I don't like this. I'm going to leave. They're the same ones I would leave if you smacked them in the butt with a broom. Right? 

[02:08:40] Rachel Athila: Exactly. When they're in full predator mode and they're coming in, they're engaged to do harm. 

[02:08:45] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:08:46] Rachel Athila: A miscloud of prey. Pepper is not going to do it. No, 

[02:08:49] Travis Bader: that's where central nervous system or lack of oxygen, that, that comes into play.

[02:08:55] Travis Bader: So I, I don't discount pepper spray. Pepper spray is a great tool. 

[02:09:00] Rachel Athila: In the right scenario. 

[02:09:01] Travis Bader: It's just another tool that can be used, but it's not a panacea. It's not the be all end all. 

[02:09:07] Rachel Athila: Yes. But that's the thing too, is that when you come back to it, is that handguns are the most effective tool. They are. In a wide variety, there is a method of protection.

[02:09:16] Rachel Athila: Um, and the biggest thing is that your hands are not encumbered by having to carry your weapon. Right. When you're in a wilderness scenario, whether you're free mining, whether you're a forester, whether you're a guide tying up a horse, caring for your client, you know, you're a trapper carrying in your sets, your hands are always full and a back, a back, um, sling for a rifle isn't, Isn't conducive or quick acting as far as safe.

[02:09:41] Rachel Athila: You'd have to drop everything, try and sling your rifle around. You can drop what you have in your hands and your holster is right there. 

[02:09:46] Travis Bader: And it's not always practical either. 

[02:09:48] Rachel Athila: No. 

[02:09:48] Travis Bader: You go through brush and scrub and I mean, you've got this rifle on your back. That's dragging on everything. 

[02:09:54] Rachel Athila: Yeah. 

[02:09:55] Travis Bader: Okay. And the 

[02:09:56] Rachel Athila: biggest thing too, that I know when I talked to the CFO is that.

[02:09:59] Rachel Athila: A lot of times you're putting yourself in close call situations. So, and that's even close as far as proximity, you might not have the room to swing a rifle around because if you and I are standing there and our rifle's between us, I mean, good practice is I'm not going to swing the rifle in front of you while I'm loading it to protect us, you know, like in best case scenario, like it's, you have a lot more muzzle control with a smaller object where I can spin my person around And present the, you know, the firearm.

[02:10:28] Travis Bader: But there's an, as you're talking there, I'm reading as well, uh, protect from predatory animals, nowhere in the regulations does it say predatory animals. This is wild animals again, right? So it's like, I get where people's heads are and quite often people are like, well, it's got to be good for a bear. You need it for bear.

[02:10:46] Travis Bader: And that's the only thing that kind of sits Uh, in a lot of people's minds and the issuing body's mind, but they're, you know, wolves. Yeah. Okay. They're a predatory animal, uh, calf cow, right? Like you were saying, there's. Or an 

[02:11:00] Rachel Athila: animal that's been maimed by a predator and you ended up, you end up walking into them.

[02:11:04] Rachel Athila: I mean, they're in defense. 

[02:11:06] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:11:06] Rachel Athila: Um, 

[02:11:07] Travis Bader: so it's not necessarily predatory animals that you're carrying it for. 

[02:11:10] Rachel Athila: Yeah. 

[02:11:11] Travis Bader: The regulations say wild animals. 

[02:11:13] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[02:11:15] Travis Bader: Um, while working in the remote, while working in this remote area, how many people will work in the immediate area with you within sight or within verbal communication distance?

[02:11:27] Travis Bader: So I, I say typically zero. That's what I wrote. What'd you write? 

[02:11:31] Rachel Athila: I've wrote typically zero, you know, a lot of times you're working alone or you're in one or two small people groups and there's a lot of communication that happens. Um, again, you know, I said that while you're working, I am in the act of working, chainsaws, tools, horses, equipment, supplies, my hands are busy, and that's, again, where it comes back to is that your hands are busy and otherwise engaged.

[02:11:56] Rachel Athila: You are not actively carrying a defense mechanism. 

[02:11:59] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:11:59] Rachel Athila: So. 

[02:12:01] Travis Bader: Are you registered with British Columbia, WorkSafe BC, or Yukon Workers Compensation Health and Safety Board in the aforementioned profession or occupation? Identify how. I said, nope. 

[02:12:15] Rachel Athila: Yes. I, I honestly, um, those questions there, I said not applicable.

[02:12:19] Rachel Athila: Yeah. That's what I put in, it's not applicable. Cause the biggest thing is sometimes you're working underneath a guide outfitter, especially if you get certified to carry under guide outfitter, I mean, they've signed off on it and they have their own insurance. So you've made it aware that you will be carrying, you are lawfully, legally allowed to carry, um, so your, your due diligence is letting them know, and obviously they've signed off on your, your work permit.

[02:12:41] Rachel Athila: So, 

[02:12:43] Travis Bader: um, if yes, have you or your employer met the obligation under the regional workers compensation board legislation by providing you the worker with training and instruction on the safe handling use of the firearms? So if that's applicable to the individual, we answer as it is for me, it was not applicable as 

[02:13:01] Rachel Athila: well.

[02:13:02] Travis Bader: Uh, explain the risk assessment your employer has conducted in relation to safe avoidance of hazardous wildlife in the remote area in which you will be required to work, attach copy. So it's, that's different. Explain the risk avoidance your employer has in, has conducted. Well, previously they said, uh, that you had conducted.

[02:13:23] Rachel Athila: So 

[02:13:24] Travis Bader: the 

[02:13:25] Rachel Athila: wording has changed a bit. I know for myself, I said, because I am self employed, you know, I actively solicit, you know, local knowledge before entering into an area, I'll talk to the other stakeholders that are there, you know, especially if there's other industry practices, uh, for example, like where the trapline is, they were logging.

[02:13:40] Rachel Athila: I, I ran into logging trucks and other people On the daily. So, you know, um, keeping the communication open and if there's people like tree planters and stuff like that during the summer, obviously you make yourself known, make yourself aware, right? Um, and that's the biggest thing too, especially if you have predatory animals or you have a cow calf, for example, you know, there's a part of the, um, trapline I wanted to go look at that's particularly swampy.

[02:14:05] Rachel Athila: I wanted to see if there was any aquatic animals in there. There was also a cow and calf moose. I am going to avoid that area at all costs because I don't want to have a confrontation. But another one too, for trapping, and even for guide outfitting, and depending on what your jurisdiction is, don't be afraid to introduce yourself to your local CO, your conservation officer, um, if there's a local detachment that you know, uh, frequency area, um, it's good to be on speaking terms and, and first name with all of the other industries and stakeholders.

[02:14:36] Rachel Athila: A hundred 

[02:14:36] Travis Bader: percent. Uh, I wrote down, I obtained recent intel from locals and those working in the area. This may include aerial views, uh, recce reports, reconnaissance reports, stats, and sightings and encounter reports. So just, it's pretty broad and open, but I mean, if I'm going to go out, I'm going to do my due diligence.

[02:14:56] Travis Bader: Like you said, talk to people who will be in the area. 

[02:14:58] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. Let's get 

[02:15:03] Travis Bader: over here, next page. Explain what information you have obtained from British Columbia slash Yukon conservation officers with regards to predatory animals in remote wilderness area in which you will work, please provide the names and contact information to all those who consulted.

[02:15:20] Travis Bader: So this is a newer one that they put in. I was never asked this about which conservation officers, like you, I'm friends with a number of conservation officers and they are on the hotline go to that I'll talk to you and I'll phone up, right. And yeah. And, and get information. But, um, to me, when I read that, that looks like third party denial.

[02:15:41] Travis Bader: Essentially, it looks like, well, you were denied because I talked to the conservation officer and I asked them a bunch of questions and they answered no to it. Oh, did Rachel ask you ABCD, right? Did Rachel go and blah, blah, blah. Well, no, no, no, they didn't say that. Right. Whatever it might be. To me, it just reads like a way to deny a person's application that brings that, that level of control away from both the firearms officer and yourself and gives a little bit of the arm's reach.

[02:16:13] Travis Bader: I could be a hundred percent off base and being paranoid as I look at that, but that's, that's how it reads to me because, um, Cause 

[02:16:20] Rachel Athila: especially when you're asked to provide names and conduct information. Right. Why? So you're soliciting someone else. And to me, I didn't feel comfortable doing that. 

[02:16:27] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:16:28] Rachel Athila: So when I answered mine, Travis, I said, you know, part of my strategy will be to communicate with local organizations and government officials as I further familiarize myself with the area, you know, and, and I'll articulate what I'm finding and I will also understand that it might be, you know, within a timely manner as well.

[02:16:45] Rachel Athila: You know, different parts of the season. That way, I, I didn't feel comfortable putting down people's names. 

[02:16:50] Travis Bader: No. 

[02:16:51] Rachel Athila: Because I don't know what questions they're going to ask and they don't know me and I don't know them. 

[02:16:54] Travis Bader: That's it. So. But you will be asking, I mean, I mean. 

[02:16:57] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[02:16:58] Travis Bader: Do you do due diligence and find out, I mean, what, what info that you're going to ask now is going to have any consequence when you're out there half a year later, right?

[02:17:07] Travis Bader: Absolutely. Explain how you would safely carry your handgun while working in this remote area. I say in accordance with the laws that got a call back for you. I got 

[02:17:18] Rachel Athila: a call back for me. It sure did. And it goes down to the same thing as trapping. It has to be holstered on your hip with a level of retention.

[02:17:25] Rachel Athila: Yeah. 

[02:17:26] Travis Bader: And I think in a more recent one, uh, put down, uh, Um, in an approved police issue belt slash, uh, thigh holster. I took a path at that time, which was if they're going to look at approving or denying certain types of holsters, why don't I just pick a holster that's already been approved for issue with police agencies.

[02:17:46] Travis Bader: It was good for them. Surely it's good for somebody working in a remote wilderness area. So they've got retention straps. It 

[02:17:52] Rachel Athila: has to meet all the requirements. That's it. Yeah. Absolutely. I 

[02:17:55] Travis Bader: just so happen to have a whole bunch of them kicking around, so it made life easy. 

[02:17:59] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[02:18:00] Travis Bader: Um, it says, explain how you'd safely store, safely and securely store your handgun while working in the remote wilderness area.

[02:18:09] Travis Bader: So same as your answer for the other one, I should imagine. 

[02:18:12] Rachel Athila: Well, so this is store your gun while working in the remote. So that's the trick question on this one. Is that obviously, you know, if you're guiding, when you're traveling to and from the field, you have to be in accordance with your ATT, your transportation.

[02:18:27] Rachel Athila: And that, I read, as it, at night, so I go to the cabin, is this a grey area where it's like, technically, I'm storing my firearm, you know, my handgun, while working in this remote area, so, you know, with myself, I would probably take my opaque case, right, and my two locks, transport them in, so that that way, I have my locking mechanisms.

[02:18:49] Rachel Athila: If I have to lock them up, like, to me, this was a question that they could catch you up on if you answered it with too much information. 

[02:18:59] Travis Bader: How did you answer? 

[02:19:00] Rachel Athila: I said, I would store in accordance with the federal and provincial legislations. I did say that I would have my transportation, my ATT regulation, um, equipment with me so that if I had to store it for any period of time, I would be in accordance with the law.

[02:19:14] Rachel Athila: I did say that on my phone call, but, um, Technically, if you're working in a remote trapline, You know, you're opaque in your truck, in your console, you know, that's outside, outside, out of sight, out of mind if it locks. So, and if you have to leave a restricted firearm, you know, in a vehicle, you have to have it locked, double locked as well.

[02:19:36] Travis Bader: Yeah. So it says it's got to be locked to the trunk. If a trunk is available, if no trunk available, it's going to be. Locked in the vehicle, out of sight with the vehicle locked, right? Exactly. So you still have to have 

[02:19:46] Rachel Athila: multiple mechanisms of locking. 

[02:19:48] Travis Bader: Right. But he, you do raise a good point. Like what, what storage, I mean, like take it to the silly degree.

[02:19:54] Travis Bader: Well, I'm in a mobile home. Is this transferred as a storage, right? I live in a houseboat. Is it transferred as a storage? Um, 

[02:20:03] Rachel Athila: The biggest catch up was while working in this remote area. So for guides, foresters, and everyone else, it's actually staying in a cabin where as a guide, you have meat hanging outside.

[02:20:13] Rachel Athila: And you're 

[02:20:13] Travis Bader: still working. You're still working. Just cause you're sleeping doesn't mean you can't get woken up in the night. You're on call. But that's where the due 

[02:20:19] Rachel Athila: diligence comes in is obviously there has to be a level of awareness of around camp. It is up to you to make sure that that firearm is in your line of sight on your hip.

[02:20:28] Rachel Athila: If it's not on your hip, I would take that as a grey area that it needs to be stored. So, that's where for people that are asking that question, um, because it did come up in a lot of the online questions is, say I get approved for it, do I have to take all this stuff with me when I go to the mountains?

[02:20:44] Travis Bader: Now, of course, I'm on the spot. We don't have cell coverage where we're at, but, um, I know in non restricted firearms, there is a section for, uh, storage and they can be stored in contravention of the safe storage laws, if it's going to be used relatively soon for predatory animals and the rest. I'm trying to remember if there's something, I don't think it's in there for the restricted or prohibited.

[02:21:05] Rachel Athila: I can see the page online myself. Yes. So maybe we'll put that in the field notes, but that comes down to common sense, because if you live in a remote area, I mean, obviously you're not, you're not storing it unsafely, especially if there's children around or anything like that. But if you have attractants in camp, you're waiting to get a plane out so that you got meat.

[02:21:24] Rachel Athila: I mean, that's where it comes down to a due diligence side. Um, and when it comes to restricted firearms, those are questions that be prepared to answer. Especially if you're going after your wilderness ATC, um, and some supplementary information when we get back to service, we'll definitely provide it, but.

[02:21:41] Travis Bader: Throw it in there. And what's, what's contravention? Contravention of the laws could be a bunch of things. What I've seen it typically mean is just unloaded. Yeah. Um, typically like having it loaded would be in contravention, but typically what I've seen people come down to as an understanding of a contravention would be is the gun's unloaded, but it's ready for, for, for use if needed.

[02:22:04] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, okay.

[02:22:10] Travis Bader: It says, uh, please include proof of firearms and wilderness training that you've completed the past five years. Along with any other relevant training. And so people can fill that out, sign it, date it. 

[02:22:24] Rachel Athila: And you know what, in that circumstance, the more the better. If you've had wilderness, um, you know, industrial predator awareness, conflict management, you know, exactly.

[02:22:34] Rachel Athila: If you've got first aid, if you've done any, uh, pistol or, um, you Long rifle training, private instruction. You know, if you're, I, I'm a registered guide, so I put my registered guides license down, you know, any information that shows that you are an industry field executive or professional, 

[02:22:53] Travis Bader: put it 

[02:22:54] Rachel Athila: in there.

[02:22:55] Travis Bader: Did you have questions? Cause I know we put some stuff up on the internet. Did you have people asking you questions that we haven't answered? 

[02:23:02] Rachel Athila: So the biggest thing that as we kind of worked through this is that people wanted to know. Can I get a firearm if I didn't buy one or I'm still on the waiting list?

[02:23:11] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[02:23:12] Rachel Athila: That was number one question out of the three different rounds I did. 

[02:23:15] Travis Bader: Yeah. So from anecdotally, oh, sorry, allegedly all the rest. Yes. 

[02:23:22] Rachel Athila: So how can they go about that? 

[02:23:25] Travis Bader: That's a damn good question. Um, so there still will be businesses that have firearms. Not all the businesses got rid of all their firearms.

[02:23:36] Travis Bader: So those are still available. Those still will be individuals who have restricted, uh, have handguns, cause it's not a restricted firearm, uh, ban or freeze. It's simply a handgun. Um, I have seen people importing from the States. Businesses have imported from the States. I have heard of individuals doing that for work reasons.

[02:24:01] Travis Bader: I haven't seen that personally, but I have heard that. Um, but there are, there are still provisions of protocol because they can't deny you the ability to go out there and protect your life. 

[02:24:11] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. 

[02:24:12] Travis Bader: Um,

[02:24:16] Rachel Athila: We're remaining hopeful, ever hopeful, but I think that was, some of the other questions came down to, are there training opportunities for first time, you know, for people that might own a handgun, you know, uh, Silvercore, I know has a lot of great opportunities for learning, whether that's classroom online, is there somewhere that they can go to get training To make them a more proficient shooter.

[02:24:40] Travis Bader: Uh, well, clearly I'm going to plug Silvercore because we do that. Um, but honestly, there, there's a lot of good places that you can go to. There's a lot of qualified people across the country. Um, look, look for positive Google reviews, not people who are given paying passes and shuffling them through quickly, but for the people that the, um, uh, I mean, I guess those can get positive Google reviews too, that you can read between the lines.

[02:25:05] Travis Bader: And then going into the States as well. I mean, everyone and their dogs got a gun in the States. Marty Hayes Firearms Academy of Seattle is a good one close for people who are near the border. The SIG Academy, fantastic training. Um, done, done lots of work with their counterparts up here and you've done as well.

[02:25:22] Travis Bader: Um, Yeah, I've been through at Smyrna, Georgia with Glock and, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts, although I guess they've moved now, Smith and Wesson, um, but there's lots of, if you, if you're doing the training, uh, getting it from a reputable source would be preferred, but not always the case. Not always practicable, depending on where you live and what's available.

[02:25:48] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. Um, another big question, uh, especially because you guys do so much with handgun proficiency, revolver versus, um, the pistol with the removable, uh, magazine like myself, 

[02:26:00] Travis Bader: I'd say, what do you have? Number one, but yeah, in Canada, what do 

[02:26:03] Rachel Athila: you have? What do you have? Right. 

[02:26:04] Travis Bader: But, but number two, uh, I go semi auto.

[02:26:07] Rachel Athila: Yeah. 

[02:26:08] Travis Bader: Uh, and I go semi auto because damn they're robust, right? They are. I don't have to like. Uh, SIG makes amazing stuff, right? Uh, and I've got a number of glocks that I use that have been through hell and back and they still go bang. I've, I've seen these things work with major components broken on them and they just keep plugging away a polymer frame.

[02:26:29] Travis Bader: Kind of nice. 

[02:26:30] Rachel Athila: One thing I really like how easy they are to reload. Sure. That's one thing. You drop the magazine, you put another in, you know, when you have a revolver, there's, there, there are cute little ways that you can easily reload, but for safety, I thought I would be a revolver person. That was changed the moment I put a sig in my hand.

[02:26:50] Travis Bader: The idea that you're going to be in some protracted sort of thing and shooting and then reloading and shooting and reloading and going through, typically you're, Using what you have in the firearm and hopefully that's going to be it. 

[02:27:01] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. Worst case Ontario, you want to be able to have another magazine.

[02:27:06] Rachel Athila: Yes. 

[02:27:07] Travis Bader: Um, but yeah, the semi autos do interject a couple other things that you need to know from a training standpoint, right. How you hold it's going to change how it cycles, ammunition is going to feed differently. Um, you have to know how to clear some basic stoppages or, or jams with it, but it's not like you don't have to think about some of these things.

[02:27:26] Travis Bader: With a revolver as well. And it's just the lightweight, the robustness, the corrosion resistance, and the added rounds, the extra rounds that you have, because maybe you're out there in a, in the middle of nowhere and you have to use it and you're coming home and you find you have to use it again. Right?

[02:27:47] Travis Bader: Like worst case scenario, isn't it nice to have more rounds and not enough? 

[02:27:50] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. Now in Canada, we are under certain restriction. For magazine capability. Absolutely. But with my 9, I know I have 10. With my 10 millimeter, I have 8. And you know, my 45 70 that I used to carry, I could fit four down the barrel.

[02:28:05] Rachel Athila: So it's like, you know, when you looked at the practicality of it too, like you said, more ammunition. Um, another big question was, um, Is, when a person goes after their ATC and we did touch on it, is there a way to communicate with an officer to find out if they qualify? Because there's a lot of people that say, well, I work remotely, you know, I might be a geologist.

[02:28:30] Rachel Athila: Does this, you know, does this work for me? You know, how can people find if they actually meet the criteria? Because when you look at it, if you work remote wilderness, you have to protect your own life. 

[02:28:41] Travis Bader: What's remote wilderness? Wilderness. 

[02:28:43] Rachel Athila: Well, it depends for everyone else. Right. So remote wilderness 

[02:28:46] Travis Bader: for you might be different for somebody in the lower mainland, right?

[02:28:49] Travis Bader: Absolutely. So what exactly is remote wilderness? So that, that's the question I'll put out there for people to opine on themselves. And the other one is, uh, So, uh, it says professional occupation. So it's not just, Oh, I'm just working on my roof. Right. But if you can tie that into your professional occupation, like I'm sitting, I'm working on the fence.

[02:29:12] Travis Bader: Right. That's a part of my professional occupation as it applies to what you're doing. Um, the firearms program will ask you to provide you with, uh, a letter from your city or municipality saying that, uh, you're licensed to work in that area. And I say. What does, I live in Delta, what does at that time, the corporation of Delta, now the city of Delta, have to do with my work in remote wilderness areas outside of Delta?

[02:29:40] Travis Bader: They said, Oh no, no, we need to get this. I said, okay, fair enough. So I talked to them and they say, we don't have any authority over these areas, but no, I've got it in writing. It's satisfied the firearms program and set that one forward. Yeah. So. I wouldn't advise people to contact the firearms program to ask if they qualify.

[02:29:59] Travis Bader: I don't want a binary yes or no. I know that if I'm working in the remote wilderness area.

[02:30:09] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. I'm just looking through a bunch of the questions here is, you know, I think we covered, where do I start for the wilderness permit? Um, and the biggest thing is you can go online in Canada and that's nat that's national. 

[02:30:21] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[02:30:21] Rachel Athila: Um, and that's your 5491E. 

[02:30:23] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[02:30:24] Rachel Athila: And I would submit that. Obviously, um, I don't know if you have yours in front of me.

[02:30:28] Rachel Athila: I've got mine. You have to have for that particular form, um, um, a permit. You have to have your firearms license number. You obviously have to be able to say whether this is a new or a renewal. Um, If you have an employer, there's a certain section for that as well. Um, there are certain circumstances, you know, for mine, I, there's two different sections, applicant works in remote wilderness, firearms are required to protect of his or her life or the lives of others from wild animals.

[02:30:59] Rachel Athila: Um, they give a few different and you can check a few of them that apply. So, I mean, I checked the applicant is engaged in the age of trapping in the province and the territory, knowing what I know now, I could have checked all the boxes because I do all the boxes. 

[02:31:14] Travis Bader: Right. I think your concern, if I recall correctly, was, I don't want to delay this even further.

[02:31:20] Rachel Athila: That's correct. That's why we went after trapping. 

[02:31:22] Travis Bader: Right. So, and I need it now, and it's been so long that it's taken. And now this, you're right, federal form, provincially applied. Some provinces have got this dialed in and they understand it. Other provinces, you're going to have personalities and option individuals.

[02:31:39] Travis Bader: Sorry, Nova Scotia. Um, 

[02:31:42] Rachel Athila: Alberta is nicer and easier. 

[02:31:44] Travis Bader: Right. So, uh, just, just from my own personal dealings of different firearms officers and, uh, different offices, I know that some are going to be an easier road for you, some are going to be a little bit more difficult. 

[02:31:57] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. And one thing I will say, um, there's a few questions that came through on Instagram asking, you know, Once I've started the process, how do I, what's the appropriate time to follow up?

[02:32:10] Rachel Athila: So, obviously that's personal dependent. I mean, I, I did go after the wilderness trapping side. Specific to trapping, because I was coming into December, November, and I wanted to get out there as fast as I could. Um, obviously I still had months in the making. So now coming into my prep season, I can now carry legally and lawfully.

[02:32:30] Rachel Athila: Um, another thing I'll say is document everything. When I submitted everything, I put a sticky note, submit it on this time, you know, and, um, Uh, I gave it a week and a half, two weeks the first time, and then I followed up. Concisely, politely, time, time is of the essence. 

[02:32:48] Travis Bader: So what's an appropriate time to follow up?

[02:32:51] Travis Bader: I don't like entering into something without knowing what that timeframe looks like to begin with. I know I need it for this certain time. That's my timeframe between here and now. Right. So if I need it next week, I'm following up every day. Right. Right. If I need it tomorrow, I'm following up every hour.

[02:33:06] Travis Bader: Right. If I need it in four months from now. I'll say, I'll call them up and I'll say, what's an appropriate time. When can I expect to have the spy? I'm going to be calling and following up on these days or emailing on these days. So I usually try to have that timeframe, timeframe specified. So the firearms officer isn't caught off guard.

[02:33:28] Travis Bader: Maybe they've got a pile of work that they have to go through and mine's just on the pile. It doesn't really matter. But they look at it and it's low priority stuff. And they just think yours is in there. It used to be that they'd give you a purple envelope, different businesses would get a purple envelope and that they would fast track an application that came in a purple envelope.

[02:33:47] Travis Bader: Then it was, if you write for employment on your, uh, your paperwork that goes in, you're going to get a fast track. Now everyone's basically at the same rate. But I've seen things go through in like grease lightning, if the firearms officer knows that there's a need for it and there is a timeframe that it's.

[02:34:06] Rachel Athila: Because like you said earlier, they're held accountable if they had, in a way, allegedly, allegedly, if you have done everything, you have submitted your application and you are trying to use it to, To protect your life in your occupation. Oh, God forbid something happens. I mean, there is a bit of a precedence.

[02:34:28] Rachel Athila: You've, you've jumped through all the hoops and you are there, you are waiting for an answer. 

[02:34:32] Travis Bader: And that accountability goes both ways. Right? So they're held accountable if they say yes. Why did you give this person the gun? Clearly they're mentally unstable and they did all these bad things and they're all through, all over the internet, right?

[02:34:43] Travis Bader: And all through the media. Why didn't you give this person? No is typically the easier answer for most people and most civil servants to. Give, uh, because they feel like it gives them greater control. Chris Voss has got that, he's that FBI negotiator that's never split the difference. And he's a guy who that really pushes, he says, I'm so tired of hearing people trying to get yes answers out of, uh, people that's an old.

[02:35:09] Travis Bader: False way of thinking, get no answers and no oriented questions. I say, apply that to dealing with a firearms officer. Is there any reason why you can't issue this in the next three days? Well, no. Right. How'd that no answer work in your favor? Yeah. Uh, is there any reason why the information I provide you would not?

[02:35:33] Travis Bader: Uh, it would fall short of being acceptable. We'll know, right? The second you get them to say, well, yes, on this one. Okay, what? And now they're wearing it again and the onus is on them in order to be able to, they're going to have to defend that decision. Yeah. So that, that would be more of the approach that I take.

[02:35:55] Travis Bader: It's not about tricking people and there's also the, um, tacit approval, which may or may not work for some people too. So I am going out and I'm carrying my handgun and. I'm going to be doing it on this day and this time. I've provided you all of the information. Unless you provide me some information or reason why I can't do that, or that would be unlawful, I will be taking it out.

[02:36:20] Rachel Athila: And I think we actually might've gone that way, Travis, with my particular application, because it had been prolonged. I was at the end of trapping season and It wasn't until I had put a timeline on it saying, look, like I, my partner was gone. I'm going to be out on the snow machine and I, I, I have intention.

[02:36:41] Rachel Athila: I will be going to check my traps at this time, you know? Is this going to be permissible or no? How did I say that? Um, 

[02:36:50] Travis Bader: is this permissible is still waiting for a yes or no, because if they don't answer. What 

[02:36:54] Rachel Athila: did we say? 

[02:36:55] Travis Bader: Right. Unless you tell me otherwise, I won't be doing this. 

[02:36:58] Rachel Athila: Yes. Unless you tell me otherwise.

[02:37:00] Rachel Athila: We use some, we use some wordage to that point. And unfortunately it was until that time that I kept getting stagmented and stagmented in my application because it was several weeks and several months and then all of a sudden come March. The beginning of March, almost all the way through my trapping season, that's when I got the call saying, by the way, we have a problem with your application.

[02:37:20] Rachel Athila: You have a prohibited firearm. 

[02:37:22] Travis Bader: Right. Because they've realized what happens. They've, I guess, number one, they can ignore it. Like that's, if they really don't want to give it to you, that's probably their best option. And I've seen denial. Of, uh, licenses and authorizations and certificates, certificates through, um, what's the term refusal through, uh, just not engagement.

[02:37:48] Travis Bader: Basically they just ignore it. They figured this will go away. And then your only recourse is to, to. And even then, that's not the best one. Honestly, a better recourse before then it's go to the media because the courts aren't set up in a way to hold the, uh, firearms office accountable just based on how it's, it's set up.

[02:38:06] Travis Bader: We can talk about that in a different podcast. Absolutely. But, but there is, uh, a massive public interest here if we have, a body that's out there that is actively denying individuals from being able to protect themselves in situations where they need to carry this, this handgun. It's, it's a lawful legal thing to be able to do.

[02:38:27] Travis Bader: So if they come back and say, yeah, no, you can't do that. Uh, we're going to just drag her feet some longer, it's going to look pretty bad on them. And they're now wearing that. If something happens to you and you go out there and you get hurt. Um, so sometimes going that tacit route, I wouldn't go there right off the bat.

[02:38:46] Rachel Athila: Hopefully not. Right. You know, worst case, you know, but, uh, yeah. So that, that's a great answer. Um, one of the other questions was, and I mean, are they still offering non restricted courses because of the freeze? A lot of people have seen a retardation of the courses. Or sorry, let me, let's rephrase that.

[02:39:10] Rachel Athila: Okay, cut to the editor, cut to the last stage. So let me rephrase the question, start again. So a lot of people are wondering, are there still courses being offered for restricted permits? Because of the freeze, people maybe haven't seen them as often, or they're not as popular because people are hanging on the fence of, well, why would I get this if We obviously can't purchase a new firearm.

[02:39:30] Travis Bader: So you can actually purchase restricted firearms. There is no restricted firearm freeze. There's a handgun freeze, and that's where a lot of people get, uh, tied up. You also have, uh, businesses that will have restricted firearms working in the film industry, working in armored car industry, working in, there's a lot of different industries that will need, uh, a restricted firearm.

[02:39:54] Travis Bader: Trapping, guiding, free mining. Like there's, it's a legitimate employment reason. So, uh, a hundred percent, get the restricted. I would tell absolutely everybody, if you're putting the time in to do the course, do non restricted and restricted all at the same time. The reason being is we're going to We don't know what's going to happen in 2025.

[02:40:16] Travis Bader: It's easier to do it all at once. It's less time to do it. The minimum time requirements are less if you're doing both of them within a certain timeframe. And you don't know what the future is going to hold. Maybe your semi automatic rifles are going to go on a restricted list. Maybe, and now you're licensed, right?

[02:40:34] Travis Bader: So I would get maximum licensing you can. There's nothing wrong with having a little bit more knowledge aside from the little bit more money than it costs. Um, 

[02:40:45] Rachel Athila: 100 

[02:40:46] Travis Bader: percent I'd 

[02:40:46] Rachel Athila: do it. So the last question that I've got here, and it had a lot of hits on it, stupid proof it as far as the process. So we are starting, I mean, if we could put it as ABCD, that would be easiest.

[02:41:00] Travis Bader: I don't think we can stupid proof it. 

[02:41:02] Rachel Athila: No. 

[02:41:02] Travis Bader: No. And I, the reason I don't think we can stupid proof it is because of the fact that we have that human factor. Um, If people want to understand my thoughts anyways, on the human factor and what I've seen work, they'd have to listen to the entirety of this podcast, go to the firearms program website, get your form 5491E, read through the requirements on there.

[02:41:29] Travis Bader: Read the Firearms Act regulations as it applies to authorizations to carry and see that you actually meet those requirements that you're working and it's in a remote wilderness area. 

[02:41:42] Rachel Athila: Key on working. 

[02:41:44] Travis Bader: Right. Do your proof of proficiency training as outlined, put your application in. Um, that would be the fastest, easiest way to do it.

[02:41:55] Travis Bader: You can also call them up and get the questionnaire ahead of time and just say, Hey, I want the questionnaire. I'm going to fill it out. I'm going to put it through, uh, ask for an email address that you can send it to rather than mailing it. If you're mailing it, send it by certified mail so that you've got some sort of 

[02:42:10] Rachel Athila: tracking 

[02:42:10] Travis Bader: and record of delivery receipt signed for, um, emails easier, Easy to copy, easy to have it, and, uh.

[02:42:21] Travis Bader: You can 

[02:42:22] Rachel Athila: access it anywhere. 

[02:42:23] Travis Bader: Yeah. And then follow up, put that timeframe on it and follow up. 

[02:42:27] Rachel Athila: The biggest thing is. You can do all those steps, but it's on you at the end of the day, it's on you to practice, it's on you to shoot your pop, it's on you to follow up, they don't owe you anything. 

[02:42:37] Travis Bader: Not at all. 

[02:42:38] Rachel Athila: And that's the biggest thing, that's why I stuck through it and it was hard and it was frustrating at a lot of times.

[02:42:45] Rachel Athila: And it took a lot longer than I thought, but the process really made me appreciate the opportunity. And for those people that they qualify for it, you will hold it in that much more of a regard when you actually are successful, because at the end of the day, as someone who's licensed with both ATC wilderness and trapping, I am, I mean, as a guide and as a professional in the industry, one, I was always very super cognizant of it.

[02:43:12] Rachel Athila: Now, even more so, my actions are being watched. And I take pride in the process that I've gone through. Because it also, it sets the stage for everyone else. I don't want to screw up and ruin it for you. And I think that's the biggest thing is that you, you have to take it serious. And at the end of anything, you have to take it serious.

[02:43:32] Rachel Athila: You have to give it the respect for the process. Um, Cause yes, as much as it is a legal opportunity for those of us that work in remote settings, there, there is a responsibility that comes with it. 

[02:43:44] Travis Bader: Rachel, I think we've covered a lot of, lot of ground on this one. Now, whenever I get people calling me up and asking for help, I'll say, have you listened to this episode, right?

[02:43:53] Travis Bader: Go through it from start to finish. Absolutely. That. Really gets the major nuts and bolts of the secret sauce out there into the public view for people to look at. I'd love to hear questions that people have. I'd love to see comments. Other people who've been successful, please let us know what your route was.

[02:44:13] Travis Bader: People who've been unsuccessful want to let us know why. And after listening to this, if you have an idea of like, well, maybe it was one of these things, cause I'll tell you, it's a part of the regulations here. They actually have to let you know why at the end for revocation. They talk all about that. Um, notice of refusal and revocation.

[02:44:31] Travis Bader: They have to actually let you know and serve that information to you. So let's use this as a place where people can share their knowledge and, um, Maybe, maybe our shared goal of normalizing this process will, uh, will be seen through. 

[02:44:48] Rachel Athila: Absolutely. And here's a 2025. 

[02:44:51] Travis Bader: I love it. Thank you, Travis. Thank you.