“Brotherhood, Resilience, and Firearms: David MacDonald Returns”

Silvercore Podcast 168 David MacDonald === [00:00:00] Travis Bader: If you follow Silvercore Outdoors and social Media, you'll have noticed that we have ongoing giveaways with the number of the Silvercore Club brand partners, marathon watches, armament Technology, SAI, optics, OOK Cases, bear Watch Systems, Alaska Guide Creations, and many more. This is on top of the regular discounts at Silver Court Club. Members get on these and a whole slew of other products and services. Silvercore Club members can get more chances to win by participating in these giveaways, but they're already entered for free, included as a part of their membership. Now, if you wanted a sure win. All you have to do is leave a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify podcasts. Take a screenshot of that review, send it [00:01:00] on in to info@silvercore.ca with your mailing details, and we're gonna send you off a Silver Core outdoors sticker. Your efforts in leaving these reviews makes a great deal of difference to the visibility of the Silver Corps podcast, and it allows us to be able to continue to get high caliber guests like the one we have today. So without further ado, let's get on with this podcast. You may remember today's guest from Silver Corps Podcast, episode one 17. He spent three weeks in a German hospital after an IED explosion in Afghanistan, recovering from no fewer than 47 broken bones, including a massive skull fracture. Since then, he's helped countless others overcome personal trauma and PTSD by sharing his story today. He's the trusted presence behind Breta Defense Technologies as a manager in the defense and law enforcement division. Welcome back to the Silver Core Podcast, David McDonald. [00:01:54] David MacDonald: Hey Travis, for having me again. Uh, yeah, it's just, it's uh, great to be back, honestly. Uh. Thank you for inviting me. [00:02:00] As I said, I've been kind of, uh, been following, uh, you since I left from my last podcast. You've had an amazing series of guests, so honestly, I feel a little inadequate being here today, but, uh, uh, let's, I'm excited to get back. Let's do this again. Hey, [00:02:11] Travis Bader: you're one of those amazing guests that's for, for sure. Appreciate [00:02:14] David MacDonald: that. So [00:02:14] Travis Bader: what is it that brought you over here? [00:02:16] David MacDonald: So, uh, so we're in, uh, b BC this week, or like that. There's the, uh, Canadian Association of Chief of Police, uh, conference and Trade show. Uh, it happens every year in August. It actually, it rotates throughout the country. So last year was in Halifax, and then they circle back and they do it in va uh, Victoria. So I've spent the last, uh, three days out on the island. [00:02:35] Travis Bader: Yeah. [00:02:35] David MacDonald: Uh, just, uh, doing the trade show, meeting with the chiefs, the deputies. Uh, there's some, you know, the superintendents, uh, uh, promoting the brand defense brand. Yep. Uh, which we'll get to in a second like that. But, uh, 'cause last time I was here we were talking about Stoger Canada. This is, uh, now there's a whole new branding we, you know, we can talk about. But, uh, just, and, and then came in today, took the ferry over this morning like that. Then now I'm in Vancouver. I'm here to meet with [00:03:00] some of my existing, uh, clients, if you wanna call it that. So, Vancouver Police, uh, new Mess, Winster Surrey Police, and just, uh, kind of get some face time with them. [00:03:08] Travis Bader: Yeah, that's good to do. Yeah. Yeah. The, so. I had brand new branding with Beretta Defense Technologies. Mm-hmm. And, uh, what, what was the move behind there? Probably some confusion when people are think thinking like Stoger, how does this fit into [00:03:19] David MacDonald: things? Yeah. So, uh, so I, so it's kind of twofold. So first of all, at the international side level of it, uh, bread of Defense Technologies has been a, a brand for a little while, but it's not really been all that recognized. So a co in the last year, uh, Breta kind of branched off the DEF defense military law enforcement side of the business into a whole own legal entity. Uh, and now we, every company that had a defense or law enforcement, uh, business sector. Yeah, we've all been required that you, now, now you're gonna be renaming and rebranding under the brand defense technologies' name. So in the last year we've been, uh, really hard at work separating Stoger Canada from Brand Defense Technologies, [00:04:00] Canada, everyth like that. So, uh, brand new booth, uh, brand new, uh, well brand new patches. Brand new brand, well branding across the board. Yeah. Uh, we are in the process of actually, uh, legal making it a legal entity in Canada. Okay. Under, under that, under that name. Yeah. And, uh, my email just, uh, this past week changed from Stoger Canada to Debra Defense Technologies Canada. So gotta find a new place to [00:04:21] Travis Bader: send [00:04:21] David MacDonald: all these memes to you. Yeah. Okay. [00:04:23] Travis Bader: Um, so. Breta. Interesting. What 500 years coming up Next year will be the 500th anniversary, so they're one of, if I'm not mistaken, three, maybe like I did a little bit of research before, I should probably just plug it into ai. But there's like three family run businesses that have been around for that length of time or longer. Some, some crazy small number. [00:04:46] David MacDonald: Oh yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I think you can count on one hand how many actually are still that, and then I think we're on our 15th generation. It's still run by the Saxon family. Uh, they're, they are, uh, they're, the next generation is getting ready, uh, to come up and start taking [00:05:00] some more interest in the business. So, uh, and they're still heavily involved. Uh, I'll be at a show next month Yeah. Out in the London uk. And typically the one, the brothers just will show up like that. And, uh, and y you, you would, you think they'd be coming in, in like an entourage, but he just randomly shows up in like, just either a suit or even just jeans and a dress shirt and next thing you know, you're talking to Franco or Pietro and you're like, oh, oh, how are you doing, sir? Not, not surrounded by [00:05:27] Travis Bader: security. No, not at all. [00:05:29] David MacDonald: No, they're, they're, but, uh, uh, it's, uh, just incredible that we, we working for still such, it's one of the things that I would say gives us a bit of advantage in the industry. We're not owned by a shareholding group or a, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, you know, a credit, uh, you know, group of companies. We're we, we we're still owned by a family, owned by brother. Led, uh, company that, uh, we answer to ultimately to the, to two to two people. Um, and so it's, it's, it's just that, it's really, [00:06:00] it's really an interesting company to work for in that regard, considering we, you know, if you really ever have an issue with like that, it's, it's a real streamlined process to order to get an answer. No. [00:06:11] Travis Bader: Yeah. You know, I've worked with some family businesses in the past and I've seen some really good benefits to that, but I've also seen the, the difficult side of the family business and for a family business to be around for 500 years. Yeah. Like, holy crow, those Italians know something about family, that's for sure. Right? That's [00:06:27] David MacDonald: for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, it's almost they're bred into it at this point or like that, but Yeah. Um, and you know, Andretta mean, we, we, we call it Breada everyone. A lot of people know the company, obviously the manufacturer of Beretta, but the holdings group. Hope it just contains so much more, uh, within the group. And like that a lot of people don't rec realize. So, [00:06:46] Travis Bader: okay. So let's break it down. 'cause I don't even think I know all the things that happens within the, in the full holding group. I know that they're a large company. I know that they've got their fingers in a bunch of different, uh, pies. What, what's their [00:06:59] David MacDonald: [00:07:00] totality? Uh, so, you know, a lot of people are surprised to learn that, uh, Beretta, uh, uh, owns Benelli competitors in the market. Yeah. You know, uh, just as an established and, uh, you know, the leg like legacy company within fi with the farms community. Yeah. Uh, but they're, they're we're all sister companies together. So they're sister companies. Um, you go, they're, they're not that far. They're in two different valleys within Italy. You go down to the us they're literally, the offices are next to each other, uh, down in, uh, side in Washington, DC Yeah. Uh, we also, they own, uh, probably two. What? Well, two of the probably Great, you know, best. Bolt action precision rifle companies in the world, they own Sacco, Antica, Uhhuh. Uh, and in that, you know, you can't have a, you know, a, a precision rifle company without an optics company. So they also own Steiner. [00:07:51] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. [00:07:51] David MacDonald: And bur the, you know, uh, so you got both the precision, the high end real of super precision military and precision hunting scopes, and you got, you know, [00:08:00] burst, which is excellent scopes in their own rights, everyth like that within the tactical and the, the hunting community. Yeah. Uh, and the most recent acquisition, uh, I'm not even touching on all of them or like that, but the most recent acquisition was in the last end of 2023. Uh, just after, actually I was last year like that. Yeah. Uh, Breta purchased the RUAG group, so five of the world's largest ammunition manufacturers, which closed that gap on Holy Crow, on what we can provide. So really, we all, we are a full service provider. Yeah. And, um, where does, you know, brand defense technologies or Stoger Canada, which is the commercial side come into play, is that we are owned. We're not, you know, we don't have to, we don't, we're not a, um, a partnership agreement with Breta where we're under a contractual agreement, which can, you know, you know, end or be, uh, or be terminated or like that. Breta purchased our company years ago, back in the early two thousands. So, um, we are owned directly. We actually represent, we are essentially the factory of all those companies within Canada. So [00:09:00] I've told, I've told, you know, some of the services, I'm gonna meet with a couple of them tomorrow and like that. And it's, um. If they have an issue or they want something or they need, you know, a detail. Just today I was talking with a service, uh, needed a detail on one of the tikas rifles they had. [00:09:15] Travis Bader: Mm. [00:09:15] David MacDonald: And uh, it was more of a technical question involving, you know, what kind of, you know, powder on the round they should be using or like that. Yeah. And the bench I have is, it's not me, you know, sending an email through a, you know, a direct list of chain of middlemen or like that. It's literally just calling the, you know, the production manager over at Teka or, and saying, Hey, I, you know, I have this question. And he gets back to me within, you know, based on his own timeframe and the time zones. 'cause we're dealing with Finland here, which is, you know, a couple hours ahead of us hours. Yeah. But, uh, based on that, he can usually get an answer within a day. Yeah. That's crazy. [00:09:47] Travis Bader: So, yeah, I went over, I, so I was in Finland, went over to, uh, the factory there, and I saw their operations and I was, I was blown away. Blown away by a few things. So the Finnish culture is, uh, a little [00:10:00] different than what we're used to over here. A little [00:10:01] David MacDonald: bit. Yeah. A little bit. Similarities in, in their own right. Which is interesting like that there's, there's, it's almost like it's, yeah. [00:10:11] Travis Bader: Well, you'll tell a joke and they'll just look at you and then later on they'll say, that was a really funny joke. Yeah. [00:10:17] David MacDonald: Yeah. They, they do do that. Um, but I find that the culture of kind of, you know, obviously they're really big on their saunas and, but they're really big on being in nature. Yeah. Uh, but I, I literally heard last time I was over there, we were, uh. We were jump, we were going into this lake or like that, and they warned me ahead of time, Hey, it's not so bad once you get in. And I'm like, that, no, that's our saying, man. That's, that's a, so a bunch of Americans were with us and they're like, what does that mean? I'm, I'm like, well, you're about to find out. [00:10:44] Travis Bader: Yeah. You know, everyone looks at jumping in a lake as being a terrible thing. Oh, it's gonna be so cold. I don't know if it's freezing outside and the top is frozen, you know, the water underneath is actually gonna be warmer. Yeah. Than, yeah, exactly. [00:10:55] David MacDonald: Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, the, the cul factory is, is [00:11:00] incredible. Now, uh, did they, did you get to see the, the meeting room upstairs, Uhhuh where the all all the, the history of the guns? Yeah, that was great. [00:11:07] Travis Bader: So that was recently redone, they said Yes. Yeah. So that, and that was like part of their original, um, yeah. So they had all, all their old guns, their whole museum. Um, we got the, the full tour of it and the, the history of it and, uh, learned about the different, uh, models that they're making. Actually one of the guys there, um, Mika. Was it Mika? It's [00:11:29] David MacDonald: probably Mika. That's it. Yeah. It's usually either Mika USO or Mika Tuka, or, yeah, that's, so it's, it's very, very, very standard finished names, but yeah, Mika, uh, [00:11:37] Travis Bader: m Mika, yeah. Was Oh, so Mika, or Mika? Mika given the, uh, given us a tour around and, uh, he was showing, like, I guess when he was in university, he approached 'em and he says, you know, I've got some design ideas and I got some, uh, things that can make it better. And I said, okay, come on in. Show us what you mean. Yeah. And then a lot of the new things that are coming out are things that, that he brought into fruition. Some of their top sellers actually. [00:12:00] But yeah, that was, that was a neat place. Uh, the history behind everything was neat. I went in, I wanted to take some pictures, I wanted to do some video, and, um, they said, Nope, no, we don't want any of that. Yeah. Oh. Okay. Well like what? You know, like I'd, I'd love to show people what you're doing. No, no. Just come on in. This is cool. We, we want you to come in. The hospitality was crazy. Yeah. I guess that's what I'm getting [00:12:21] David MacDonald: at. Yeah. Uh, it and don't and so you don't Yeah, don't feel bad. I'm not allowed to take photos there either. And I work for 'em directly like that. So it's like, so don't, don't, don't feel bad there at all. Uh, yeah. If there's a strictly no for, you know, photography rule in a lot of places. 'cause they want you to actually come in and actually witness with your own eyes not stuck behind a camera. And you get like, kind of almost a disconnect there. They want you to see the craftsmanship and the skill they're putting into their pro. Like, uh, a lot of people don't realize like their, their ammunition of their factory. Mm-hmm. Every cartridge is inspected a hundred percent before it leaves a factory. My average check rates are, you know, less than 10% on most ammunition. Lots. They check a [00:13:00] hundred percent every single one to make sure it is. You know, meets the standards or like that every barrel from the SA factory is inspected by a person before it gets installed on a gun. [00:13:10] Travis Bader: That was one of the things that I thought was interesting. Mm-hmm. Because you look at the crazy machinery they have for automation, for precision, CNC, and then you get down to the human inspection part and they say, you know, we put 'em through the machines, but you still can't beat the human eye for being able to spot some of the, uh, variances, like if you're barrel bending or straightening or whatever you're gonna be doing. And I don't, I don't really understand how that is. I don't understand how we can have AI and space age machinery yet. We still can't match the precision of what a human can be able to. [00:13:46] David MacDonald: Yeah. I I, I don't, I don't know either. I mean, and a lot of the machinery in that shop is actually still relatively new. Yeah. Uh, a lot, some of it, up until 10 years ago, those, those rifles were still made essentially by hand. Yeah. Um. [00:14:00] Production and demand has grown to the point where they needed to bring some machinery in [00:14:04] Travis Bader: Uhhuh. [00:14:05] David MacDonald: But, uh, I was just, I was having another email this morning with one of actually, uh, a Montreal, uh, service member. So one of the things that we have to keep on, we're always stressing on the guise, is that, uh, when you're, when you're buy a sack or you're buying a tika, the barrel is not like another rifle. Mm. The cold thing. They've, they've figured out a way, some sort of magic how to do it. They're cold heel for they're cold hammer forged. Yeah. And so at today they, the, the guy contact me saying, I put 3000 rounds to the gun. I've been told this is, now it's time to change the barrel uhuh. So how do I do that? And I'm like, uh, your barrel light's not even at the halfway point yet. Mm. But it's, uh, I, I've personally tested, uh, a SCO TRG. Yep. And we had 30,000 rounds of 3 0 8 through that barrel. And it was still shooting just fine. It's to the point now actually Sacco no longer does, they no longer bother doing round counts anymore. [00:15:00] [00:15:00] Travis Bader: Really, [00:15:01] David MacDonald: they ran out of ammo before they blew the bur before they burn the barrel out. That's crazy. Uh, so instead the the way actually, and this, anyone who's listening to this remember this because I, you know, uh, it saves me a lot of time on my email. I not having to explain this anymore like that. So the way Sacco determines a barrel has reached the end of its life mm-hmm. Is if you have more than six centimeter shift of point of impact from point of a. Mm-hmm. And not, or at, and a more than five, 10% drop of velocity mm-hmm. At the muzzle. Okay. If those, and it has to be consistent. Okay. We all know that muzzle velocity changes has lots of other factors that can affect it. Uh, so it has to be consistently happening repeatedly over and over in time again. Or like that if it, if that happens or like that, and you have those, both, those things happen. That's an indication. Something's going on with your barrel. It's time to come in and get it inspected. [00:15:58] Travis Bader: So say that again. It was [00:16:00] 6% and so it's six, six [00:16:02] David MacDonald: centimeter shift. Six centimeter in point of impact. Okay. From your point of aim. Yeah. And a 10% drop in velocity at the muzzle. Hmm. So [00:16:09] Travis Bader: you need both of [00:16:10] David MacDonald: those things. Both things, things happen consistently [00:16:13] Travis Bader: across the board over multiple shots. Okay. So anyone getting the rifle to begin with should get things zeroed in, have a decent idea of what their average velocity's gonna be like, and that way they can then have a baseline on [00:16:24] David MacDonald: it. Yeah. [00:16:24] Travis Bader: Just [00:16:25] David MacDonald: like, yeah. And there's always outside factors, you know, like that. Like if you're hand loading and you're hold loading super hot rounds, it's gonna burn your barrel lot faster. Yeah. That's an unknown factor that we can't speak to or like that because, uh, there's certain powders that work better than others and like that, uh, but when you're dealing with commercial grade ammunition or like that, I can tell you these things, these barrels can go for thousands more rounds than what, uh. They, you know, and get the other thing, get off the forms. Oh yeah. You will hear 10 different re uh, things from people on. Oh, it's kind of changed it. No, it's not. Yes it is. No it's not. Yes it is. No it's not. I'm telling you, [00:17:00] I'm the from the factory guy. Yeah. This is this, this is the golden rule. Like that, those two [00:17:05] Travis Bader: factors. It's funny how, um, you get on these forums and there's a lot of experts on there and you know, there are people mm-hmm. Who know what they're doing. Absolutely. They know what they're talking about. But, uh, I, people just go a little overboard into the minutiae and all these little things that don't actually move the needle. Mm-hmm. When it comes to accuracy, when it comes to issues. Uh, and very often what I find is human factor plays such a big role, but everyone's so quick to point out, oh, it's gotta be this, it's gotta be that. And I think you and I were talking about this before and I was given the example of a, uh, certain agency that I was doing some gun plumbing for and getting a phone call saying, oh, hold on a second. One of our guns isn't working properly, only to show up and find out that none of the instructors had testified it, they're going off the word of one of their students, and they weren't able to reproduce it. They had me fire it. I wasn't able to reproduce it. Then I had to do the [00:18:00] tap dance of being able to help the instructors save face for not doing the first basic checks that you should do, which is if you're having an issue, give it to somebody else. Do they have the same issue? Can they replicate the same thing? Yeah. Yeah. Because the human factors is pretty crazy, and he, and you get on the forums and they're gonna tell you, send it back. Use a thing as a club that's no good anymore, or whatever it might be. [00:18:22] David MacDonald: Well, and, and, and, you know, and you're right, I mean, I've run across agencies and, you know, my almost 10 years of doing this, that they've identified an issue, which, okay, we have, we, we take everyone seriously because of course we, we have to, especially when you're dealing with law enforcement or military because, you know, potentially lives are at right at at risk here or anything like that. You know, you, you need, they need to know their equipment's gonna be good when it needs to be earth like that. But inevitably we, we hear what the problem is and we're like, okay, uh, well that hasn't been seen anywhere else in the world. Mm-hmm. Okay, so send it in, we'll take a look at it, everything like that. And then one, [00:19:00] one or one or two times. Okay. That's, that's maybe indication. There might be, you know, maybe a potential defect or something that we weren't aware of. So, uh, everyone, even the best manufacturer in the world, keep in mind, we're still human. [00:19:11] Travis Bader: Of course [00:19:12] David MacDonald: mistakes do happen, but when it happens, t and if it's a 16 problem happening multiple times, that's when I started being like, let's look at your procedures here. Well how are, how are you actually doing? 'cause maybe it's something here that could be fixed with just a simple tweak in the training or something. Or Yeah. Or we need to maybe review your torque settings. Uh, 'cause sometimes, especially when we're getting from Europe and all what's in nanometers, they don't necessarily understand how that relates back to inch pounds or god forbid, foot pounds, you know, like that. If they decide to go with that, if they get really confused. So if you, if you can get foot pounds outta the inch pounds and it's still, it doesn't snap on you holy [00:19:46] Travis Bader: crow, like you're asking for trouble. [00:19:47] David MacDonald: Yeah. But, uh. But yeah, I mean, we, we run across, uh, you know, that it's all, but education is why, and it's making sure that, uh, not only is the initial cadre. That, you know, if [00:20:00] they receive a new weapon system or a new site trained on it, we gotta make sure that training is maintained within that service. 'cause guys retire. [00:20:08] Travis Bader: Yeah, let's move on. I think that's the, so, you know, a gun manufacturer sends a lot of time and energy to research what's gonna make it absolutely the best possible product that they put can put out in a way that's replicable. And then people get in their hands and the first thing they want to do is like, okay, I'm gonna change the stock on it, get some chassis, and uh, maybe I can get a different barrel and I'm gonna get a threaded for a muzzle break. What kind of trigger can I put on? And they start taking all of these things out and putting something else in. And it's, I get it. It's fun. And the gunsmithing portion seems to have gone by the wayside over the year, and it's more parts replacement mm-hmm. Or armor type stuff that people are doing, but, but it's, it's like tinker toys, right. For adults, they'd like to get in there and kind of move it around, but you can expect to stick your finger in the bowl of water and not expect to see some ripples. [00:20:56] David MacDonald: Yeah. Right. Uh, you know, that's a great way of putting it. And I [00:21:00] can tell you like, some of the guns we get coming back to our service and warranty center, uh, it, it's barely a bread of product anymore, potentially like that, where it's like, okay, well, we'll, we'll service what we can, but half the stuff like, it's such a Frankenstein gun at this point, like, and as you said, I get it. And especially I would, I would say in a lot of the, uh, movies in the last 10 years that have come out where you see the really high speed, low drag guns that have been really, really customized and. It, you know, for the movie to make it look good and guys want to do that, and I don't blame them. I, I'm, I, I see it and I kinda wanna do it as well like that. Sure. Um, I get it. I totally understand it, and if it works, it works and that's great. But when something doesn't work and we, you don't necessarily know what you actually did in terms of how much work you've done to, it's, it's like the, uh, oh. Uh, not to offend anybody here, but it's like the, it's like the girl who can't remember what her original hair color is anymore. Like that, like the, the gun is no longer in its original [00:22:00] states. And for us to fix it, we kind of need to figure out what you did. [00:22:04] Travis Bader: I, I think the training side, well, I mean, I'm gonna be biased here. I've got a training company, but I, I think that's a huge thing from a, um, an OEM manufacturer side. From a marketing side, I, it's amazing what you can accomplish from just a, a gun straight outta the factory and use it the way it was properly designed to be used before you start putting all of these different things onto it. I remember, uh, Bourne Identity when, uh, uh, Matt Damon there, Jason Bourne, and he's, uh, got himself a, I think it was a break action shotgun, and he's gotta use a, probably using, uh, seven and a half shot bird loads or something like that. Right. But it's not about the, uh, high speed, low drag gun the person's got in their hands. It's about the tactics that they employ and their ability to actually hit a target. Mm-hmm. And use these things. And I watched Meg pull. Do this back in the day where they started putting out training videos and they made some nice [00:23:00] produced glitzy kind of training videos. Uh, basically if you use our products and you put 'em on the gun, you're gonna be able to shoot faster and shoot straighter. But really all they're doing is showing people how to properly use again. Mm-hmm. It didn't really have anything to do with the products, although that was a great sales vehicle for them. And it also allowed them to circumvent advertising issues because they say, well, this is product safety and this is training that they have. This is not, we're not advertising it. Right. So I, I thought that using the education piece was important and you see it with like, you know, some of the handgun manufacturers that have, uh. Their, uh, one day course, which could be done in half an hour. Right. But it's, they spend the entire time talking about the history and the this and the that. And, uh, what they're doing is they're creating salespeople themselves out of every person that comes on through. [00:23:51] David MacDonald: Well, yeah. And, uh, you know, we're, we're a little guilty of that as well, and we do Sure. Do a whole briefing of the, because that it is important to know the background behind the company and the manufacturer when we're [00:24:00] doing, like, say like a Teeka Armor course or something like that. Yeah. But it'd be, you know, a lot of people are surprised. One, one of my favorite facts about, uh, Teeka is that, you know, they're one of the only gun companies in the world. Well, they are the only gun company in the world to have been owned by the Red Cross. That's right. They were to, to avoid being, you know, sucked in during, during the Soviet occupation or anything like that. Right. Yeah. So, um, that's just a cool, that's just a cool factor, like, like fact about the company. Right. But, but going back to the point is that like, I, I, I wanna make really clear, I'm not hating on anybody that wants to customize their gun. Oh. That's what makes it fun. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's the same reason why people, you know, customize their cars. They custom, like, there's a reason why parts exist. Yeah. And especially at, I would say in the current environment we have in Canada surrounding guns and gun legislation, uh, where you dely can't buy. Yep. Uh, any more of a certain product or something like that. But you still own it and you can use it. Well, what else? Where am I? Where am I gonna put my money here? Like that? I'm gonna probably put maybe making it a little more customizable for myself [00:25:00] or like that, and make it, make it a little easier or a little more fun to fire or a little more fun to use. Um, [00:25:05] Travis Bader: so you're talking about certain things that we maybe can't own anymore. Um, how has that, if we're talking about, let's say the handgun freeze in Canada mm-hmm. How has that affected things for stoger, for Bri defense technologies, and do you have any thoughts on where things might be moving in the future? [00:25:26] David MacDonald: Yeah. Okay. Um, excellent question. A tough one. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I, I'll preface of saying that this is simply my opinion when it comes down where it would head to the future, anything like that. Uh, 'cause you talk to 10 people, 10 guys in a room, everyone's gonna have a different opinion of where this is gonna go. Uh, but in terms of how it's affected us first. You know, I, we've been lucky enough at Stoger and at Breaded defense that, uh, it really hasn't affected us too much. Is that, uh, the hand it, it, it, it did hurt. Uh, sure. You know, it was about, it was a big segment of our business that has, [00:26:00] you know, now is no longer there. Uh, but our bread and butter's been more what a lot of people would consider the safe firearms like that. I guess if you wanna call it, if call you safe. Got it. Uh, your bolt actions, your, you know, you're over under shotguns. There is, you know, but we, we we're like everyone else. We also do a lot of semi-autos. We have, we, we, we've been just as a nervous and, but also advocating within, you know, the different circles that, uh, you know, that we, we do serve a, you know, a distinct and important. Part in the community, or like that is, and, and in society with, in terms of conservation, in terms of, you know, hunt responsible and respectful hunting responsible and respectful shooting. This is not a scary thing. Mm-hmm. And we're trying to, you know, uh, advocate for that as much as possible. But, uh, yeah, there's definitely other manufacturers and, and distributors and dealers out there. The dealers are, you know, the worst hit. And we feel for them. And we see that in, you know, in our dealer network and like that, that this is, and these [00:27:00] are just people trying to run a business just like anybody else. They're trying to, you know, uh, they just decided to get into this business because it's, I mean, they're passionate about, which I think anybody who's runs a successful business must be passionate about what they're doing like that. Yeah, I agree. Um, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're, you know, bad people in the community. They're just trying to run a business and, you know, create a sport. Just like any other sport out there, like dad and help support that. Uh, and they, you know, they pay taxes. They, you know, they're just any other like, you know, uh, business pillar in the community as they should be. Uh, so, uh, yeah, it, it definitely has hurt them. Where I see where, you know, this might go if you, if you asked me, you know, six, seven months ago mm-hmm. We knew kind of where we saw where it was kind of going like that. Now with new government, with new government, well, newer newish government, it's really hard to say. Uh, we know with all the commitments that have been announced for defense spending, [00:27:56] Travis Bader: Hmm. [00:27:57] David MacDonald: That money just doesn't come from nowhere. Mm-hmm. [00:28:00] And, uh, I don't, you know, it's, it's billions of dollars they're gonna have to put to make the 2% NATO margin by March. Billions even more to spend to get to the 5% they say they're gonna hit by 2030, so, mm. Um. They're gonna have to do cut somewhere. And I just read an article on the way here, actually it was on the fer or anything like that. And they're talking and it was just a article of, uh, well, a great place to start. That cut is by this gun grab. I read that as well. Right. I read that was in the National Post, I think. So it, it, to have, there's been no forward movement on [00:28:32] Travis Bader: it really. So, um, they had a, so they had a buyback program in place for businesses. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't look at what the actual numbers were on it, but I, I, from what I understand, the numbers of firearms that were bought back far exceeded what they even thought was out there. Mm-hmm. And these are all guns that are tracked and they should know of because of the business license conditions and, um. If they're estimating a [00:29:00] number for the civilian population, they have no idea. They have no idea what's out there, and the number's gonna far exceed anything they ever thought of. And there's no way to tell when they've achieved their goal either. Sure. Yeah. So they're gonna have to start a program and leave that program running indefinitely. I mean, it's, it, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. I see the gun bag buyback program as something that's not going to, uh, be effective. Uh, both because it's gonna cost way too much money. Like it's mm-hmm. Incredibly, incredibly expensive to offer a proper buyback program. Yeah. Uh, they could just decide they wanna ban it instead and backtrack on a bite on the, um, buyback. But again, they don't know where all these [00:29:43] David MacDonald: guns are. Well, and, and the, the, you know, I'm sure there'll be people out there that will correct me in the comments or like that, but that even, you know, from my understanding, the way it works also in, in the Canadian, you know, system, is that when you decide to ban something that's legally purchased property, you can't [00:30:00] just say it's banned. You can't use it anymore, and that's it. Um, they have to offer fair, like when they, when they go in eminent domain, your property. They still have to offer you fair market value for that property. You still have to get, they can't just take it and say, get out, see you later. Like that, like, um. [00:30:17] Travis Bader: Which might be why they talk about grandfathering, but of course that brings in another issue. And recently the CCFR put out this urgent video on, I think it was last Friday. So whenever this podcast comes out, people will have a bit of a timeline and man, they came under a lot of heat, everyone. Mm-hmm. And their urgent thing was, uh, go talk your mps and here's a PDF you can give them, and we're gonna try and push for a grandfathering program. Mm-hmm. Well, in order to grandfather, you also have a defacto registry that you're gonna need. Yep. They're gonna need to have. Yep. And, um, there are a lot of question marks of over why that organization decided to go this route and announce such a thing on a Friday night. Yeah. And then push it out. I mean, there's, there's a lot of [00:31:00] internal drama and, you know, the firearms community's known to be able to fight within itself and [00:31:04] David MacDonald: uh, yeah. Right. We are our own, we all our own worst enemy. Sure. Um, I. Was at a, uh, a town hall a couple years ago in Pickering. Okay. With, uh, and there was a couple of the, the local mps from the conservative party there, and it was a, you know, a really well attended mm-hmm. Hall. And we got through about three questions to the mps before a verbal, you know, shouting match happened between two of the attendees with each other or like that. Mm. And it just kind of, and I'm like, yeah, that didn't take long to, for, you know, one guy to accuse a guy from some about something else. And then, you know, and then of course there's the one old guy that stands up and when are you gonna bring back the, you know, maybe you're gonna make 12 sixes legal again. And it's just like, I. Yeah. It's like, guys, we get on track here with the, with the, the message or like that, right? Like it's, everyone has their, their own skin in the game. And I, and it's, it's understandable, but it's, you kind of need to be united at this exact same time or like that, which is very difficult, uh, amongst our community, [00:32:00] unfortunately. Right? So, [00:32:01] Travis Bader: yeah, I, I don't see it, you know, everyone says, well, it doesn't affect me. It's only for the handguns. I don't have handguns. It doesn't, it's only for the hunters. I don't hunt. It's only for, so the hand gunner are an important piece of the puzzle for the gun stores because talk, talking with the gun stores, they say the hunters, they come in, they buy their rifle, they get it all kitted out, and that was a great sale. And they come in once a year and they get more hunting ammunition. Yeah. Right. The, uh, the sports shooters are the ones that are coming in, getting lots of ammo, getting new kit, getting accessories, and the handguns, of course, is a big portion of that. And so if people want to have a place where they can get their hunting rifle and their hunting shotgun, they're gonna want to speak up when the hand gunners who are basically subsidizing this store to be able to stay open. So when you, we talk about, hey, people gotta rally together and get on the same page, you know, I, I did a podcast, uh, with a fellow who owns a suppressor manufacturing manufacturer business, [00:33:00] uh, KGM mm-hmm. In the states. And I, I got some people trying chime in. It's like, oh, that's all well and good, but seriously, why are you talking about suppressors and why they should be legal? And like, you should be looking at these issues right here and now. Right. And okay, we're always gonna need people to hold the line, but you're also gonna need people who can push things further and forward. Yeah. 'cause if all you're ever concerned with is holding that line, that line moves back, okay, hold it there. That line moves back again. Okay. Hold it there. Someone's gonna have to push that line in the other direction. Yeah. And what I could see is the, uh, when I try and look at this and I don't have the answers, and I try and find out, talk to other people who might have the answers, I see some of our gun advocacy advocate. I see some of our gun advocacy groups as being very, very good at raising, uh, donations and memberships by speaking to their base and perhaps not [00:34:00] putting the same efforts in, in areas that could actually move the needle forward or unite communities. Mm-hmm. They'll fight with each other. They'll, uh, uh. You know, I'm, I'm gonna be cautious about how I go here 'cause I don't wanna be tearing down certain groups because [00:34:15] David MacDonald: everyone does. No, listen. Every every group has its place and advocacy is incredibly important. I agree with you. Uh, one of the things though that I've always thought that we should be advocating more towards is it's really, it's, it's really simple to send me, you know, email blasts and you're advocating, as you said to the base, but why? But we need to be advocating and speaking to the non firearms owners. 'cause there's lots of uneducated people out there that don't understand the, the, the, i, I know a lot of people. I think, actually, I think last time we heard, we talked about during COV, a lot of people got educated about what it means to actually own a firearm. Because I know I was getting contacted by people saying, I wanna buy a gun. Cool. Uh, what's your pal? You know, just gimme, I need your pal so I can verify it. What's a pal? They just didn't know, like they didn't know they needed a [00:35:00] license. They didn't know they needed to go through like training. They didn't know that to take the, you know, the, the pal, the PAL course. They didn't know all, you know that oh, your weekly, you know, your daily is subjected to a background check or like that, like we say these things, but how much of that is getting out beyond just the base of the firearms owners and now to the general public. But at that town hall meeting, I remember I talked to the MP and I said in my previous experience with, uh, wounded Warriors, uh, when Winters Canada, where was, uh, we talked about, you know, advocacy for, uh, veterans with PTSD and first responders with that as well as their fa as the families. And we found a huge component of that was education, not only of to the families what was out there, but also to groups, the regular everyday population, but also to the government of kind of, this is actually what these men and women are facing. Um, here's what you need to improve. And so I asked, I told the mp and I'm like, one of the things that I think would be really helpful as a government. Would be to create a [00:36:00] simple information portal of anyone who's interested in owning a firearm. Here's the steps you have to do, which is, it's all government run, you know, the PAL course, the safety course. Yes. It's, it's run by the F-S-C-S-O, but it's essentially, you know, government mandated and, you know, regulated or like that to provide an education platform for anyone who's interested in, you know, you know, purchasing and owning a firearm. What it takes to get there like that. Uh, unfortunately I was told, well, that's, that's your responsibility, not the government's responsibility to, you know, provide that education. Uh, so advocating for the base is excellent. Firing it up is great because you need to have that. But, you know, as you said, we do kinda need to unite a bit better, but we also need to educate the population that doesn't understand what's what we, what we go through to own a firearm, what we go through to be part of that community, or like that. [00:36:52] Travis Bader: I, I think there's a number of steps that are already in place that people. Like you say, they don't understand, but you know, I don't know. You're not gonna convince the people who [00:37:00] don't like them. No, no. Uh, the people who do like 'em, you don't have to convince. Right? Yeah. Because they, they already like 'em for whatever their reason's gonna be. But the, the political side, I, I, I think personally, uh, educating. The base as to how to properly approach politicians. Mm-hmm. Yeah. In a respectful way. Yeah. How to apply pressure properly. And so that if, let's say, and how, how to form a, a cogent argument or a, uh, something that would be politically, um, distasteful for, uh, somebody to want to wear if the conversation shifts, if it's, Hey, we're gonna ban guns because look at all the shootings. Uh, no more guns, some more shootings. Right? That logic flow is easy to digest. Yeah. Yeah. In a quick tag line. Right. But the reality of it is, okay, we've been taking all these steps to ban and shootings are going up, or crimes going up, right? Yeah. Where is our, uh, [00:38:00] where are our efforts best served? And I think it has to become politically convenient for, uh, people to. Uh, to be able to speak out in a certain way. 'cause I, I think there's a, like, we look at cancel culture, right? And, uh, I see cancel culture kind of going by the wayside. Uh, people are, that was at, at least it doesn't have the same push that it had before. Mm-hmm. Uh, but people like to belong and they want, they don't want to be found on the wrong side of an argument. And, uh, everyone else is saying a certain thing. And I guess it's easy enough to do. Like you see that often enough. How do you make it easy for the masses to push together in a way that's gonna be beneficial for everybody, for, for the masses, right? Mm-hmm. And including the gun owners. And, and I think, uh, that's where our efforts have [00:38:47] David MacDonald: to be. Uh, uh, yeah. I would, I I would agree. And, uh, to your comment, uh, that, you know, you're never gonna convince someone who doesn't like him. And you, you're right. I, like, I, I liken it to this. When I was in, um, college and I was taking, uh, I was in [00:39:00] firefighter training and I was part of my medical training, they said, uh, 10% of the people. No matter what you do are gonna die. Sure. 10% of the people you run across, no matter what happens to them, are gonna live. Sure. It's that 80%. That's the, that's the group you need to deal with with like that. And I, I, you know, I just a quick, you know, point before we get to the second one you said, but I've been in the homes of, you know, I, I die a diehard, you know, some diehard, you know, liberals or diehard anti-gun people. And then they ask, well, why do you need a gun? And I'm like, I don't need one. [00:39:32] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. [00:39:32] David MacDonald: I, I enjoy having it. It's, it's a privilege I've earned and this is the steps I've taken to do it, but I can't just walk around with it, you know, in my, like, on my, it's not like in the US I can't walk around with it on my, like, I, I don't, I don't have a carry permit or like that, like that doesn't exist so much. And it, it's hard, extremely difficult to get in Canada. I don't just walk around. There's a, there's rules to transporting these guns. There's rules to storage. And after explain all this to the person, they're like. Well, that makes sense. Hmm. Okay. [00:40:00] Like, I understand that and I'm like, they didn't know that before and all of a sudden it, they may still not think, oh, I, I don't want a gun. Hmm. But I understand necessarily why you want one. I understand the steps you have to take then to get one so you're not convincing them, but they're not necessarily, and then now, so diehard kind of like, well, I didn't know that had to happen. If that's the case. Oh, okay. I guess I'm okay with it. If you guys want one, they don't necessarily need to be the one, they don't wanna necessarily want to have to have the, be the one that actually buys it or own it, but all of a sudden they're no longer as hardcore about me owning one. [00:40:31] Travis Bader: And I, and I think you're right. You don't have to convince other people of your side. And I think that's a, a losing battle. Mm-hmm. Um, but having them. Asking some questions. No. Opening them up. Yeah. Why do you need a gun? Well, some people actually do need a gun, right? Like some people, not everybody lives in the city. Yeah. And some people who live in the city probably need a gun. Yes. Yeah. [00:40:52] David MacDonald: But, uh, but definitely, but like, yeah, you're right. I, I have friends who are farmers and like that, and they have, you know, they, they, they need one on their property. Why do [00:41:00] they want, well, because they need to defend their, you know, what their, their, you know, their, uh, their animals. They need to defend, be able to defend their property from large breeders. They need to be able to themselves. If they go out with like that, uh, you know, why do you hunt? Well, 'cause I enjoy it. Or like that. Well, aren't, don't you feel bad about, you know, taking, you know, killing a deer? No, because I have a tag, because they've done studies to realize that we're allowed to take this many deer without affecting the population. In fact. We're making sure that everything's in a, in a healthy balance. 'cause if there's too much of a certain, you know, animal like that, it's no longer a healthy ecosystem or like, you know, same thing. Why do you fish? Well, because I enjoy it. Yeah. For one. Um, and two, it's because I'm allowed to do it. And because you can't have too much of one thing. It's like you, you can't eat too much pizza or you can't have too much McDonald's 'cause you're not gonna feel good. Yeah. It took me a long [00:41:50] Travis Bader: time to put that correlation [00:41:51] David MacDonald: of it. Of course we can do whatever we feel like that. Yeah. Like, like we still do it, obviously, but, uh, but you know what I mean, it's that it's the whole, a lot of people don't understand like that, that [00:42:00] the conservation, you know, and hunting isn't just about going and killing an animal. It's a one. You know, and people ask me, uh, I'm not really a, a waterfowl hunter. Sure. 'cause I don't really like duck. Sure. I'm a big, I'm a thing. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hunt something that I'm not gonna eat. I [00:42:15] Travis Bader: agree. Uh, [00:42:17] David MacDonald: I have friends that love waterfowl hunting. It's just not really my thing or anything like that. I like, you know, I'll hunt deer, I'll go Turkey hunting, uh, you know, and I'll go, you know, farm it and stuff like that. I help out a friend's, uh, farm and he's like, you can hunt on my property, but if you see a coyote, you got, you shoot it. Yep. Okay. No problem. 'cause there's rules. Yeah, there's rules around that. I'm helping 'em out, but, uh, I, by not just a, you know, it's just not really, it's just not my thing. And again, I might get some hateful comments there, but that does, it's just, but it's because I have a, I have, I have a rule in my head that I will, I'm not gonna kill someone that I'm not gonna eat. Right. Yeah. No, I don't think you get a [00:42:50] Travis Bader: hateful comments for that. Yeah. You know, there's, I'm still surprised by the number of people who don't know that you can actually still buy handguns in Canada. Mm-hmm. Um. [00:43:00] So for employment reasons, if you need it for your job or for work, you can, you can go ahead and still buy hand guys. You can. Yep, yep. There are provisions there and there's a lot of people who don't actually understand the totality of what that means. And if they, so I've, I, without going too far into it, if they're interested, they can listen to past podcasts. They, with Rachel Atilla. Mm-hmm. Yep. She got her authorization to carry, purchased some pangan. I put together, I think it was 30 pages of, um, material for the National Firearms Association. You can download that for free, step by step shows you, will, you meet the criteria. What do those criteria look like? And, 'cause I think it's important that people like absolutely don't push things in, in a way that they're not supposed to be pushed. Yeah. Don't find a workaround in a way that you're not supposed to find a workaround, but be educated as to what the rules actually are. Yeah. And, and, uh, I think people can be pretty surprised at how many, uh, individuals. Still qualify for purchasing a handgun. [00:43:59] David MacDonald: Yeah. Now I [00:44:00] will say, going back to the defense and law enforcement side of this, ever since they decided to put this freeze and this ban, 'cause they froze handgun sales, but they also banned imports, uh, initially right now with the exception of government agency. [00:44:14] Travis Bader: Sure. [00:44:16] David MacDonald: But, but when they banned the imports, they actually banned it. They just blanket banded earth like that. So everything, it took a little while for us to figure out how to actually get handguns back in the country, and it is still very difficult really to bring handguns in. Uh, so what they've, by doing it, they've also made it very difficult to bring handguns in to support. Law enforcement agencies and military agencies within Canada. Um, it's, uh, an ex, there's a, used to be, I'd just be able to apply for an international import certificate, an IEC, right? That's no longer allowed. Really? I have to apply for what they call an arms ammunitions permit from Global Affairs. Well, I can't, but I, as a, as a manufacturer, I can't apply for that. I have to get my customs broker to apply for it. Right? And to do that, I have to have [00:45:00] commercial invoicing. I have to have FRT, which is the registration completed. I have to have list of serial numbers from the manufacturer. It's a whole long list of stuff. Is it something we've kinda worked out now and we kinda guys, we've as a smooth trajectory to do now? Yes, we do, but it's an extra, it's a couple extra steps. That initially, I remember when they first, when they first put the freeze in, and I had a client come to me and say, okay, we're we wanna order a thousand more handguns? And we literally told 'em, we don't know how to do this. Wow. 'cause now there is no vehicle to do it. Wow. And it took us six months with working with Global Affairs to figure it out. Six months. And meanwhile you have an agency that can't get their duty issued firearms because, uh, so when that, when that occurred or like that it's all No, it's all been smoothed out now. But again, are you surprised? [00:45:45] Travis Bader: Well, no, but you know, because, uh, it always. I, I don't know. It, it always makes me scratch my head a little bit as to like, number one, why it would end up like that. Like the, that no one can bring it in. Number two, what had to happen in order to be able to, uh, [00:46:00] figure out a way around, would that be policy interpretation? Was new law created [00:46:05] David MacDonald: and, uh, not that I'm aware of. Or like the arms, the arms emissions ity existed, right? I guess they just found, okay, here's a vehicle where we can do it now with, like that. So they kind of switched over to this, but, uh, it just, it, when you put a blanket ban on something, you don't realize that it affects, you don't, it's hard to exempt something when you, when you, you know, like, so it was an interesting, uh, a couple years, a couple years ago. It was an interesting couple of months there like that, but [00:46:27] Travis Bader: I believe it. But I, I guess that goes to the point which, and most likely they found another way. There's already something in there. So there's the letter of the law and there's the intent of the law. Mm-hmm. And, um. If they're able to find a different way around it, that means basically the intent of the law is being applied through policy. Mm-hmm. Uh, through civil servants whom we don't elect in or out. Nope. Nope. And who will maintain through governments, and I'm finding just not on the business side, but the [00:47:00] individual side, the ability to navigate the, the civil servant bureaucracy is, uh, it's an art form. It's not something Yes. It's definitely not something that I would, that comes natural to. To me, and I've gotten a lot of coaching and assistance in how to be able to do that. But that's another area where I think the, uh, the general firearms wanting public can use help from their mm-hmm. Uh, different. [00:47:23] David MacDonald: Well, and, and I'll tell you like Travis, so over nine years of this job, that's something I've had to, uh, really work on trying to navigate and, uh, work to, you know, I work with all. The government agencies. 'cause I, I have to [00:47:36] Travis Bader: Mm. [00:47:37] David MacDonald: Uh, and the government no bureaucracies because otherwise nothing gets, nothing gets done on my side. So. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm pretty, you know, you learn to be pretty well versed on it, but it's taken years to get, figure it out like that. So it is not the average person, unless you are constantly bidding on government contracts or like that, why would you know about the bureaucracy process to, [00:47:55] Travis Bader: but it's a [00:47:55] David MacDonald: game to go through it, right? Yeah. It's no [00:47:57] Travis Bader: hate against the [00:47:57] David MacDonald: individuals in there. Absolutely not. It's no hate [00:48:00] against, they're doing, they're doing a job. They're just like anyone else's. So like that. And it's not that they're, you know, they're not trying to make, you know, things harder for you. They're just working in one office in a, in a very big system. [00:48:11] Travis Bader: Every once in a while you'll find that one individual who will, uh, make things really difficult for you. You'll find that one individual who will make things really easy for you. Right. It's just like. Policing or anywhere [00:48:23] David MacDonald: you, you would find that in at, at a line, at the drive, anywhere Starbucks [00:48:26] Travis Bader: or like that. You're always gonna find that 1% policing or just switched straight off Somebody like that. [00:48:32] David MacDonald: Yeah, [00:48:32] Travis Bader: that 1%, that's terrible, but that 98% that the masses are going to be just, we're humans. Animals. Yep. There's a reason why animals have game trails. It's because they find a safe path. They take that safe path. Yeah. It's a path of least resistance. And that's the area that I think that individuals in the firearms community can use the most help on is how do you understand that game and [00:49:00] that safe path. So you can allow the civil servant to do their job in a way that doesn't make them look bad, allows 'em to do it in a way that they've got accountability and defensibility and they're showing the public they're doing the right thing, but also allows you to get where you need to go. Yeah. And now I remember Dave Tomlinson, uh, deceased many years ago, but he started the NFA, I think he started it, but he was basically the NFA for a number of years, and he put out this, um, authorization to transport a cheat sheet. And prior to him putting that out. The firearms program says, okay, you've got a restricted firearm. You, if you want to transport it, you're gonna need a separate document. An authorization to transport. Yep. Yep. So you fill this out. Your, your firearms license is good for five years. Your a TT is good for one, two, or three years. How long do you want it to be good for? Right. And so people have to fill it out. What time of the day do you think you're gonna transport it? So they fill it out, where are you gonna transport it from? Well, and from my house over to the rings. And they fill out the name of the [00:50:00] rings and they go through this whole thing. Dave Tomlinson says, hold on a second. If it's good for three years, pick three years. When are you gonna transport it? Well, why would you want to be a criminal if you're transporting outside of the hours that you put down because your car broke down or because there's a traffic down. Yeah. 2,400 to 2,400. Uh, what range? All approved gun clubs are ranges. So he created this sort of thing. The firearms program looks at it and says, yeah, okay. I guess that makes sense. And after a while, nobody had to fill out by this cheat sheet. They just knew how to issue it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was easy for them. Made sense. It was easy for the individual. They play, played by the rules, but you always need those outliers who can objectively look at it and find a way that allows the, um, civil server to do their job and save face. And that's something, that's why I created that template on a, on ATCs. Mm-hmm. It's not a cheat. It's not a workaround. It just tells people who's actually eligible for it. Yeah. And, and, and how to do it. And I think if we can start pushing. Those sort of things, we might [00:51:00] find more effective change on, uh, our ability to use guns. Yeah. Yep. As opposed to that one, the civil server one. And then the, of course, the political side of which I'm, I'm not a political guy. I, I talk to other people much smarter than myself. It is an [00:51:15] David MacDonald: art, uh, to manage politics or anything like that. And yeah. That's, it's not something a lot of people don't have a lot of PA lot of politicians don't have the ability to work the political system. Right. That, let's face it. Sure. So it's a, it's, it is an art form and there's some, there's some people out there that can just do it expertly like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, and they have my respect that actually that they can actually survive in that, that that arena. Because [00:51:38] Travis Bader: if they can do it with integrity, well, yeah. Hell yeah. As long as it, yeah, that's, I say as [00:51:41] David MacDonald: long as they do with integrity because Wow. Um, but, uh, but it, it's a difficult, difficult system. But I agree, I agree with basically everything you're saying is that like, you know, that you, you need, we need to be able to be a little more educated, a little more ability to work within the system that unfortunately we have to. That we live with in Canada and we need to be able to, um, [00:52:00] you know, utilize it to the, uh, our, our, our benefit a bit more like that. Right? So, but by educating ourselves on how to do it, [00:52:07] Travis Bader: and I, and I think if people look at it from a different perspective, 'cause there's just us against I mentality that I quite often see and I get where it comes from. I mean, when there's so many rules that are put on an individual or on a group, all of a sudden they start making their own rules. 'cause they wanna feel like they have Yeah, yeah. Their own control over things. And then they, you find these different subsections. But if you can learn how to use the rules or change the rules politically or through, uh, the civil servant process, uh, maybe people will start playing together because they understand how that game is played. And yeah, maybe. Yeah. And, you know, I don't have it fully fleshed out on the, the path forward, but it's something I've been thinking about lately as to. How businesses, organizations, individuals can, uh, achieve an ends that meets public safety needs and allows civil servants to [00:53:00] show their due diligence. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:02] David MacDonald: Well, and, and I think, uh, you know, most gun owners out there agree that, you know, like we, we play a huge part in the public safety aspect of it. Mm-hmm. And we need to, in order to, we need to, you know, like in order, because it's important for us to, to have everyone to, you know, for us to be seen as we're agents of safety. We're not agents of chaos or anything like that. Like we're, we're here to, yeah, we wanna defend our right to own these things and use 'em, but in a safe and respectful manner to everyone involved, something like that. So, uh, we need to be, have, we need to be on, you know, the, on that, a voice on that board of public safety, uh, you know, with everyone, you know, with within the conversation because. We need to prove, you know, that's part of it. The, the whole talk and communication everyth, like that we, you know, [00:53:43] Travis Bader: well it's, it's how you comport yourself, I think is big. But I also think that the more that people harp on a certain issue, the more they make that issue the thing in the spotlight. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it's like I, I've always been advocating for like, why, why do we make the gun the issue? Like if, if [00:54:00] shootings are a problem, the gun's not the problem. The shooting's a problem. Yeah. Right. Gun violence is just violence and someone chose to use a gun or whatever it might be. Yeah. Why don't we look at the violence issue? What, what's that coming from? Right. Yeah. Is it, um, um, is it low income? Is it, um, uh, lower education? Is it, um, drugs? Is it at risk? Like, all, all of these different, like how do we approach it without falling into the same trap of looking at the tool, the implement as opposed Well, it's, it's [00:54:29] David MacDonald: easier. It's really easy to blend the tool. Yeah. It, it is over. A, the larger problem as a, as a whole or like that. And, you know, I, I, I, I, yeah. It's, it's a men mental health is a, it's a tricky, I haven't worked in it for years. It's a, it, it is a tricky, tricky thing to try to wrap your head around or like that. And it is so many, it's a, such a layered problem. Um, let's [00:54:54] Travis Bader: talk about, so you had a child mm-hmm. Last time that we were here and, [00:55:00] and, uh, so [00:55:01] David MacDonald: what about three years old now? Uh, he is three and three and a half now. Yeah. Yeah. Just, uh, three, three and a half going on 10. Uh, it, it feels like, uh, yeah. How's that working out? Yeah. You know what I, I mean, I, it has completely changed my entire outlook on life. I mean, you hear this from lots of parents and like that, but it, it really has. Okay. Why and how, tell me, uh, prior to having him, I would exp you know. My de I was dedicated to my, you know, my, my partner. I was dedicated to my job. But, you know, both those things can trade off each other, what I was doing that day, or like that, I can honestly tell you that, and, you know, this isn't, my boss may be listening to this or like that, so it's nothing, I'm not dedicated to my job there, George. Uh, it hasn't, but it's, my entire life is now, everything I do is basically dedicated to hammer like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, with both also trying to maintain myself and, you know, my relationship and like that. So, [00:56:00] but it's, um, and it's, it's, it's, it's difficult, especially like I can't raise in the way I was raised. I was born in the early eighties. I grew up Sure. I grew up to, to boomer parents. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, they, they, if you wanna call me, I guess you would call me a millennial or like that, but, uh, what they call the el, you know, I've heard that term, elder, millennial. I grew up, you know, I grew up still being able to, you know, go home and come back when the, you know, when the lights turned on or like that. And there was no, you know, smartphones didn't exist that my fir when I went on my tour, you know, at Afghanistan, smartphones didn't exist yet. Like that, like, so, like iPods were around, but that was 2008, I think 2008, 2009 was like that. Yeah. Like I didn't get my first smartphone, I think till 2011 or something. Yeah. So I didn't grow up with, you know, that, that, that type of technology. And, uh, so, you know, like I, I admit like, you know, like if I opted out or anything like that, I got hit. Sure. Well, you can't do that anymore like that, I guess based on if you've You can, you can, but, but [00:57:00] that's, it doesn't work. It's, it's not seen the same way. It doesn't work like that. So I'm trying to navigate this much i's a bunch of parents out there and, um, yeah, and it's just. He, he's great. You know, his personality's coming out now. It's, you know, it's fun. Like, uh, I was on the way over here actually driving over from, uh, from, uh, we're staying downtown, uh, yeah, Vancouver and I was driving over here and he was talking on the phone. He's back in Ontario, so this is the three hour difference he's getting ready for bed and he, not, not a proud moment for me necessarily, but he drops his first FBO F-bomb to me about that on the phone. And I'm like, oh God, buddy. What'd you learn that word from? I like dad thinking fully, well, it's probably me. Uh, it's hard to take the army out of the guy or like that, and I, I, I have to be really, I have to watch my, my wife's constantly telling me, you know, watch your French or anything like that. I don't take the [00:57:50] Travis Bader: guy outta the army. Can't take the army outta the guy. [00:57:52] David MacDonald: Yeah, [00:57:53] Travis Bader: but you, you talk about, you know, you can't hit him. When I, um, had my first kid, I looked and I was like, why [00:58:00] would anybody want to hit, that's their child. I have no interest in doing it either. Like, yeah. Before I had my child, I was like, well, I just, I guess that's normal, I guess, how, that's how things are done. And I thought about it. I says, well. Like I was stubborn. Stubborn, stubborn, stubborn. Maybe ODD, what do they call it? Oppositional defiance. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like super stubborn, right? Uh, and A DHD. So that was diagnosed at grade three, severe A DHD, and, and I look at it. Okay, so you hit your kid and do you get compliance? Maybe, maybe When that threat of hitting is over top of them. Yeah. What happens if you don't, then what do you do? Do you hit harder? That's it. Right? Well, at what point do you stop? Yeah. Right. So if at some point you gotta stop, maybe just don't start. Yeah. And it's amazing how much, um, better I found the ability to raise a child by. Giving them a layer of control and that that doesn't mean that they've [00:59:00] got, they, they run the show. Yeah. They, everything. They go, it's like, do you wanna go to bed now or do you wanna go to bed in 10 minutes? Like, either way they're going to bed. But if you take away their control, they no longer have the ability to be able to do things 'cause you're bigger and stronger. Um, they don't learn how to deal with problems. It's a world of hurt for yourself. Yeah. And, and for them. [00:59:20] David MacDonald: Well, and have found, like, it, it, I mean, I, I shouldn't be surprised that already a three and a half. He's stubborn as all hell. He's, he's, he's a mixture of my, my, by myself and my wife. He's Irish. I'm, I have s Scottish and Norwegian background. Not exactly the most cl known to be the most compliant people on earth. So, uh, so he's, he, you know, and already he's uh, you know, pretty, pretty stubborn with of stuff. But is he testing my patients? Absolutely. Like every day, anything like that. But it's also found that it's. You know, I improving myself in order to be patient, which I wasn't really all that, uh, not my strong suit. I will fully admit. It's not, uh, uh, the only time I've ever been patient up till [01:00:00] now, essentially, is when I'm behind, you know, a rifle scope on a long distance range where I actually have the ability to kind of just calm down on a little bit like that. But when he's yelling and screaming and crying and I have to sit there and just kinda hold him while he gets through his fit or like that. Mm-hmm. That's, that's a whole other, that's something I, I, I wasn't capable of until I had him. But [01:00:18] Travis Bader: that pushings important too. Right. And when you reframe the, uh, the problem, so you've done it in, in a couple ways. So, uh, sometimes I look at people that are really difficult to deal with. I'm like, wait a minute. They're teaching me how to deal with difficult people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So if I can deal with this person, everything else is gonna be gravy, little mental reframe, same situation, but easier. Right. For me and for them, uh, when they push, like I tell my kids, you know, it's good. I'm glad you're pushing. It's important you push because if you're not, you're not growing. Mm-hmm. Um. However, there's ways that you can push and find success and there's ways that you can push that's gonna define your getting your head against a brick wall. Yeah. And so really quickly you start teaching 'em how to push and how to push in a way that'll, like, I [01:01:00] want nothing more than my kids to not need me and Yeah. Be a hundred percent want to be with me, not need to be with me. Yeah. Right. And, uh, I think they both reached that, that have at an early age, and thankfully they still want to be with me. [01:01:14] David MacDonald: Well, I, I, I'm, I hope one day he gets to that point. 'cause there is, there is definitely times through the day where I'm like, just gimme a second. Okay. Like, could you not? But again, he's probably still really young, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, but when it came, like, one thing I was not prepared for was, uh, and I, we had read all up about, uh, you know, like, uh, about postpartum. Yep. Getting ready for potentially with, you know, with my partner like that, supporting her during the process. I was not prepared for myself Mm. To go through a battle with depression. Hmm. [01:01:50] Travis Bader: Right. [01:01:51] David MacDonald: Yeah. No, that's it. It people don't look at the guys Yeah. When they, when they go through it. Yeah. And I, I mean, as we talked about in the last time I was here, anyone who you [01:02:00] know, was, is meeting me for the first time. Uh, I, you know, have PTSD related to my mil military service from my last tour. [01:02:07] Travis Bader: Yep. [01:02:08] David MacDonald: I battled, I've been battling for years. Uh, it was back in 2012, I almost lost my battle with it. Mm-hmm. And I attempted to, made a, made a suicide attempt. Thank God it failed. Mm-hmm. And, uh, but I was at one of my lowest moments at that moment, um, was, you know, I can't even kill myself. Like, how much of a loser am I that I can't even do this or like that. And I managed to, we, you know, through help from outside sources as well as, uh, just, you know, being who I am, I was able to pull myself out of it. Thank again, thank God. Mm-hmm. But, and I've been, I've been really good for the last couple years and then, yeah, all of a sudden it was maybe a year ago that I just suddenly kind of fell back into a pretty deep depression earth like that I realized I was kind of, I felt just kind of alone in the whole thing. I thought that of how did you realize that [01:03:00] you're falling into the depression? What did that look like? Really compensating throughout the day? Compensating. Compensating throughout the day, acting like everything was good. 'cause I felt I needed to, I felt I really needed to around my partner to be supportive. I really felt I needed to be right. I, around my son, showing him a strong, you know, uh, character and a strong person in front of him that would, you know, kind of lead him through some stuff, uh, being, you know, reactive and, but being, you know, present at work. But then when I had my times. She'd put, you know, when he'd gone to bed and sometimes, often when my wife would put him to bed, we, we'd take turns to do it and everything like that, but sometimes when she'd put him in bed, she would fall asleep as well. 'cause it's really easy to fall asleep with a little child on top of you when they're nice and calm and they're nicely breathing. It's really, it's really like, that's even better than, that's better than any calm app or anything in front of you like that. Like, uh, so it's really, really, you know, that's, that's like her happy place. But then I'm by myself for a couple hours and after I've done all the dishes and the cleaning, I've [01:04:00] realized the house is quiet. [01:04:01] Travis Bader: Hmm. [01:04:03] David MacDonald: And then all of a sudden I realized that the house is quiet, but it's not quiet in my head. And, uh, just, you know, I felt like alone or like that and kind of just like, uh, and I, I recognize. This path. 'cause I'm like, I've been down this before. I don't like, I, I know, I know where this is going or like that. But, uh, why, why am I feeling this way? I have a great job. I have a family. I have my son. They're all awesome Earth like that. What, why am I feeling like I'm not needed? Why am not wanted? Why? Like, why am I feeling I'm not good enough? [01:04:40] Travis Bader: And this is why I ask. Because you've been down the path. Mm-hmm. Not everybody has. And if they start going down that path, they might not realize they're actually on a path. Yeah. And, and being aware. And the other thing I find in our community, in the gun community, nobody wants to reach out for help. Yeah. Nobody wants to talk to a doctor. Why? Because secondly say, [01:05:00] oh, having some issues, is a doctor gonna now say, oh, firearms license gone. And maybe that's, maybe that's your big hobby. Maybe they've got a big investment in there. Maybe it's a big part of their social group and their life and all the rest. And I'll say this much. Most doctors won't. Oh, yeah. Most, uh, psychiatrists, most, there's always gonna be an outlier, but the vast majority of them realize that there is a separation between these two. And that worry that the gun community has. Yeah. Go talk to someone. Well, [01:05:28] David MacDonald: it is no different from all the advocacy I did prior to when I was still with wound Warriors, and still to this day still do a little bit. It like that is that a lot of, a lot of police officers, a lot of firefighters, a lot of military members, they, they think if I come forward with my prom, that's the end of my job. That's the end of my career. Mm-hmm. They're gonna boot me out. They're gonna see me as weak. They're gonna see me as, it's the same, you know, I, my site, when I, when I finally, you know, when I reached back out and I got help with my psychiatrist, it was never the question. [01:05:55] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. [01:05:56] David MacDonald: Well, you shouldn't have guns then. It never even came up. Right. [01:06:00] It was just, okay, how can, how can we help you right now? Like that she knows I own guns. We've talked about it. She knows what I do for a living or like that. It was, wasn't even because of changed. It's not gonna change. She, it's nothing's, that's not gonna be a factor or anything like that. Right. We know historic, historically and statistically suicides are not actually, people don't choose guns to kill themselves with. Statistically it's many other factors they can choose, but the majority of suicides are not done through a gun. Um, see, even though, even if you have one in the house, [01:06:31] Travis Bader: so I, some of the statistics, and I might not be up to date, women typically offer pills and men, uh, will typically opt for a firearm from what I've seen if, if they've got that availability. But it's possible. Um, but, but a rope is a lot more common. [01:06:46] David MacDonald: Yeah. I have found, and, and, uh, you know, um, I, I told you before I came out here than my dad, so since I was last year mm-hmm. Uh, I've lost two more friends and I can tell you neither of them. Chose a gun [01:07:00] because they wanted to leave. You know, like I, I've talked to people who've survived it. Mm-hmm. And myself, having survived my attempt, I wanted to leave my body intact for whoever found me. Yeah. I didn't want it to be a closed casket for them Earth like that. If they, so they wanted, if they wanted to say goodbye. I don't, I didn't, I don't like the idea of an open casting myself, but it was still something I didn't wanna leave. Well, you don't really [01:07:23] Travis Bader: want somebody coming in and cleaning up that mask. No. And if that's part of the thought process, that's good. That's healthy. That's, uh, I, I think, um. Some people, they just reach a point where they just don't care. Yeah. And, and I've said this one on the podcast before, but I remember one doctor saying, you know, I've taken this approach and I haven't lost anybody yet. Knock on wood. And he says, somebody comes in and they say, you know, I've got suicidal ideation. I am, um, I'm really depressed. I don't see why I belong here. No one's gonna miss me if I'm gone. I think, um, I'm doing more harm than good. All all the typical stuff that comes up Yeah. Which is completely off base, [01:08:00] but that's your perspective. Yeah. At the time. And the doctor says, you might be right. Yeah. Maybe killing yourself is the right option. However, right now is, you're not in the frame of mind to make a proper decision. Let's, let's circle back three months from now. Let's try a few different things. If it still comes back and it, it turns out that you are actually a big loser and the world would be better without you, then uh, then we can take a look at next steps for you. Yeah. He says to date never lost somebody. Yeah. If they're able to just push forward past that and provide a little bit of an alternative perspective as to their situation. Yeah. Because like another friend of mine, Jay Bud, he's talking about, you know, the darkest days. He has, he likens it to, um, and he said this on the podcast, so it's not like I'm out outing someone. Um, he was in Afghanistan and um, was a sniper with them. So he likens it to being in the hills in the mountains. He'll go out and it's a big old [01:09:00] storm and it's dark and it's blowing and it's hard. And he gets into his shelter and some of the best blueboard days he's had is the day after that when it's all blown over. Yeah. And you have that comparison and if you know that there's gonna be something else on the other side, but yeah. You just gotta be able to hunker down for now. Yeah. [01:09:17] David MacDonald: And like, uh, so I, I remember I, I saw there's this video that every once in a while creeps up, but like it stuck in my head is that it was just a. It was, uh, just asking out there into the ether. Um, you know, men, who do you talk to when you're, when you're sad? Nobody, every single guy interviewed No one. Or they're like, no one, no one gives a shit. Yeah. Or the, or the ones I don't tell anybody 'cause it'll be used against me. Uhhuh. And it's just line, a line of men just going like, one guy's, like, we can talk to people like, whatcha you talking about? Like that. And, you know, and that kind of leads down, you know, the algorithms in social media. Then that leads down a just video upon video of guys just saying, [01:10:00] uh, not necessarily all bad videos, but just, uh, of like the videos we see where it's just men, not men being misunderstood or men not being understood about like, why, or being emotional and like that, but no one can, they can't talk about it or things like that. And then, or, or you get the, the, the Chris Rock video where he is like, you know, only I. Yeah. Three things in life or love unconditionally like that. Sure. Your wife, your dog, your child. Mm-hmm. Men are only loved for what they provide and stuff like that. And like, but like you start hearing these things and stuff like that. And that's where it's kind of, it's fun at first, but this is also, if you're already in that depressive state, I can tell you that's where, that's where social media starts becoming an ugly thing and not, you already are in a bit of a fragile state and now you really start believing it. And that's what, that's kinda what was happening to me a bit as well. And I just felt, so I have, you know, and I, I have two or three friends out near where I live out in Durham region. All of us, I have young kids. [01:10:55] Travis Bader: Yep. [01:10:57] David MacDonald: And I started, you know, and a lot, all [01:11:00] of us had served in the army together. We were the closest friends back in the day. We, like dad, we all had worn the uniform together. Some of us are, one of 'em even works in the same industry as me, like in, and we're probably no more than 15, been a drive away from each other and. Other than the occasional call during the year, we never talk. Yeah. Why don't we get together, you know, and hang out. No one makes the call, no one decides. They like, well, no, we're busy or anything like that, but I guarantee, but like, why, why can't, why can't we do that? But I guarantee if you did reach out and call, they wouldn't say, they wouldn't say no. [01:11:36] Travis Bader: No. [01:11:36] David MacDonald: Like, so it, it got me, like, and then that got me and it got me kind of thinking like, why, why can't we do this kind of stuff? And, um, during the, like the, my partner, you know, God bless her with like that, she, uh, uh, I say I'm not really religious, but I'm saying God bless her. Yeah. Because, uh, she, she's not oblivious or anything like that. She knew I was going through a tough time and like that, but she didn't quite know [01:12:00] how, how to deal with it. And something that like, that shakes me into my core today is that she told me that, uh, lemme turn up a little bit here, but she told me. Yeah, I know you're going through a hard time and every time you would go back in the house after we went out to the cart mm-hmm. And were in there for a couple minutes, I was, I was terrified I'd walk in and you would be no longer with us. [01:12:22] Travis Bader: Yep. [01:12:25] David MacDonald: I wasn't suicidal at this point, at this time around. I can say that for a fact. I, I wasn't, I wasn't gonna kill myself. I was just going through a deep depression and it got me, and I started, you know, researching a bit more. And it's like, well, I, I ran into one of the, my buddies that said that one of the trade shows, 'cause he was also there and we were just kind of talking and I said, well, you know, how you doing? He's like, oh, I'm good. You know, like the girls and this, and Karen's like this and my friends. I'm like, cool, but how are, how are you doing man? Right. I'm fine. Cool. How are you doing? Mm-hmm. And he is like, [01:13:00] um, kind of kinda lonely, man. Yeah. Yeah. Let's hang out, man. I, so am I. Let's go, let's go to the range someday. [01:13:10] Travis Bader: Yeah, [01:13:10] David MacDonald: right. I'm a member at like three different ranges or like that. Let's go shooting. We used to do it a all the time in the army. Why can't we do it now? Or like that, right. You got some cool [01:13:19] Travis Bader: guns too. [01:13:20] David MacDonald: Yeah, well, well there's that too, like that. But yeah, the guns, I can still use on the range as well, but I'm like, why can't we, why can't, why can't we do this now? Just 'cause we have kids doesn't mean we can't hang out anymore like that. We can't hang, let's go hang out together. And it just got me kind of thinking. There's lots of different groups out there, and this is, I wanna preface this by saying this is not, you know, at any point, bringing down mothers, women, our wives, our partners, and like that they need support just as much as anyone else's. But you know, like you hear, I, you, you see like, there's lots of groups out there, uh, mommies and me and uh, mommy and me groups and stuff like that, and where they all get [01:14:00] together and they hang out with their kids, but, and I see. I, I've taken my kid to gymnastics. I've taken to swimming lessons. There's more and more fathers are more and more involved in their child's lives than they ever have been before. Oh yeah. Historically, huge. A generation. But there's no father and me hangouts, father, toddler hangouts are like that. Like we don't get together and do that. We take our kids to the thing, we are involved in their lives or like that. And then when everything goes to sleep, we're kind of left our own devices and everyone's gonna say, Hey, he, he's being quiet downstairs. He's relaxing, he is gonna go work, or, or he is gonna go out and, you know, mow the lawn or work out or work on his car, or something like that. Like the, the typical stereotypical, you know, bullshit, whatever it is like that. But why can't we, you know, form support groups for ourselves as, as men, and acknowledge the fact that being a father is a, despite all the great things, it is being a father and a partner, it is lonely as hell, man. It really can be. [01:14:54] Travis Bader: Yeah. [01:14:55] David MacDonald: Well [01:14:56] Travis Bader: it depends on how it's [01:15:00] approached. Yep. Um, I think it's lonely quite often because we make it lonely for ourselves. We do. Absolutely. Some people don't have a relationship with a partner that is their force multiplier. Yeah. Uh, I think putting that time in ahead of time to find a force multiplier that you can work with at both of you guys together Yeah. Is gonna be ma massive. A lot of people, they don't, they don't have that. When I, uh, uh, look at different friend groups, I've, I've made a few notes as you're talking through here. Yeah. And [01:15:32] David MacDonald: I just wanna say like, you know, 'cause again, I know my wife's gonna listen to this and Annie, like, she is my, my solid rock with like that real, like, we, she's the the best person. I want. The fact that she can identify [01:15:44] Travis Bader: these things and. [01:15:45] David MacDonald: It, it doesn't make it any less of a thing that sometimes I just feel like I'm by myself in certain things like that. And it's not, nothing that she has done or not done has caused that. It's just Well, we do it to ourselves. Yeah, we do as this man, we a hundred [01:15:59] Travis Bader: [01:16:00] percent. And, uh, and there's, okay, so have you seen, I think it was Saturday Night Live, they did this skit and there's a group of guys and they're all hanging out together and there's one of the guys, he is like, well, I guess I gotta go. And they all call, start calling him names and throwing stuff at him. Yeah, yeah. You're the worst and blah, blah, blah. And like, just really get mad. And the second the guy leaves, they're like, man, I love that guy. Yeah. He, he's my reason for living. I, and, and they just ask. Yeah. Yeah. They do the same thing again. Group of women. And this woman was like, oh, I gotta leave. And they're like, oh, I'm so soon, we don't wanna see you go. The second she's out the door, they're like. Okay. Now that she's gone, can we really talk about that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And but you know, it's funny because it's, it's true. There, there are these little boundaries in these, uh, games that we play. And as guys, sometimes people think that what's happening when everyone's making fun of 'em or calling names or saying these things isn't because they, they think, well, maybe that's how they feel. Yeah. Because they don't see what's happening behind closed doors. [01:16:57] David MacDonald: Yeah. Like, I mean, there's a, there's a, uh, I remember there was a [01:17:00] class I thing where it's, uh, like a, a, a guy, a guy who was an army guy's gonna go visit his buddy, his buddy in the hospital who was hurt, you know, in the line of duty or like that. And he walks in, what's up, dipshit? You know? Yeah. You can't believe you got outta that one or like that, you know, you really had to blah, blah, blah. Just ripping on each other. Yeah. And then like, and the nurse walks in. Who is that? Oh, it's my best friend. Yeah. And it's, it's true. But we are. Harsher on each other. Like, 'cause that's just like, that's, I guess that's what we, who we are. [01:17:26] Travis Bader: Like it's just, it is. And a lot of people didn't have a proper role model growing up. No. As to how to, how to interact properly. Yeah. And so, uh, when you, and I'm just kind of Yeah. Putting a few notes. 'cause I think you raised some really good things. So when we talk about social media and you know, how, how you can start feeding into all of these things, there is that other side and it's all about perspective. The second that perspective shift happens mm-hmm. Um, things get better, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. And, and that's where talk docs come in because they can say, well, yeah, you're looking at it like this. Like a friend of mine, he is, uh, his [01:18:00] father recently passed away and he's finding that he's getting frustrated at work. He holds a, uh, high. Level job in a leadership position with the government. And anyways, he is like, I don't have time for this, and my family don't have time for, and I'm getting frustrated. And the doc's like, well, do you think maybe this is how you process grief? Oh, didn't see it like that. Yeah. All of a sudden. Okay, fair enough. Different way of looking at it. Same way with your wife. I wasn't sure you'd be with us when you went out to the vehicle and you came back again. You probably didn't realize at that time that that's what was going through her head. And the, so Viktor Frankl, man, searcher, meaning writes a book and he had a, uh, a guy come in and he's like, you know, my wife died and it's an older fellow. And he says, I, I have no reason for living anymore. And, and, uh, Victor Father, modern logo therapy says, uh, okay, well what would've happened if your wife. If you died first, would you like to see your wife take her life? Well, no. [01:19:00] Like, would you like to see her be happy? Yeah. Well, maybe you spared her this grief that you're going through. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's about fi about finding meaning in life. Yeah. Through, through adversity. Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes it's, man, I don't want my wife or my loved ones to feel that way. Okay, maybe I gotta start addressing how I'm looking at this. Does that mean I change my diet? Or I talk to someone or I reach out, or we have this conversation because, um, now I've got a little bit more purpose in a way to approach it. So I, I thought that was an interesting thing just to, [01:19:32] David MacDonald: yeah. And, and you said something earlier is that, you know, we don't, we necessarily. Our generation over hasn't had necessarily that role model to teach us like, it's okay to be vulnerable as a man. Right. That in fact, you should be, I, I was never, I can honestly tell you I was never taught that. No. Because if you showed any emotion, you're weak. You're weak. That's right. Like, what are you, uh, like what are you girl, I know what you're gonna say. You, you did, you want me to go get you a dress for your, you know, like, like, like, [01:20:00] like that's the way we were kind of raised with like that. And now that I have, you know, my son and stuff like that, it's how do you, you know, now kinda about, okay, how do I break that? How do you show healthy emotion? Yeah. How do you [01:20:12] Travis Bader: show working through things in a way that they can then emulate? Yeah. Because you've never had that emulated [01:20:17] David MacDonald: for you. Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm thinking, okay, like I have to be able to, you have to be able to show emotion. I have to be able to show vulnerability, especially to your, you know, to, like I was always told, the only person you ever become vulnerable to is your partner, your wife, and even then. Do it cautiously. Yeah. [01:20:33] Travis Bader: Right. [01:20:33] David MacDonald: You don't want to use against yet. Yeah. And so you gotta be able to show your, you know, your, our, you know, our, our children. It's okay to be vulnerable. It's also okay to be strong. And some of the, some of the strongest thing you ever do is to be vulnerable to someone with like that. Uh, but also, you know, with the, you see, I see it on, you know, with all this whole thing with, again, social media going back to like, how do we get 'em also into loving the outdoors again? Hmm. Loving the, you know, going out, loving, you know, being camp, you [01:21:00] know, go camping, go like, get away from your phones and start living life again or like that, um, in that environment. And what can we learn from, you know, being in nature and stuff like that, that is healthy not only for your mental health, but also for your own physical health. And, uh, I, I take that back to what I was saying with my buddy. Like, Hey, let's go, let's, let's go to the range some day. Uh, you know, there is a mental health aspect that's positive well, to hunting, being outdoors, and the whole firearms committee, which is never addressed, is that this actually can be a positive thing. It actually, uh, for many people it can be a source of bonding for some of us or like that, that, have you heard of the [01:21:38] Travis Bader: Men's Shed Society in Australia? No. Okay. So, uh, it started in Australia. I think it's in a number of other countries now. It's probably in North America. But, um, some bright individuals over there looked at it and said, women will talk about their problems face to face. They'll sit down and say he's, here's what's going on. Men, they don't do [01:22:00] that. They don't feel comfortable doing that, but they will talk shoulder to shoulder, and so you're at the range, shoulder to shoulder. The Men's Shed Society was. Okay, we've got a lawnmower. We have to rebuild. Hey, you've got a belt grinder, you've got a socket set, you've got this. Let's do this project. And the men get together and they work on a project. They're not there to talk about their problems. They're not there to vent about things. It's not a therapy session, but you know what men are gonna end up doing? Little things will come up. Oh, you know, I had a rough time the other day. My kid was doing this. I didn't know how to, someone else says, oh yeah, I had the same thing. Right. Yeah. And it's, it goes back to that Harvard study, 80 years followed, uh, people from all different, uh, ethnicities, backgrounds, religions, genders, all the rest for 80 years, longest study on happiness. And the number one predictor of happiness that they found was having strong social [01:23:00] connections. Yeah. And that's one of the first things that starts to go out the. Door when depression kicks in. Yep. Because mm-hmm. Oh yeah. You'll self isolate. Yep. You have kids. Okay. My, my priority's a hundred percent my kid. And I, and I did that. I went and I looked and I said, okay, if I'm gonna have kids, I made this decision ahead of time. My life's over and I'm gonna give everything I have to my kid. And it took me a long time to realize that's not the proper approach. Yeah. Because if I'm not looking after myself properly, I'm not given a hundred percent. Well, it's [01:23:29] David MacDonald: like if, if I there, you know, there was a, and to this day to a point, I still do if I decide, hey, I know I usually I take him to gymnastics on Saturday morning or like that, but I really want to go and visit a buddy who is in town for. You know, the weekend. [01:23:44] Travis Bader: Mm. [01:23:45] David MacDonald: Can I go do, and I, so I asked my wife, can I go do that? Like, just outta courtesy, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be like, I'm gonna go do this. It's your problem now. Like, no, you're a team, but we're a team, so can I go do that? And she's like, absolutely. And then I immediately feel guilty because I should be taking my son. Like why, how [01:24:00] dare I decide to put myself first or like that? Mm-hmm. Like, I should be, I should be here for my son or like that. And he doesn't understand why, why Even right now my, he's back, I'm here for work. [01:24:09] Travis Bader: Hmm. [01:24:09] David MacDonald: I had no, there was no choice. I had to come here for work or like that. I had to come up to bc It was a trade show. We knew about it months in advance or like that we knew this was happening. We knew this was happening last year. 'cause we, we bought our booth space last year when it was in Halifax. Yeah. For the Victoria show. And on my, on the flight out here, I felt guilty leaving. Be even though, because why? Why did I feel that way? Because I'm not my prioritizing my son at that point. I'm, I prioritizing my wife. I am, I'm prioritizing my job. [01:24:37] Travis Bader: But when you start looking at the reality of it, when you take that different perspective, it's like, what kind of person would I be if I didn't leave home? If all I'm doing is spending that time? Yeah. Yeah. My kid would be sick of me. I wouldn't be my best self. I need to be able to have these different things. And that took me a while [01:24:55] David MacDonald: to figure out [01:24:55] Travis Bader: too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, [01:24:56] David MacDonald: so I'm, and, and another thing like, you know, that, uh, [01:25:00] I learned from my previous, you know, journeys through this, uh, through, uh, PTSD and depression, is that another thing that I think needs to be, you know, definitely addressed and understood, especially, you know, amongst the, the, this community like that is that it's okay to sometimes be depressed. [01:25:19] Travis Bader: Yeah. [01:25:20] David MacDonald: It's nor it's, it's normal. It's a part of it. It's part of it. Yeah. You're gonna be depressed. Um, it's okay. Yeah. Don't think of it as that I've, I'm, I failed again. Or like that like, 'cause I, that, that definitely was going through my head is that how could I, you know, I, I've worked so hard for a decade to get out of this PTSD, you know, thing like that. And now I'm here again. And like that, how, even knowing full well it's chronic, it doesn't go away. It may wear its ugly head. This is all this, all this, I all knew this ahead of time. Mm. And yet it still felt like a failure when I was going through like the really, when it's starting to really sink down deep into it like that. And it had to pull myself back out of it again. But understand that, no, it's, it's. This is fine. [01:26:00] You're gonna be depressed every once in a while. Like that. It's, [01:26:02] Travis Bader: well, if you look at a physical injury, we didn't choose, most people don't choose to break an arm. Most people don't choose to to be injured. But you realize, man, that sucked. Yeah. Okay, well, I guess I'm not gonna be able to use that arm for a little bit. I'm gonna modify how I work for the next little bit, and in a certain amount of time it's gonna be better and I should have a hundred percent functionality back by this time, or X percent functionality back by whatever time. There's a roadmap in place and people understand that and they appreciate it and they expect it, but with the emotional, psychological type things, there isn't any visible indicator. And I don't know why people don't take the same approach as, oh, okay. Indicators are here. I feel it. I can see it. Right. It's not like I've got a big sign out that everyone else can see it. Yeah. Maybe, maybe not. Like, depending on where someone's at, but there's a process here. I'm gonna set my tent up, I'm gonna get find some shelter. I'm going to take these, I'm gonna cook up some food and make myself [01:27:00] Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you know what's gonna happen in a little bit. I'm gonna start feeling better and the sun's gonna come out. [01:27:05] David MacDonald: Yeah. I, I can, well, sure. I can sell, tell you that from personal experience. Okay. You just said you break your arm. Yeah. You know what? That, you know what? That, that cast does everything like that. That's a cool story. Mm-hmm. You're not doing so well in your head. There's shame there. Nobody wants to talk about that one. No. Right. There's there's no cool story there. Anything like that I can tell you because I literally built a, a, a, a slight career off it. My story about how I got my PTSD and my journey, my, the story of how I got it. It's, it's, it's fun. It's cool. I mean, I deployed overseas. I got to do really cool things with the military. That's cool. Yeah. The story, how I climb myself out of it. That's a cool, that's a fucking cool story. And I'm happy to tell that to people like that. And people look at me, they're like, when they hear what, what I did to get there, they're like, damn man. Like that. Like, not every, that's a really cool thing like that. So it's, it's way cooler than any bone [01:28:00] I've ever broken. And as you said, I've broken, I've broken my, a fair share of bones last. I'm like, that's cooler than any bones I've ever broken. Like I tell the story about, well, I, I heal my body after, like that, that was the easy part. Mm. Healing my, my head after. That took years and like that and real struggle, but here's what I did to do it like that. [01:28:18] Travis Bader: How many times can you tell this story without it wearing a bit of a rut into that emotional side? [01:28:23] David MacDonald: It, you know what, it definitely does. Um, and that's one of the reasons why I kind of pulled back from doing some of the veteran's advocacy because I realized that I kind of felt like my story was no longer becoming my story. It just was becoming a sales pitch. Uh, and then so now then, but now I then had to look at it again and saw, well, now I get to reclaim my story. It's no longer just a sales pitch to try to, you know, raise awareness and funding for veterans. It can be, this is a story that should inspire other people who are potentially at a, a pretty dark part of their lives and like that, that it's, you know, you can come out of it [01:29:00] and you could be the person telling this to someone who finds it really inspiring. So, so [01:29:05] Travis Bader: are you able to spot it in others? Are you finding it a little bit more in tuned to see other people or do you maybe projecting or. I, [01:29:13] David MacDonald: I, you know what I, I want to say I, I, I, I think I can. Mm. But, uh, when I lost my buddy this past year or anything like that, that one, that one really shook me. 'cause looking back now, I'm like, damn. [01:29:30] Travis Bader: The signs were there, but you didn't see. [01:29:32] David MacDonald: Yeah. [01:29:33] Travis Bader: What were the signs [01:29:36] David MacDonald: he was, you know, it was just one of those things, and I'm not gonna mention names outta respect for the family, but it was one of those, uh, every time I was in town, he, we didn't live in the same town as each other. We were hours away. But every that time was in, I was coming up, he was always like, Hey, let's you know if you have time, let's hang out. Not, Hey buddy, let's hang out. Like the way he used to, like, let's just hang, let's go get some beers. Let's have a great time with that day. It was more, if you have time. Kind of cau a little, a little cautious [01:30:00] little, you know, like, not if you have time, kinda looking back it was like, if you have time for me mm-hmm. Was the full kind of sentence. I, you know, you kind of could infer there, uh, just wasn't quite as responsive to as, as what he used to be with like that. Still fun. Mm. Still like, I've known this guy since day one in the Army. We literally left on the bus together to bootcamp to, to our, our basic, um, and right from day one, cracking jokes and just, you know, a fun loving guy or like that we, we didn't, we didn't deploy it. He didn't, we didn't deploy together. He never actually deployed, but uh, we fold each, you know, we were, we were, you know, turn, you know, star skiing hutch for most of the trade or like that, right. It's like if he was getting in trouble, I was pretty much beside him for most of the time. Right. Um, and so just this fun loving, great guy. Always there to be a helpful hand, everybody, and looking back as just kinda like, was he in the end there? Was he more trying to be a helpful hand as kind of a way to reach out, just see if he could get some help and, uh, [01:31:00] I just, I, I, I regret not, you know, it's hard to live, it's hard. You always say like, don't live, don't blame yourself, and you don't do with regrets. But it's, it's, I regret not maybe trying to be there a little more form or trying to make more time in order to try to, you know, uh, hang with them when I wasn't town. And, uh, so it, it's, it's difficult. Uh, the ones that you can see the signs on are they're being obvious. They're, they're, they're, it's really, it's unlikely they're gonna, they're at a risk of actually taking their lives. That's what I've seen. That's what the ones that are. They can hide it really well. Mm-hmm. Are the ones that you're gonna be at a funeral atd and you're like, and you're asking, holy shit, this sucks. [01:31:48] Travis Bader: You ever hear the poem Richard Corey? No. Uh, Edwin Arlington Robinson, I think was, uh, the guy's name. He, I don't think he had a, uh, a name for the first, I think year or two [01:32:00] of his life until um, um, I guess his parents or someplace. And they, they threw names into a, a hat and someone out there at a hotel or something. He said, your kid should have a name. And anyways, he came up with Edwin, I guess a guy was from Arlington, so that was his middle, middle name. But he wrote a poem called Richard Corey. And I said, um, I'll see if I can remember it. Um. Whenever Richard Corey went to town with people on the pavement, looked at him, he was a gentleman from sold a crown clean, favored and imper slim. And he was always quietly iray and he was always human when he talked, but still he fluttered pulses. When he said good morning and he glittered when he walked and he was rich, asked Richard that a king and admirably, schooled in every grace and fine. We thought him to be everything to make us wish we were in his place and on We work and went without the meat and cursed the bread. And Richard Corey went calm summers night, went home and put a bullet through his head. [01:33:00] And that poem was always kind of stuck with me. And it's the Richard Coreys that you have to Yeah. Watch out for. Yeah. [01:33:09] David MacDonald: As I said, uh, 10% of the population, no matter how little the injury is. You can't save them. It's the 10 and 10%. No matter how horrific or traumatic [01:33:26] Travis Bader: they're gonna be better in spite of it. They're, they're, [01:33:28] David MacDonald: they're just gonna be smiling through it and they're, they're gonna survive anything that throws their way. Mm. It's that 80% in between Mm. Uh, that we really have to strive to really work to try to save. Um, and I learned that is that, you know, I, unfortunately, the, you know, this is not the only two friends I've lost to two this, you know, to suicide. Uh, this is not the only, you know. There's been others before I hit my last podcast or anything like that. I've also lost another, another buddy with the two like that. And every one of 'em [01:34:00] hurts. Mm-hmm. You know, you question, you know, I, I've learned not to question it anymore of like, what, what could I have done to fix it or anything like that, because probably nothing realistically, if they really wanted to do it, they're gonna do it. [01:34:09] Travis Bader: It's not for you to fix. No. There's nothing that you can fix. You can't take an alcoholic and make them sober. No, you're right. You can't take a drug addict, but you can't take a depressed person and ta-da. [01:34:17] David MacDonald: Yeah. It made you laugh. Now you're better. Right. But you definitely, I think it's this as a group as a whole. Mm-hmm. As, as men, we need to do better than, and you hear this multiple podcasts. You hear this and I, I listen to podcasts all the time where they're like, men need to be better. [01:34:34] Travis Bader: Yeah. What does better look [01:34:35] David MacDonald: like? What does better look like? What does, what does better mean? Anything like that? Do we be better to each other? No, because you know what I, I, I what we were talking earlier about, uh oh, like, you know what's up? You know, you know, you call each other names. You like that, that. Does have a place, there is some sort of bonding there like that. I think that actually that's important. 'cause it kind of is part of our, our If it's done, done in good spirit. Yeah. Right. Uh, it does actually have a place and it makes you kind of feel a little comradery there like that. [01:35:00] Mm-hmm. You know, I, I still call, you know, guys I've seen the years and in the Army I see him again and I'm like, what's up? You know, like, yeah. Dumb ass. You dumb ass. Or remember that time you, you know, you did this or like that. You share funny stories and stuff like that. Right. There is value to that. But, um, so recently, uh, I, I, uh, this, this guy, I know he went up on a camping trip, boys, boys weekend. What do you think is gonna happen on a boys' weekend, on a camping trip? Shenanigans drinking. Sure. Maybe some golfing. Sure. Hopefully no one, you know, you know, gets burned by a firecracker or something like that. But Shena shenanigans is a good way. Like, uh, Tom Foolery had shenanigans. Yeah. And all of this was happening or like that. And, uh, I, I, I took my son to go, uh, meet some of his family members and like that, and they were at like this house at a pool party. And then one of, one of the, the, the guy that I know, or like that, this friend of mine, he was married to one of the, the girls and like that. So it was me [01:36:00] and my son and, uh, and a and a bunch of, and my wife and some of her cousins are like that. And all of them were girls and they're all, I was doing the barbecuing. Mm-hmm. Because they asked me, I was like, okay. And then we were all having dinner and one of the girls said, yeah, he is up there, he is having a, you know, a, a, a great cabin weekend or like that. He's hanging out with his, with his brother, with his, with his, with his boys. They're like, oh, I wonder what's gonna be happening up there, blah, blah. And then she's like, yeah. And they're, they're all gonna sit around a, the campfire and tell each other what they love about each other. Hmm. And I was like, oh man, that'd be amazing. No kidding. That'd be, and all the, all the, the women at the table were just like, yeah, they're shot. Yeah. Because, and I, and what took me back was, why are they shocked? Because they're, we, they also know what this isn't. This is not manly behavior according to what we've been led to be grown up and believe or like that meanwhile, that that was probably more therapeutic for anyone. Those, if one of those guys was going through something at that, [01:37:00] that moment or like that probably would've been more therapeutic and more helpful. Mm-hmm. But, and everyone's like, my God, that's so progressive. And I'm like, that it shouldn't be progressive. It should be the norm. I'm [01:37:12] Travis Bader: wondering when it's stopping being the norm because I, you know, I remember, uh, podcast I did with EB Levo, ex-head of BC's, ERT mm-hmm. For, um, division and, uh, black Belt, jiujitsu, martial artist, super Fit, uh, Mr. Tactical, all the rest. And, uh, he is done his research on, uh, different cultures and the warrior culture, and he's a big advocate for, uh, having a strong heart and strong mind and Yep. Uh, to accompany everything. And, um, you know, you, for a long time, you look at like, let's say Canadian military, if you're strong, that means you, you're physically strong and you can keep pushing. Yeah. And then you don't complain. Right. And, and I was like, um, you know, I, I gotta [01:38:00] wonder, uh, why people haven't. Been incorporating the, uh, the psychological and the emotional and the spiritual side to all this. And he says, you have to ask yourself the question why they stopped, because that used to be a regular part of how society worked, and your warriors were gonna go out and they're gonna fight. But they also had, uh, faith, spirituality, uh, like they, they had these other pillars to be able to help support resilience. And we, I guess in humanity got really, or at least in North America, it got really lopsided on one side of what we considered to be strength. And I see that changing. And it's an asset change. Yeah. It's changing because of these statistics. It's changing because it's, it's untenable. It doesn't sustain itself over the long term. Yeah. Yeah. [01:38:47] David MacDonald: No, I, I, and I agree with you is that, you know, when I, when I first did, when I joined the Army, it was very much a kind of like, as you said, strength was. You're physically strong, you can ruck marks forever, [01:39:00] everything like that. You can, you can just take it and come out the other side or something like that. Yep. You, but nothing was a, you know, and then again, and if it wasn't, you'd be called all sorts of different names and like, that you're weak. You're, you know, you're, you're, you're not fit to be, you know, in the, in, in, in, you know, like things like, you're not fit to be nothing in the army. You're not fit to, you know, be, you know, like, uh, in this, wearing this uniform, in this service and stuff like that. And there, there's a time and place for that. Sure. Mm-hmm. But, but those are [01:39:27] Travis Bader: typically tests. Those aren't tests. Right. But not everybody knows it's a test. Nobody knows why they do it. They see other people do it and they buy into it. Yeah. And some people take it too far. Yeah. But there, those are typically a test to see, are you gonna belong? Yeah. Are are you gonna be beside us when we really need it? Yeah. Yeah. [01:39:42] David MacDonald: Well, that's it. Right. But, but a hu you know, I, I would say the strongest thing I've ever done is admit that I got a problem and I need help. Mm-hmm. And no one, you know, no one I was, that I knew me at the time that I was aware of judged me [01:40:00] for, for that. And so that's the, you know, that's something we, we definitely need to still keep stressing to the, the population. And I, I'm focusing on men here. I think that because it's my own experience, I, I can't speak to what a woman feels like or what she feels during depression or like that. I'm sure it's not that dissimilar. They need help just as much as we do or like that. But, um, there's a reason why eight out of 10 suicides are committed by men. [01:40:25] Travis Bader: And typically men's suicide attempts have a greater level of finality Yeah. Than women's suicide [01:40:32] David MacDonald: attempt. Yeah. So like, and as a, you know, we just, we need, we need to do better as a society. And I'm trying to think, you know, I'm trying to think of, okay, how can me and my role. As manager of defense law enforcement, uh, and as, as a manager, and as you say, like a bit of a industry leader within the firearms committee mm-hmm. How can we incorporate this into somehow helping that in a responsible, safe, and effective manner?[01:41:00] And we've heard of, you know, there's groups out there that want to run hunting, you know, pay basically guided hunting trips for veterans with PTSD veteran hunters. Yeah. Veteran hunters, Todd, he, um, there's always that little kind of like, unfortunately that Chris, Kyle mm-hmm. Incident that like, sure, if we do this, that could happen. Well, you, you go to any range that could happen or like that. So I, I get it As a, as a, as an organization, especially as a charity that wants to support something like that, they have to be very, very careful about the potential liability like that, about something about. But I can honestly say that, that, that a case of that is so few and far between. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's. Veteran hunters vent. Like also like how can we get conservation groups maybe involved or like that, how could we get potentially even the government, like Park Parks Canada organization or like that involved in supporting not just veterans and first responders, but now men as a whole. Mm. Running, we were talking like, uh, my, my son's at summer camp. My son goes [01:42:00] to, why can't we have adult summer camps for, for, for, for men for like, you know, a week where we go away to a summer camp just to be a kid again. Everyth like that. Mm-hmm. That'd be amazing. That'd be fun. Yeah. Right. Like [01:42:13] Travis Bader: you're on the zip line again. [01:42:15] David MacDonald: When I was, uh, when I was, you know, when I was 14 years old or like that, there's a, uh, place in, in Ontario up in Al Park called SOES or Kearney, and you go there, you go there for the summer and I mean, it's a full like four, five week program or like that, but you go there and you've been going there for a couple years as, as you know, as a kid or like that, but my final year there when I was 14, it was. Two weeks at the thing learning, you know, learning portaging swimming and something like that. And then you did a two week portage through Algonquin Park. [01:42:46] Travis Bader: Cool. [01:42:47] David MacDonald: Right. One of the, one of the most memorable experiences of my life, or like that, uh, I mean, I've had some pretty good ones like that. Yeah. But, you know, waking up every morning going canoeing and like that. So Cool. And, uh, oh, and you know, it helped the fact that I was [01:43:00] 14. I got my very first kiss there on my birthday of all things, like, it's a birthday present. Oh yeah. It was like, it was, it was great Or like that, but, uh, dumb that down to a little bit. Why can't we do that now? Or like that, like we can, I, I mean, we can't because we have, we're like, no, we have priorities. Well, I, I need to look after my son. I need to look after my wife. I need to make sure the groceries are, I need to make sure the bills are paid. I need to, but what's the harm, as you said, if I take a week or even a couple days and not have, and not, not worry about that, I. If you have a partner that's a rock. Mm. My, you know, I, I traditionally would always do all the meal prep and stuff like that before I go away on a trip. Mm-hmm. I didn't do that this time around. You know why? Because I looked at my wife and I said, you have, you got this? And she's like, 86. She's like, hell yeah, I do. Yeah. And she, I know she does. Mm-hmm. I needed to, to understand, I need, I needed to accept the fact that she can handle this without, for a couple days without me there. [01:43:58] Travis Bader: It's amazing how capable [01:44:00] we all are. Yeah. I mean, I need [01:44:01] David MacDonald: to, I need to understand that my son will be okay if I'm not gonna be there for a couple days. And like that he has supports. Now, not everyone is in that situation. There is people out there that don't necessarily have that. And I, and I get that it's not gonna be a solution for everybody, but how can we incorporate our community, not only to try to better our community and better speak for our community within the groups and at for advocacy, but how can we also potentially be involved in a greater hole in proving society? [01:44:31] Travis Bader: Hmm. We should, uh, talk offline here because I know a fellow who's, uh, been looking at something very similar to what you're talking about here. And I think, uh, um, I'll reach out to him. [01:44:44] David MacDonald: Yeah. And, uh, he's talking about a, um, some, something that was very successful when I was, and I think they still exist, but I'm not, I'm not sure. But, uh, what were they called? Uh, outdoors Canada or something like that. But, uh, they, they ran, [01:45:00] it started out here actually in bc um, and it's what I went through, but before I went on my climbing Nepal, they did climbing tours. It's like climbing trips for veterans with PTHD. Okay. Okay. And they eventually branched out across Canada, so now they do, like on the East Coast, they do like kayaking trips into the Bay of Fundee and stuff like that. Hmm. And they do, uh, in Ontario they do Portaging and you know, I go in Alka Park or There you go. Uh, you do hiking up in like an Outward Bound. Yeah. Outward Bound. That was it. Outward Bound. And, uh, but it was specifically fo kind of focus more towards veterans and first responders. But why, why couldn't we expand that to society as a whole? [01:45:37] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. [01:45:39] David MacDonald: It honestly is benefit. We know the benefits. It obviously was super beneficial to the veteran community that was suffering from mental health, but I can tell you it's just a small segment of we know how much there is maybe a, maybe a higher. Cases of PTSD amongst at the time coming out of Afghanistan amongst the [01:46:00] veteran community of with p with, with, with, uh, postex disorder. Due to the nature of what it, it was a combat. It was 10 years. PSD [01:46:07] Travis Bader: is still trying to, no one knows no really what PTSD is. They got ideas about it. They got, but even the last DSM has changed how they approach. Yeah. Yeah. And they, I think they added complex P-T-S-D-C-P-T-S-D and, but it doesn't even [01:46:19] David MacDonald: have to be PTSD, just simple depression or like that. Right. It can be, it can be debilitating or anything like that. It doesn't need, doesn't really even need a label. It doesn't need to have a label and it doesn't need to be caused by trauma necessarily. Right. So my second bout of my, my bout of depression or happened last year, had nothing to do with trauma. It is cumulative though. It is. No, it is, but like it, but it wasn't a singular point of trauma that caused that. Right. Whereas in before, when I had my p it was a PSD, my P was caused by a singular incident. In my case, it doesn't always have to happen that way, but when I was going, like the, my, my blast bit of depression was caused by many different factors that were not that, or like that. It was, it was a cumulative of, you know, effort of kind of [01:47:00] feeling I was losing my who I was and who am I gonna be as a person or like that. But you know, I think as a whole, like, you know, uh, how do we better ourselves as firearm owners and as firearms community, we have to be able to become pillars of the community. [01:47:16] Travis Bader: Well, maybe we put that question out to the audience as well, and if people have had similar experiences, if they've. Had experiences that have led to a positive outcome, that things have worked well for them. I'd love to hear about it in the comments. Yeah, me too. I would. And if there are groups like the Mens She Society or like, uh, adult, uh, uh, camp sort of thing that they've found value from that, uh, that have worked well, I'd love to see. Yeah, I mean, I think that would be a really, and you know, as well, if there's within the firearms community, if there are actual endeavors that are going forward. So I know Todd Eey has got the veteran hunters. Mm-hmm. Yep. He's helped with that of Alberta. I think it's spread across Canada. Um, but not everyone's gonna be [01:48:00] a veteran. No. And not everyone's gonna be a first responder. No. But it doesn't mean we can't have these same conversations. [01:48:06] David MacDonald: I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a veteran. Um, I know, I, but I'm also, that was, I'm, I'm a veteran, I'm a, you know, a former soldier, but I'm also now a, I'm a spouse and a father. Mm-hmm. And the, and you know, and. Someone who works as a, you know, a business manager like that. Right. That's who I, that's who I am now. I don't It's what you do. Yeah. It's what I do. But I don't, people think, well, you're a veteran or like that. But that's, that's a, that's, that's, that's what you did. That's what I did. Yeah. That doesn't mark who I am now or anything like that. And my current stresses and my current life, who I am now or like that. But now does that make me, you know, does that mean I'm, you know, like I now need something that's maybe a little more, you know, attuned to who I am. But I know people who even served in the military, but because they didn't deploy, they don't consider themselves a veteran. So they don't apply for the programs. [01:48:53] Travis Bader: Hmm. [01:48:55] David MacDonald: Does there are no less of, their service was no less than mine. Just 'cause I got, I was [01:49:00] talking to a guy just recently, uh, he was, we run a, so a quick, quick plug. Sure. Uh, our so breaded defense technologies, we do run a, uh, individual officer. Officer, I say that, but an Indi Digital Officer Discount purchase program. Okay. So if you were current or ex-serving mil Canadian farm forces of any branch, uh, law enforcement or first responder, you can contact myself or I have now have a new associate. I finally have some help. After nine years, uh, I have a associate underneath me and you can purchase firearms, optics, uh, anything with done are supported brands at a discounted rate. Fantastic. And f We do this, we do this as a thank you for what? For your service, because no matter, but the Kia, that is your service. [01:49:45] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. [01:49:46] David MacDonald: I just recently talked to a guy who got back from Latvia, and when he found out I was, 'cause I was just kind of, you know, ask, you know, asking how it was, and I kind of, he was like, oh, it's a little weird coming back. And I explained, yeah. It was weird for me when I first came back from Afghanistan too, and instantly, once he heard I had been to [01:50:00] Afghanistan, he immediately downplayed his tour as it Oh. It was nothing. It, like, it was nothing compared to Afghanistan. You guys really were it the shit. And I'm like, first of all, you didn't know what it did in Afghanistan. I could have been a clerk just working Sure. In Kro, you know, or like, or you know, I could have been in Dubai or like that. Yeah. Like, like not to take anything from what those people did. 'cause they did excellent jobs. But you automatically go to, you serve, you, serve you automatically go to the thing. I was in combat every damn day, which was not, not the case. Hm. Dude, you left your home for six months to serve your country. To serve your country with a question mark. Yep. People, I've lost friends in training just as much as I lost friends. Right. In, you know, in, in life situations, in operations overseas. Um, hurt is hurt. Dead is dead. Yeah. Doesn't matter how it happened or like that. And you came back and you served your country proudly like that. You should never, I told 'em, you never, you should never diminish what you did. Whether you earned a medal, whether you earned the CD or a sacrifice medal or the, or the Victoria [01:51:00] Cross or like that. You never should diminish what you did. 'cause service. Your service is your service. Yeah. So just be honest. If, if. If you think you could benefit from one of these programs, it doesn't matter whether you consider yourself a veteran or not, like that, everyone else also side does. Yeah. It doesn't matter whether like, who, like, and, but unfortunately as well there is gonna people within that, in that group that is gonna maybe look down on you because, 'cause it's happened to me where, uh, I, you know, I, my service was Afghanistan and I've had guys who surf in Bosnia that for some reason looked down on my service 'cause I wasn't in Bosnia earth like that. Mm-hmm. We're, again, we're whole, we're horrible to each other as ve as as veterans we're horrible to each other as men. Earth like that. Sorry, I wasn't [01:51:36] Travis Bader: fighting in grade school. [01:51:37] David MacDonald: Yeah. Sorry. I was, yeah, I was eight years old when that, when that war happened. Sorry, I couldn't join you on that one like that. Right. But, uh, but the fact of the matter is, is that, you know, we never should have to de to lower ourselves or diminish our ourselves down thinking that we we're not worthy of. Being happy. Mm-hmm. And being healthy and being, being, being present [01:52:00] and being just as much as present in our lives as we are in others. Something like that. So, um, I, I, I can't think I can say it any better than that. So [01:52:07] Travis Bader: I, I was just gonna say, I really like how you said that. I, [01:52:12] David MacDonald: so, I, I, I like your, I wanna put it out to the community. Firearms community, outdoor community. One, have you had success, you know, within your own, with your own mental struggles, something like that. And finding yourself out of it. 'cause I don't wanna be the only guy who's yelling from the rooftop or like, here about my, you know, like I've been there, I've done that. I've, as you said, it does put a little dent in the thing. I wanna know, have you been able to pull yourself out through positive means, either within the firearms in, uh, committee or with it being outdoors? And for those of them that are running those programs or those that'd be interested in starting a program? I wanna hear from you as well, because as you said, there's some groups out there that do it, but. You know, we need, we need more people willing to participate and more people willing to, to, you know, facilitate as well. The [01:52:58] Travis Bader: question is out there. Yeah. [01:53:00] Challenges out there. Um, let's see what we come back with. Love it. David, thank you so much for coming back much on the podcast.