Silvercore Podcast Ep. 177 - SBS Special Forces Veteran on Violence, Awareness, and Self Protection

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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: If you've been following the show for a while, you'll already know today's guest. If you have even a passing interest in self-defense, self-protection, or situational awareness, his work will likely already be familiar to you. He grew up in a tumultuous environment, went on to serve with the British Royal Marines, and from there, the UK Special Forces. Later he worked in executive protection and corporate surveillance. His new book, man protect polls from all of these to help you better understand danger, read human behavior, and move through the world with more confidence and clarity. Welcome back to the Silver Court Podcast, my friend Sonny Smith. Thanks for having me back. Right on. It's been a few years, hasn't it? It's

[00:00:54] Sonny Smith: been a minute, hasn't it? So much has happened actually in that time, but I'm very

[00:00:58] Travis Bader: happy to be here. Thanks [00:01:00] for having us back. Why don't you catch me up on what's happened between the last podcast and help catch up the audience and now, uh, well, I

[00:01:07] Sonny Smith: started a new career little side hustle, which is professional bare knuckle boxing. Mm-hmm. Had four professional fights in that time. One that you attended. Actually, that was a fun one. Yeah, that was fun. In uh, Edmonton, I was headline that show. Unfortunately I lost, but that is the sport of bare knuckle boxing. It's a savage sport. Some say the most savage sport and everyone I look up to has lost bare knuckle fights. In my younger days I lost bare knuckle fights. Mm. When you are flying these fists at each other. Someone's going down and that's why it's so exciting.

[00:01:43] Travis Bader: Well, that's what surprised me. Like when I first started watching it, I'd never watched bare knuckle boxing before I met you. And there you are, you're out in the stage at the, what is it? The O2 arena? Yeah. In London. And I'm watching you on the, uh, the pay-per-view. And, uh, man, some of these fights, they're one punch and

[00:02:00] they're done and it's over. And it only takes that one punch in the right way to really change the outcome. And like, I'd watch these guys, I'm like, oh, for sure this guy's gonna win over here. And the other guy, Hey, he got in. Maybe he wasn't bigger. Maybe it wasn't tougher, or whatever it might be. So it's, you're going in. It's, it's like court. Maybe they say you have a hundred percent successful case, you go into court and the second you step foot in it's, you know, 70% you're gonna win.

[00:02:26] Sonny Smith: Yeah. Anything can happen. Yeah. You know, and it's real. You know, if you are ever standing in the doorway of your home and you are defending your family, then you are fighting with your bare fists. That's why I like it. And yeah, no matter how good you are, you can always get caught with that wrong shot. The eyes are exposed all the time. A lot of fights are stopped from getting hit in the eye. Mm-hmm. So I actually train with an eye patch sparring sometimes, because you're gonna lose an eye at some point it's gonna either swell up or you're gonna get hit in it and you're gonna have to fight through that. Um. But

 [00:03:00] yeah, just get hit on the wrong place on the chin. Then you get dropped. My last fight I got dropped with a jab. Mm. Which in normal boxing, you get dropped with a jab. People kinda laugh at that. Mm. But yeah, you, you, you can't laugh at bare knuckle boxing.

[00:03:13] Travis Bader: Well, I remember after the fight was over, everyone's kind of clearing out and myself and Jace and Chance, and we went in behind the security back behind everyone else. We just said, oh, no, no. We're here. We're supposed to be good. Right. And everyone just let us walk on through. We go into the back area, we're looking for you. And like, oh man, where's sunny? And we're searching up and down. And finally Jason and Chance are like, well, I guess he's not here. Well let's make plans of what we're gonna do next. Maybe, maybe he took off and I'm like, just, just gimme a moment. I'm gonna just check this one last room. And I go in this back area down, down the stairs. And there you were with some very concerned doctors and nurses and people sitting around. You're like, yeah, I'm fine. And they're like, ah. And they're sitting there stitching you up. And uh, remember Jace who pointed it out? He is like, uh,

[00:04:00] hey mate, is your nose supposed to look like that?

[00:04:03] Sonny Smith: Yeah. It was, uh, at a different angle. It was actually at a right angle. It was, it was been broken many times, but at that, that break was the worst. Mm-hmm. And uh, I had to have that reset. About a week later. And that was one of the most painful experiences of my life actually at that time. The doctor tried to reset it right there, but it didn't do it. I remember

[00:04:26] Travis Bader: I was watching him do it, he's like, here, let's see what we can do.

[00:04:29] Sonny Smith: And you're like, ah. I actually thought, 'cause most, a lot of the time they think that I've broken my nose when I haven't 'cause it was already bent. Mm. So I, I was like, nah, it's fine. It's already bent. Not until I actually looked in the mirror way later and I was like, whoa, actually. So it was like facing that way. It was like, it was horrendous.

[00:04:47] Travis Bader: Well, you just kept saying that. You're like, oh, it's fine, it's normal. My nose is always like this. I'm like, I don't think so. And the doctor's like, can you pull up some pictures of Sonny before the fight and after? And so we're pulling this stuff up. He's like,

 [00:05:00] yeah, no, this is, this is gonna need some attention.

[00:05:03] Sonny Smith: Yeah. Well, they actually said, I'll give it a few days and then go to the a and e. And uh, so I did that. And when I got to a and e, they was like, oh, you've left it too long. We can't reset it. And I was like, wow. Come on, someone's gotta do something. I can't walk around like this for the rest of my life. Mm. So then there was like, oh, there's one doctor down in Richmond that might be able to help you. And then there was like five days gap for that appointment. When I got down there, he was like, no, you've left it way too long. I'm not doing anything. And I was like, come on, please. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna have to have a friend break it for me. Right. And then he was like, oh, there's one other guy that I can uh, give you to Dr. Nick. Yeah. Yeah. Up in West Van. Okay. And, uh, I went into that, it was a full on like a rhinoplasty surgery. Okay. It was like a plastic surgeon basically. And everyone else in this waiting room were like rich Iranian women from Sure. That area. Sure. That were getting full on thousands of dollar nose

[00:06:00] jobs. Mm. But I got it for free 'cause I was, uh, given, passed there through the a and e system. Right. And, uh. He was like, yeah, I can do something for you. Uh, but it won't be very pleasant. And uh, he had me in his chair and he had these two metal rods up my nose. He was, had one foot on the chair and he was just going boom, boom, boom. And I was sitting there like that, like, oh fuck did he freeze it? He gave me the little anesthetic injections, uh, around it to numb it, but it didn't fully numb it. And I could feel inside. It was just fucking, but I'm very thankful that he did that because I had to walk around like that. And it was. It was a joke. It was so sideways. Um, but that was a painful experience. Oh man. I have to admit,

[00:06:44] Travis Bader: you know, in, in my early twenties, I, uh, had a few too many drinks before going out my first time whitewater rafting. And I was, um, running through this field out in the, um, uh, by we rafted down the Thompson River and they had a big cinder block and I, and I broke my little toe and thought

[00:07:00] off nothing of it. Yeah. Let the thing heal up. We'll go to the doctor. Doctor says there's nothing we can do about this. You left it too long. This was a way will ways longer. And, uh, so I know what I'll do. So I just put a wedge in between my toe and I figured I'd give it a whack and break it back. And I did, but I broke it in the wrong place. So now if you look at my little toe, my kids call it my shal,

[00:07:23] Sonny Smith: little zigzag on zigzag there. Geez.

[00:07:25] Travis Bader: Oh. But yeah, I um, I was surprised too 'cause the doctor's like, no self-respecting doctor's gonna fix your nose if you're still fighting. But you're still fighting, aren't you?

[00:07:35] Sonny Smith: Yeah, and he actually put me on the list for actual surgery, uh, for rhinoplasty, but I haven't gone with that 'cause I am still fighting. I plan to fight, um, in probably February, March this year. Mm-hmm. Um. 2026 and uh, I still don't have an opponent. I'm still waiting for the opponent, but I'm got that in my mind now.

[00:07:55] Travis Bader: Well, you were headlining on that one too, and I remember on the headline we're looking at this and [00:08:00] the stats between it, it's like, why, why are they matching The two one's got a much longer reach and he is, you know, look different weight look like. And um,

[00:08:08] Sonny Smith: he is a middleweight actually, usually, and we fought well to weight. He, now he's had two fights in middleweight, so he was cutting, uh, quite a bit to get to that level. And, uh, I have no shame in. Losing to him. Sure. He's a good guy. He is gone on. He's four and oh four knockouts now. Good

[00:08:22] Travis Bader: for

[00:08:22] Sonny Smith: him. And the only person that's knocked him down is me. Excellent. Which I'm pretty happy with that fight. I've watched it back and it's for one round that is back and forth action. It's trademark, bare knuckle. That's why the BKFC is so big

[00:08:36] Travis Bader: now. Well, you know, if anyone ever wants to watch bare knuckle boxing, like for me when I was watching it for the first time, I'm like, what? That's it. The fight's already over and of course the person's bleeding everywhere and they have to pull 'em and the other one wins. It's like, these are so quick. But then you get on and you go the distance. There's one thing that you carry with you and that's massive heart and massive. I am just not going down.

[00:09:02] Sonny Smith: Yeah. That's carried with me for my whole life. Even if I. I'm quite proud of that. Even when I, I got knocked out before that, I'm still trying to get up. It's in my sure consciousness to just get up. Mm. Like there's no, like quitting me. And actually, maybe I shouldn't say this, but there's some bare knuckle fighters out there that you see, they get hit, they haven't like lot got hit in the eye and they go down, they stay down for me. I'm like, what the hell are you even doing in there? Like what, what is this? That's it. It's not bloody chess match.

[00:09:30] Travis Bader: Do you know what I

[00:09:31] Sonny Smith: mean?

[00:09:32] Travis Bader: I think, um, I think for a lot of people, their mental preparation might not. Extend past the, the training, Hey, I'm gonna train. I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna win. And if I don't, well then I, they don't have that mental framework for what happens when everything's going sideways.

[00:09:48] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And also getting hit with a bare knuckle punch is way different than getting hit with a glove on. Mm-hmm. And people don't really experience that until they're in there. Mm-hmm. You get glove boxes that come over to bare knuckle and they're not doing

 [00:10:00] very good, to be honest. Right. They're getting, there's different rule changes. You can clinch and punch, you can grab hold of them and throw shots. And that's how I knocked Drew down. Mm-hmm. I was grabbing him by the head and fucking giving him some, you know, I mean, and in boxes you're not allowed to do that obviously. Right. But it's sort an GRE part of the sport, which changes it in niche fighting quite dramatically to be able to. Grapple a little bit. Standing up clinching, uh, one of the main fighters, Banton weight champion Kai Stewart, he's a wrestler in his background and he's undefeated champion over many like traditional class boxers. He's just demolished them because he's usually wrestling standing up. Mm-hmm. Off balancing them and then hitting them when they're like kind of inboxing if you're shoulder barging, like you're not allowed to do that. Right. It's just a kind of, it's a different element that makes it more exciting. Yeah. Well, it's

[00:10:50] Travis Bader: exciting for sure, and it is, you can't have a weak stomach going into it because it's, uh, it's a, uh, it's a gnarly sport. Yeah, but you're gonna be good back in it,

 [00:11:00] huh? Yeah. Yeah. That's, can't, can't leave it like that.

[00:11:04] Sonny Smith: You know what

[00:11:04] Travis Bader: I mean? Okay, fair enough. Yeah. That, that was one thing that I was concerned about. 'cause I mean, you had win, win, win, you're doing really good. And then you had that fight. Your headlining, you're not on home turf. He was on home turf. We were yelling as loud as we could, you know, go, go up, up Royal Marines. Just, just go sunny. Right? And um, and he said, well, I couldn't hear any of that. I could just hear everyone else going. Right. And there's that psychological side to it. And that was a concern. I was like, like where? Where's your head gonna be at after this fight? And then I'll reach out to everyone was reaching out to you after this fight. Yeah. It's really nice

[00:11:42] Sonny Smith: that people do that, but personally, I used to get beaten up like that when I was younger and I'd wake up in an alleyway or in a hospital bed. Mm-hmm. There's no paycheck, there's no pat on the back. Do you know what I mean? Sure. It's just a. I know a lot of people, if they get punched in the face on the street in an altercation or robbed or something, like

 [00:12:00] the whole world collapses. I should have sympathy for that. Sure. But I kind of, I'm like, well, you get punched in the face, what the fuck? Right. They don't deal with it. Do you know what I mean? That's life. Yeah. But to be honest, yeah. I've, I've had that, you know what I mean? Real pain isn't getting punched. Real pain is when you lose a family member. Sure. Or you go through something deeper inside your own mind. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Real pain isn't that for me, but,

[00:12:23] Travis Bader: well, that's good. And, and I guess a big part of that is just your mental framework ahead of time going into it. Yeah. And I guess that'd be a tough one too, because you have to calculate what losing looks like without setting a pre-ex expectation of losing. You have to calculate what getting hit looks like without the pre-ex expectation that you're just gonna get hit all the time. 'cause that's, you watch people fighting and sparring and it's like, okay, like you threw a punch like this and I'm gonna block like this. Well, that's not real training. Right. You're, you're training for a fake scenario. How much realism can you bring into it? Mm-hmm. Um, and I get the idea

 [00:13:00] behind never inputting any negative info into your brain, but then how do you prepare once that happens? So like there, there's, there's gotta be a delicate balance between how much you actually store inside the hard drive there.

[00:13:13] Sonny Smith: Yeah. I obviously never planned to lose when I first got into bare knuckle in one of my first interviews for the other promotion, the British promotion I was with. The guy was talking to me and I remember saying, oh, just as long as it's like an exciting fight for the fans, I don't really care. He was like, but you're trying to win, right? And I was like, well, yeah, of course. But yeah, I don't know. I see it as entertainment at the end of the day. Obviously I'm trying to win. Um, I had very hard opponents. My first opponent with the BKFC, they changed him two weeks before. Mm. It was supposed to be another guy. And then they changed him to this guy, Jeremiah Riggs, who fought in the UFC. He was at that over 50 professional fights. He's also a middleweight naturally. Mm-hmm. And I obviously just accepted the fight as my big break in the UFC

[00:14:00] and I got stopped in that fight quite early on. Mm-hmm. But that was a step up. A lot of people out there, they wouldn't even take that fight. They, they only wanna fight when they know they can win. Mm. You know what I mean? But you're never gonna get past, you always gotta push yourself. Um, and then my second fight was Drew, who's Golden Gloves champion in Canada. He is a good boxer. Mm-hmm. He's gone on to win four by Knockout, so I don't take that too bad. Obviously it was a hard loss. Mm-hmm. Uh, and also the annoying thing was that I got injured. I la landed a punch with my thumb. They call it skiers thumb. Oh, okay. Um, and it was ligament damage. So usually if you break a bone you can kind of deal with it. Yeah. But ligament stuff is way more complicated. So that took a long time to get the feeling back. But also, I'm not a rich man. I had to go to work at a new job. Yeah. And just hide that. I couldn't fucking use my hand. Do you, do you have use of it back? You do? Yeah, I do, but occasionally I'll

 [00:15:00] catch it a funny angle and then it'll go back quite a few steps. But I, I use like, um. I do a lot of hand strengthening, knuckle strengthening, but I have like a, it's an elastic strands off of this ball that you just stretch out like that, right? And different angles. I had to go and see a specialist eventually to get it, uh, fixed. And she told me it's called skier's thumb, where okay, they usually flying past and they catch it on the pole or a tree

[00:15:25] Travis Bader: or something, interest. So I had that on, on this hand and it was, uh, inner tubing at, uh, Seymour and, uh, years and years ago. And I brought my, I think it was my little brother out with me and he's yelling 'cause his two had fallen off. And he's like, can you grab the two? And it, sleet and snow was coming down. I just opened my eye and I, oh, I can see the tooth. And I ran out as I'm sliding down and I grab it and I, of course jammed the thumb up and, and tore it back. And I didn't see anyone about it. And I just let it kinda heal the way it's supposed to heal. Until finally, you know, I got my grip strength back. But one time a doctor looked at it and said, well,

 [00:16:00] here, put your hands out. And he puts pressure on one thumb. He's like, press up. He's like, now do it on this thumb. And I had like no strength. Yeah. Because I, because I never trained going back out the other way. Mm. But uh, yeah,

[00:16:10] Sonny Smith: that's exactly what they did for me when they did the initial assessment of the specialist. Ah. And then you realize how weak it is and where, where you need to strengthen. Yeah.

[00:16:20] Travis Bader: And it hurt every time I just like tap into something like my old vehicle, you'd have to pull or push the lights on and off and I just kind of tap it in there and it was just painful. Same thing. Yeah.

[00:16:31] Sonny Smith: Exactly the same thing. And I was just starting a job driving boat, so I had to use throttle with that hand. Right. Yeah. So it wasn't too Well you've got a

[00:16:41] Travis Bader: new book out now.

[00:16:43] Sonny Smith: Yep. Man, protect, fulfill your primal duty, man. Protect, how'd you come up with that name? Uh, well, it's kind of, it's, it is our main role as men, isn't it? Sure. And we've kind of gone away from that with society, but it's bringing it

 [00:17:00] back to these primal instincts using modern tools. Mm. And uh, it actually comes from the psychedelic experiences that I had Interesting. And showed me that I am a protector in my back in the old, which our minds haven't changed very much. I would be a tribal protector, I'd be a warrior, you know? Right. And that's why I'm wired the way I am. That's why I've gone into these lines of work. And you don't have to have the background that I've had. Like, everyone is wired that way. Right. And part of the book is that you don't have to be this dagger between your teeth, Harder's nails operate a fighter. It's all about detection. And all the other options. Fighting is the last resort. So that's basically what the book is showing, right? Like giving you all these techniques that real protectors, professional protectors use in their profession. And I. Let people know that engage is right at the end of that. And obviously engage is important and there's a big part of the book about

 [00:18:00] that. Mm-hmm. But we are trying not to get to that point in every situation, really. Especially if we are protecting our family, which is the primary role as a

[00:18:08] Travis Bader: man. I, I really like the book and so I was overly optimistic when I texted you a couple days ago. My wife dropped me off at the hunting shack. I put a fire on, I'm resting up my knee, which I'm not really able to bend still yet. And I thought, sat down and I'm reading through it. I give you a text, I'm like, I'm gonna have the whole book done. I meant, this is such an easy read. It's so fun. I'm so engaging. Like you got all these personal stories in there and how you. How you teach in the book, you start introducing a concept. You start, it's gentle, it's very cool how, uh, the concepts are introduced. They're fleshed out. You call back onto it, then they're reinforced. Uh, I don't know if you just pull in from British military method of instruction, uh, uh, training here, but, uh, it really appealed to me

[00:19:00] the, um, uh, the way that it, you lay out the information. So anyways, I'll give you a text. I'm gonna be done this book in No, Todd, this is such a great read. And then of course life gets in the way and then a few days later here and now and still can't bend the leg. But, um. Sorry, Sonny, I had to speed read a few of those, the sections in here. That's fine. Yeah. But the, the information in here is, um, it's very good. So I, I grew up, uh, in an environment where situational awareness was always drilled into us, and where, from a policing background, my family and, uh, a lot of the things that you're looking at in your book are, have a modern adaptation on some of these older ideas that were put out. And they're, they're really relevant and they're really applicable that anybody can pick up the book, go through it, and apply in their everyday life. Uh, what was it that drove you to want to put this book out?

[00:20:00] Sonny Smith: Uh, it is. It's basically the accumulation of everything I've learned in my life to this point. Mm-hmm. And I've been lucky enough to do many different disciplines. Basically everything that I thought was cool when I grew up, I've tried to pursue at some point. And now I've at the final one, which is professional fighting. That's always a dream of mine. Mhmm. As a kid. So I'm kind of ticking that off right now, which is an element of the book as well. But you got like the corporate espionage, you know, you could grow up watching Jason Bourne and James Bond and all the surveillance world stuff. I was mega keen and interested in all that. Mm-hmm. And then ended up doing it as a job, uh, not for the government in the private sector. Um, and obviously the military stuff, war fighting, it's, and then close protection, bodyguarding, all of these different disciplines have their own skill sets and trade that. You can master. I actually say I'm a jack of all trades, master of none that I've worked with people in the intelligence side

 [00:21:00] in MI five, that all they've done for their whole life is surveillance. Mm. And they are masters of it. Mm. And I've learnt from them and then I've moved onto somewhere else. Sure. You know, and then, yeah, I've picked up this and I've moved somewhere else and I've brought together all of these different elements into the book. So it is basically a guide for men in self-defense in all areas. There's nothing that I left out there actually. The criticism of the book that I had is that I could have written two or three books. Mm. I didn't wanna, I'm not a marketing guy. I'm not a businessman guy. I want this to be my, my legacy. Like, if you wanna learn how to protect your family, then read this book. And it covers all these different subjects. Gives you so many different options other than fighting. And then if it comes to fighting, it tells you what really works.

[00:21:51] Travis Bader: So what is the full saying? Jack of all trades, master of none. But the full saying is, I don't actually know. It's still better off than just

 [00:22:00] a master of one. Oh, it is? Yeah. So it's, uh, you know, everyone says the first part, but they don't, they don't talk with the last part. And it really is a good thing to be a jack of all. Like if you are just a master of just one thing and one thing only, man, you're at a disadvantage to the person who's a jack of All right. Yeah. Um, that's very true. So you talk about the primal role of a protector and you talk about it through history and kinda what it looks like and how modern life's dull the instincts of men, which they've relied on those instincts for thousands of years. What shifted in our culture that made this book necessary? I think it's been

[00:22:36] Sonny Smith: a push in recent years, um, against masculinity is evident. We, we know, we've all seen it, don't we? And that's why we see the rise of Andrew Tate. He has some good messages and some messages I don't really agree with, but the reason people are turning to him is 'cause he is, um, standing up for men. And what is natural to be a man? It's our primal

 [00:23:00] instincts. Jordan Peterson's another advocate. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause we're kind of getting squashed, um, over the years. It's like our instincts that we want to protect, provide, we're kind of getting told that we're not really. Needed to do that, or it's kind of overstepping the boundary in our relationships when, you know, every man knows if someone's coming through your front door at night, you are stepping up. Mm-hmm. And you are expected to step up. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:28] Travis Bader: Do you know what I mean? So how does somebody step back into that role without being paranoid or having all this false bravado, like some of these, uh, DERO Tates of, of the world? Well, there's a lot of different techniques. They're all in the book. By the book.

[00:23:45] Sonny Smith: Yeah. But it's a very vast subject. 'cause there's different character types. I've got into a lot of trouble when I was younger. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of it now that I'm a bit older is because I'm quite softly spoken. I don't have that alpha

 [00:24:00] male presence about me. I don't really speak up, stand at the front, try and lead. Mm-hmm. So kind of people see my kindness and see it as weakness or my calm. I've been stepped over a lot of times and disrespected, and then all of a sudden they realize, oh shit, he isn't a walkover. Do you know what I mean? Mm. But different people are. More accustomed to do different things, different personality types. Like some people have the gift of the gab, they can talk their way out of situations, and you should really lean on your strengths in the book and in life. We have different strengths, but we can learn about the other trades, uh, the other different techniques, but also from like, pick out what you are good at and then master those. And these are your go-to moves. Mm-hmm. Especially when it comes to fighting like. That's something else I talk about. Just having your go-to moves, you don't need 30 different techniques you probably ever maybe get into an altercation once. Hopefully not. But if you do, you just need

 [00:25:00] one thing that works to get yourself outta that situation. Um, a straight jab, straight right hand. Yeah. That was my go-to move. Used it many, many times. It got me out on a lot of shit,

[00:25:11] Travis Bader: you know? Yeah, yeah. Mine, uh, growing up was always just to choke the person unconscious. There you go. I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm a big guy. Yeah. And you know, as long as you can get within my reach and I can use what I have, my reach and my strength to my advantage, I don't wanna be slugging it out back and forth. They always woke up again afterwards. But it allows you the opportunity to, to leave. And if they're lying on the ground, waking up unconscious or sometimes they crap themselves and it's, you know, you held on a little bit too long and, uh, but I, you know, you touch on a few things in there. Uh, in the book that spoke to me because I, I never had the gift of the gab.I've got a podcast now, right? But I still don't feel like I have the gift of the gab, and it's not my first thing that I, I tend to

 [00:26:00] rely on. I will process things really quickly. I tend to be able to see things faster. Maybe it's the A DHD thing, and I can use that to my advantage. But I'm also 6 6 2 40 now. I was two 50, uh, 240 pounds. And uh, growing up I was always a target. Everyone looked at, oh, there's, everyone says, oh, you probably never get in fights. I'm like, I wish. Why is it these like little guys come in and all they wanted, do they get their friends behind 'em? 'cause now they've got some courage, maybe some liquid courage. They look for the one soft spoken person who's not out there trying to antagonize or do anything. Ah, I know, I'll take him down. Right? Yeah. And it's, track it. Yeah. And I, I would be like, you know, it'd be like flies to crap, shit magnet, shit magnet over and over and over again. So I had to learn how to, uh, spot it ahead of time, how to swallow my ego. And maybe it's time to leave 'cause things are gonna get outta hand.

[00:27:00] And if things were gonna get outta hand, how to act very fast and very violently, because I've been in it with multiple people and it doesn't fare so well. But if you can get your hands on one of 'em and you can make a big enough spectacle out of that, the other ones will be. But they tend not to step in.

[00:27:21] Sonny Smith: Yeah,

[00:27:21] Travis Bader: that's

[00:27:22] Sonny Smith: that's very true. I have experience of that in my life as well. Sure. I know you do. I've had to fight multiple people. Uh, at times I had a reputation when I was younger, so people would come to my town and we'd either have arranged fights or you'd be in your normal places on the night out and then a new lads, lad lads would come in and like be barging people and starting things and uh, if I ever want to send a message, I would have a go-to move to do that. And that would be the old Glasgow kiss? Mm, yes. You know that. Yeah. Yeah. Headbutt, which is kind of a real savage and shocking thing to do, but

 [00:28:00] that is the purpose of it. Mm-hmm. If you're going up against a few people, then you need to really shock 'em. You need to. Make them know that you are an absolute lunatic. 'cause not everyone has that fight in mentality. Mm. There'll be people on the sidelines that will be looking in and they will be deterred if you go absolutely animalistic. Yeah. There is a time and a place for that. If you need to fight your way out somewhere, then there is a time and a place for that. Um,

[00:28:29] Travis Bader: yeah, I don't do that anymore, but what I really like about the book is how it helps fill in the blanks for somebody like myself growing up who didn't have the gift or the gab, and you can show people how to rely on other things. Like enhance situational awareness, like maybe a little bit of, uh, establishing a baseline, seeing if you should be there, how, how to swallow your ego. All of these like little things that uh, maybe some people know intuitively. I think a lot of people, especially

[00:29:00] men when they're younger, right, they're young, they're dumb, lots of testosterone going, and, uh, sometimes that, that overrides the gut instinct, which you also talk about, which is a very powerful thing.

[00:29:13] Sonny Smith: Yeah. Intuition and instinct, I think of closely tired. Mm-hmm. And especially for women, actually, they, intuition should really be listened to and men, but women need it more than men because they don't typically have that fighting capability to back it up. And a lot of predators target women. So with intuition, uh, I talk about the science behind it and how I believe it's instinct that are subconscious mind is picking up on. Visual signs, behaviors that are conscious mind is probably not recognizing, but there's something there that's getting triggered. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it could come at you in many different ways and just to listen to it, you know, especially if your wife would say, I don't really have a good feeling about that guy that.

[00:30:00] Business partner maybe that you just met. Mm. Or that guy at the door, you know, just listen to it is something to be thoughtful of. Um, 'cause these are things we kind of neglect these days, but there is actually science behind it, which I go through in the book. Mm-hmm. It's been studied and it's seen to be a real thing.

[00:30:19] Travis Bader: Have you ever read Gavin de Becker's book, the Gift of Fear? Yeah, I have. Yeah. It's a great book. It's a great book. I mean, it's a really good marketing tool for Gavin de Becker too. Like, I had a hard time getting through all of the, and the Gavin De Becker Institute. And the Gavin de Becker. Right. And on and on and on it went. But, uh, the, the fundamental underwriting thing was how you listen to that women's intuition, that gut feeling and helps kind of flash it out. You've taken what his thick book is. You've pulled out all the advertisement, you've put your own experiences behind it, and I think you've pulled really a lot of the core ideas behind there, which is, uh, will save people if they're, if they're interested in this sort of thing from, um,

 [00:31:00] weeding through the muck and, and just pulling out those key insights quickly.

[00:31:04] Sonny Smith: Yeah, that was the point of the book, really. Yeah. Like he's written this whole, I don't know, 200 pages on basically intuition where that is a little part of it, but it's not the whole picture. Mm-hmm. So I'm collating all these different things and actually give a little nod to him in my book because he's, it is good to go and do that research. Um, on the intuition side,

[00:31:25] Travis Bader: well, what do

[00:31:25] Sonny Smith: you think the biggest misunderstanding

[00:31:27] Travis Bader: civilians

[00:31:27] Sonny Smith: have about modern threats? Uh, a lot of people. Just think that it's never gonna happen. That violence has never happened. It's normalcy violence. Oh that's never happened round here. So it is never gonna happen. And we see this with terrorist attacks in particular. Um, which is actually the reason why I started Six Sight and writing this book. It was, I actually look back, it's like seven years ago that I started writing the book. When I first put pen to paper, it was when I was just left live living in

[00:32:00] London. And anyone that know lives in London knows of the terror threat and the different types of attacks and what you should watch out for and stuff to some degree. Obviously I was on the other side of it and defender role in the military and I went to briefings, so I knew a little bit more. So like, but when I recently, I put up a picture on my Instagram about the barriers on Oxford Street, these big yellow metal barriers and these big concrete bollards. I had multiple people messaging me saying, I'm confused. I don't understand that's gonna stop a terrorist 'cause they're thinking of active shooters. Sure. These were Americans mainly. Yeah. Um, 'cause they don't really understand the vehicle ram in threat, which is the biggest threat. It's the most common. We've already had one this year in, in, um, a Christmas market in Paris. I think it was. It was somewhere in France. And the reason it is the biggest threat is 'cause it's so easy, you know, everyone's got a vehicle, anyone could rent a car and right up until the point

 [00:33:00] where you're mounting a curb and then you are a deadly weapon at that point. Mm-hmm. How can you detect that? Well, the only counter as an individual is having good situational awareness and having a plan of what to do and having some knowledge about the environment you're in, which is again, situational awareness. Mm-hmm. So if you are at a Christmas parade or Christmas market, if you are the. Man of the family, then it is your job to protect everyone else. No one else is gonna be thinking about it. It's just this book has given you the tools to like, oh look, there's a concrete bollard over there. If something happens, if I hear the screeching, which I'm listening out for anything above the baseline, if I hear a roaring of an engine, something abnormal in that environment, then I'm gonna grab my kids. I'm go into behind that bollard or into this alleyway. My exit is that way when I walk into the parade ground or the area. Are there concrete barriers that are gonna stop a vehicle ram and attacks, they can't even get down it? Or

 [00:34:00] is it just a, I dunno, some traffic cones, which aren't gonna stop a thing? Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Um, all these concepts are. I explain. 'cause I, I've had to think about, and being from London and living in that environment, it's kind of quite common. Well, we had one here recently in Vancouver, didn't we? Yeah, it was a Filipino street festival. Um, quite a few died, I can't remember. But it was, it was very high number of deaths. And, uh, some children as well. So that's just the reality of the threats today. Indiscriminate, plowing through a family event. It's horrendous.

[00:34:36] Travis Bader: Um, well you, you talk about situational awareness both from, and, and what I really liked was, uh, and leaning on your, uh, executive protection and surveillance side and sharing some of the skills that you would use when following somebody. And not, because everyone's gonna go out and start following people, but if you have an understanding of some of the principles

[00:35:00] and tactics that are used, it gives you a better understanding of, are other people following me? Um. Why do you think predators are so good at spotting who they can attack? They,

[00:35:11] Sonny Smith: uh, yeah, that's predators. In the animal world and the human world, they're exactly the same. They use following what I call the predator attack cycle. So they're even in the recon phase, they're out there on the hunt for victims, maybe that be a pickpocket, maybe that would be a, a mugger or a rapist. So they're looking for a certain victim type. It's all a risk versus reward kind of thing. If you can outweigh them with risks, looking like you can handle yourself, being aware of your surroundings as well as not being in the wrong places at the wrong times and all that. But at a glance, if they look at you and they think, oh, maybe that guy. He's got a bit of muscle on him. Maybe he looks like he's ex-military, which is another thing I talk about. Mm-hmm. Like the gray man tactic. You can try and blend into environments if you're in a foreign country, to not look like an

 [00:36:00] outsider, not look like a tourist, but you can use, flip that over and try and look like a formidable deterrent. You can look like someone that they don't wanna mess with wearing like the black watch the right, yeah. SBS

[00:36:13] Travis Bader: T-shirt. You gotta do it. Hey, sta is on the podcast. I saw that sent some over, and so I figured, well, you know, I gotta represent.

[00:36:21] Sonny Smith: Yeah,

[00:36:22] Travis Bader: no, it's such high quality gear,

[00:36:23] Sonny Smith: isn't it? I just wish I could afford more of it. I know, but that's the thing, it's, it's such high quality. You pay for the quality. That's it, you know? Mm-hmm. But yeah. Um,

[00:36:33] Travis Bader: I lost my trail of thought then, but yeah, how you can not only look out for other people, how you can be the gray man, but how you can also use that information to project an image that you're a hard target.

[00:36:43] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And these are all deterrent techniques that you can use, um, and pass down to your

[00:36:48] Travis Bader: children. The one that I thought was kind of interesting, and so you talked about it, and this is going back a bit. You've got a YouTube channel, anyone who's listed, definitely check out the YouTube channel. There's short

 [00:37:00] snippets and Sonny puts himself into some pretty interesting situations so you can follow along and kind of see what it looks like, you know, going down through the downtown east side or going through crime neighborhoods in California or around the world, and sort of what a, uh, person in his role would be looking out for micd up and hidden camera and all the rest. They're, they're fun to watch, but, um. You know, I remember an older TikTok before TikTok thought that this sort of information was too dangerous for the average viewer to have. And I think your account ended up getting pulled. But, uh, it is, yeah. Um, the, um, uh, carrying yourself in such a way, there's that fine line. So if you're gonna be the gray man and you're kind of blending in, but you don't wanna look like the victim, so you're gonna have, like, you, you can carry yourself, hold yourself, but you also don't want to be the guy who's hardey. Everybody who's coming down the street like, oh, you mess with me. I'm gonna be tough. Because now you flip that script. Now maybe somebody who wasn't

 [00:38:00] necessarily interested in, uh, approaching you, maybe their ego starts kicking in and maybe, oh, who's this person think they are? They're on my turf. They think they're tough. And you're inviting that to you. And, uh, you would talk a little bit about, I remember in the old tiktoks about, uh, how you make eye contact. How much, how long you make eye contact for, how you glance away, not down, look over just little, little tricks that a lot of people don't think about.

[00:38:26] Sonny Smith: Yeah. I There's been studies on it. Mm. Uh, they used, they took a, a videotape of just an intersection in New York of people walking past, and then they took that to convicted. Criminals, predators, muggers, rapists, robbers, violent criminals that would do that stuff with violence. And they showed them the video tape and asked which ones they would wanna target, who would be their victim types. And they studied the ones they picked, and there was patterns. And it weren't always women, it was actually women. Gender wasn't even really considered. It was how that person carried

 [00:39:00] themself. And actually where they were looking was a big thing. Like looking down at the floor, one of the most prolific serial killers, I think it was Ted Bundy, said on an interview that he would choose his victims, by the way that she.

Her head tilted as she walked, like as she was looking at the ground, she wasn't aware. It's kind of a submissive trait as well. Sure. So I do go into the con eye contact thing. It's quite a delicate subject. If someone is targeting you, say you're about, I used to live in Brixton, London. It's quite a rough area. If you're coming up to a group of lads and they're like chatting and then they stop talking and one of them's like looking at you, if you get your head down and you're like, oh fuck, I don't want to go through this situation shit. They can sense that nervousness. They know, right, this, this guy can be prayed on. It's that instinctual thing. If you are calm, you are. Fine in that environment, you are used to it, you're an insider. You just walk relaxed with your shoulders

 [00:40:00] back, head up, you glance eye contact, keep looking ahead. Even in those situations, I would actually say hello in a local greeting. Mm. Because that kind of throw them off. And if you're throwing them off of their thought process, then they're thinking, well, maybe this guy isn't such a victim. And even if they are gonna attack you, if they are gonna hurt you, right, then you're getting that read off 'em earlier. Mm. Because they're further away. If you say hello and a smile something, A smile is very good tactics. We use that in close protection. 'cause people were like, it throws 'em off for a second and then after that second you're gone anyway with your client and they're like, oh, oh. And then you're gone. You're not waiting around. Do you know what I mean? Sure. And in this situation, you're just walking past. So a nice greeting, a friendly greeting can throw them off. But if they are in, they're, they're gonna attack you, then they're not gonna react in a right way. They're gonna not, uh. React to that greeting or they're gonna move forward. And then you've got the read on them before they're within your [00:41:00] personal space. Mm-hmm. And then you can use a different

[00:41:01] Travis Bader: tactic. So you outline the phases that predators use, and in your book you talk about recon targeting stock strike. Can you kind of touch on those, walk the listeners through a little bit about what those stages look like?

[00:41:14] Sonny Smith: Yeah. So the recon phase is when they're out there looking for targets, say like a pickpocket, it's walking around busy areas, markets, and they're like scanning basically. And that could be someone standing up on the side, on the back wall practicing situational awareness themselves. 'cause they are either looking for victims, but they're also looking for the police. They don't wanna be caught. These are the people that are trying to get valuables from you, robbery situations. And then say you're walking past, uh, a group of pickpockets in a market, they'll spot something that they like so they start targeting you. Um, maybe you've got valuables on display, maybe you've got your headphones in or you're distracted looking at paintings in a. Window then they're targeting you. Can they get what they want from you? Do they, do you look like you could be a danger to them? Does the risk outweigh the reward?

[00:42:09] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:10] Sonny Smith: And then they go into the stalk. So they gotta move closer. And they could be gaining information at that time. They will be, or they could be, if it's a violent attack, then the stalk would be very apparent 'cause they'll be moving with the purpose of violence as the intention. And their body language will show that if you are aware enough to see it. Mm-hmm. And then the strike phase is the attack itself. And if you're detecting it at that point, then you've failed. Like this is where close protection we aim not to be. Um, you're on the back foot, you don't really know what's going on. But the point of the predator attack phases is to show that you have. All these options and time to see, uh, to spot a predecessor if you're looking in the right direction. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm aiming to give you the tools to spot them [00:43:00] before they

[00:43:00] Travis Bader: target you. Now, you do something in your YouTube videos, you talk about these things in your book, and you're, you're doing what? So as a kid, my dad would take me downtown, we'd play a game of hawks and pigeons. I think we talked about that one before. But the goal was, as a kid, he had to spot who the hawks were and who the pigeons were, who the targets were, who the victims would most likely be, and who, or the, the, uh, predators. And uh, that's something like going through the book. People can look at this and they can apply this as they're taking the bus. They can apply it as they're going on the sky train, walking downtown, wherever. Who's the other people who are doing the similar thing to me and those other. Hawks who are situationally aware, they tend to be able to spot you pretty quick too. Doing the exact same thing.

[00:43:51] Sonny Smith: Yeah, you do. And you, you'll find yourself spotting criminals. Mm-hmm. Especially pit pockets and dodgy people you wanna stay away from. Mm-hmm. And you'll find yourself

[00:44:00] spotting ex-military blokes, police officers, even undercover police officers. Mm-hmm. 'cause they can't turn it off. Nope. And yeah. Other protectors, you know, uh, yeah. It's easy to spot. And once you start practicing these skills, these daily habits, then yeah, it's good. It's, it's a fun game to play, especially if you're on vacation, you wanna spot the pickpockets, but also a, it's a deterrent that's always a force field around you. Mm. Because, uh, it just shows that you are not. An easy victim, no one

[00:44:34] Travis Bader: can get the drop on you. You put something in the book that I hadn't, uh, I probably should have, but I hadn't seen before. But you write about the rule of stupids. Yeah. How much danger do you think people create in their own lives without actually knowing it? And did you wanna talk about the rule of stupids?

[00:44:51] Sonny Smith: Yeah. It was, don't do stupid things in stupid places with stupid people at stupid times. That's right. And I wouldn't be right in this book if I

 [00:45:00] hadn't have thrown all those rules out Right at the same time. 'cause uh, yeah, you can live, I say that that's right at the beginning because we are not gonna live like that. And I, the purpose is this book is to, so you can reach further than you would before, go traveling and take your family to random places and have a security blanket and a plan. But we, uh, the, the, the bottom line is that this. We have to live our lives, you know? Right. We can't all just stay at home and never be at risk of anything. You know, if you really want to be a hundred percent safe, then that's what you have to do. Yeah. And that's, that's not a

[00:45:43] Travis Bader: life. No, no. You have to accept that there's going to be some risk, but there are a lot of ways we can mitigate that risk. Yeah. And

[00:45:50] Sonny Smith: the biggest stupid there is alcohol, but it's also. The most fun.

[00:45:57] Travis Bader: Well, that goes to my next question. I was gonna say, [00:46:00] what's one stupid mistake people make every day that you think is easy to fix? Uh,

[00:46:07] Sonny Smith: is when you are walking along, don't stare at the front floor. Just clear the route ahead is a tactic that I talk about. Just look up ahead of you. You'll just see things happening and before you are right in front of them and it's right on your doorsteps. This is something I developed when I worked, I lived in Brixton and stuff. 'cause there, there's groups of youths on the street and they are scary. Like they are gang members and they're defending their turf, they're selling drugs and you just have to move around them. Mm-hmm. Um. But you very early on know that you've got a spot 'em, if you spot 'em way ahead of you, then you can evade them easily. You just cross over and walk on the other side of the street. And that is a primary defense tool is prevention and complete avoidance.

[00:46:49] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. So, you know, situational awareness, that's a big part of it, is at the core of your Es a system, your enhanced situational awareness. How did you develop your method and why does it work when most situational training doesn't?

[00:47:04] Sonny Smith: I developed it like, again, from all the different disciplines that I've done. Um, and it is a lot of it comes from close protection because you are, your, your job is to. Look after someone else in their family, you, you are their eyes and ears. Mm. And there's also elements of it that you can't be a hundred percent aware a hundred percent of the time. That's not the job. No one's expected to do that. So it's predicting environments and knowing when you need to turn it up and switch on, switch on times, I call it, where you can use different techniques when you're in a bigger risk area. But then there's also daily habits, which are kind of close protection basics, like sitting tactically in a restaurant, if you have your family, so you can see the entranceway you're facing the door, your back is to the wall. Uh, you've already registered where the exit is and you know how you would get there. Even if

[00:48:00] you're sitting in a booth, make sure you're on the end. So if anything was to kick off, and I'm not talking about like an active shooter every time, it could be two people would. In a disagreement and fighting each other, and they're fucking gonna fall onto where you're baby's sitting. You know? And you have to step, you need to be able to away, be able to step away from that table and just block 'em in that situation. But also, there could be a vehicle running into the front of the shop that happens every day in cities, all around the world. Uh, so you are sitting in a tactical position, standing in tactical positions, so you are getting one step ahead of anything that could happen. And it's, it's good even if you're not a family man, you're just working in a cafe if you're on your laptop. The tactical position thing's so important because you can be doing other things. You can live your life, but if you're in that position, then you're automatically got a headstart on everyone else in that environment. Mm. If something kicks off, then you're just gonna. See it in your peripheral vision immediately.

[00:49:00] Whereas a lot of people sit with their back to the action all the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, it's a simple thing, really, but a lot of people

[00:49:07] Travis Bader: may not think of it. It, it's funny 'cause I, I know a lot of it's the old gunfighter thing, right? The old gunfighter tactic. You always know where the exit is. Sit at your back, watch where you can see, uh, people coming and going. And I was always raised that way as well. We were out having Greek food the other day. You arrived early. I'm like, of course. He's sitting there with his back. So, so he, I spent the entire time looking in the reflection of the, uh, the window. Oh. Back to see what's happening behind me. Of course. Like I had your back, babe. Oh, I, I know you did. Of course. I see the owner Franco coming up behind me. Here comes.

[00:49:41] Sonny Smith: But, um, there was a thin line between paranoia and being that switched on. Protector. I, yeah. And that's where these daily habits are good. 'cause you don't have to be like on high alert looking around all the time. Mm-hmm. But you're already set up for success

 [00:50:00] and visualization comes into it as well. Like if one time you visualize at a parade, how am I gonna move my two children out of the danger zone, offer the X. Mm-hmm. Just think about it. Mm-hmm. Play with them on the bed in your front room, pick 'em up, throw 'em around a bit. Just think, uh, I can carry 'em one underarm like this. That's how I'll move them. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:50:23] Travis Bader: Yeah. So mental role, role playing ahead of time, what if, and then you don't have to worry about thinking about that if it does happen. Yeah, exactly. Got that one downloaded. It's an actions on, as I say, how does someone know when the environment just doesn't feel right? And they should trust their instinct.

[00:50:42] Sonny Smith: Absence of the normal presence of the abnormal it's region environment. It's the chapter in the book, but it's. Knowing what's going on in, well, it doesn't fit in, in the environment, and that, that encompasses a very big subject. Mm-hmm. Um, in the surveillance world, when we'd go and do an operation in a foreign land or anywhere, it's

 [00:51:00] really a foreign land. You're never doing it on your hometown, in your doorstep. So you'd go and you'd absorb the environment, you'd establish the baseline, you'd sit outside in a cafe or, or in a park, and you just watch people watch what are they wearing, what behaviors do they have? That's normal to the native people there. Um. What types of vehicles, you can read all these things and get a, a feel for what is the norm in the environment, and then you adapt yourself to conform to that. If things do stand out as abnormal, the norm is actually unaware, so mm-hmm. The first indicator is someone that's aware of their surroundings, check them out because they're either a good guy or a bad guy. Mm-hmm. You know, um, but then there's different behavioral traits as well that are clear indicators of someone, especially for violent acts, but also pickpockets and things.

[00:52:00] Um, a lot of places in the world, like I talk about a story when I was in Italy, um, I had done my research before I went there and I found that it's Roman and gypsies were a. Large ethnicity of street robbers and pickpockets. Yep. And they actually set up on me. And the first read I got on him, there was a guy standing up against the shopping center and he was like looking around. Mm-hmm. And he was of that ethnicity. So that, that was the first indicators. And then watching his behavior more, then I, I, I learned that he was. Signaling for someone else to come up behind me. And then I ended up turning around and making him jump.

[00:52:38] Travis Bader: Yeah,

[00:52:38] Sonny Smith: I was quite proud of that.

[00:52:41] Travis Bader: It's funny, a uh, another past podcast guest and he does, uh, security work, uh, ex British Army. And, uh, he, uh, I was like, oh, what kind of security work you doing? Right? And he is working at the airports. He says, well, the racist kind, but it's, but it's, it's not

 [00:53:00] racism. People talk about profiling. There's a difference between profiling and racism. And I think people have got it in their heads lately, in past years that, well, we can't profile that's racist. And he said it tongue in cheek because what they do is profile, right? Mm-hmm. People from certain, certain genders at certain age groups and certain ethnicities from certain areas. I have shown that there's gonna be a higher likelihood of trouble than others. Why wouldn't you use that information when you're downloading your, your baseline and where you're taking a look at your, uh, uh, your, your profiling of where, where a threat could come from? Well, there's a, um, 80-year-old woman from Italy and she's, are we gonna treat her the same as we would from somebody who comes from the profile background? Exactly.

[00:53:47] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And that's just another small element of the whole big picture, but it's how you get a quick read on someone. Mm-hmm. You know, we're not so for violence. We're not gonna be as concerned with women as we are men, because statistically they're not gonna

 [00:54:00] be as violent. Yeah. There's anomalies out there, but when we are looking for threats, especially in the close protection world, we're not gonna be giving them as much attention. Especially when you're moving through a dynamic environment where there's lots of people moving around. Mm-hmm. The first things you're looking for is someone who's aware, and if they're of that gender, male age, fighting age, male is a term that's coined for a reason. Mm-hmm. You know, um. And the behavioral traits and also the dress. You can go into subcultures that criminals use in certain areas. Obviously we have famous ones, like we know what, how's angels wear? Sure. The biker jackets and that, uh, we know what the bloods and cribs wear, the color schemes. Sure. Um, we can all have a idea of like a Latino gangster as well. So in the UK there is very niche subcultures between the gangs that you can pick out. And yeah, there is some overlap with general other young people who live in the area who aren't gangsters. But when we're

[00:55:00] considering the safety of our family and whether we should continue down the street towards a group of men. Look dodgy. Like it doesn't matter what you think in your own head, you make your own decisions. You're not a police officer, most probably. Um, so you, you decide this is a, just a part of the decision making process.

[00:55:19] Travis Bader: It seems to me when you wrote this book, you had a very conscious mind towards, uh, giving the information without sugarcoating it. I mean, you'll, there's lots of humor inside the book. There's lots of little things that you can pick out. I'm make peacock, you gotta let me fly. Like little things you can. But, um, and, and all of the stories, but, um, that you made a conscious effort just to give the information without it being varnished under a layer of, uh, political correctness. Um. Am I correct in, uh, in that? Yeah.

[00:55:54] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And I actually went back and forth with that. I started the book with a, a general audience in

[00:56:00] mind. I wasn't gonna go down this male protector route. Mm. This tactics were still the same, but it was kind of different. And then I changed it. It's like, I don't want to do that. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna just do what I think, like this crowd that might get angry is gonna be angry about, I don't actually care what they think. Do you know what I mean? True. And they're not my audience. I'm not talking to them. Right. If they wanna get angry about it, then go read another book. Do you know what I mean? You, I, I've, yeah. I've stayed true to what I believe and my own experience.

[00:56:32] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well, I also think despite it being called Man Protect and you give the reasons why and how you name it, uh, there's a lot of information here that would be very, very useful to women as well. Uh, men are typically looked at as the projector when push comes to shove. We revert to our animalistic very, very human instincts. But I think there's a lot of information in here that, uh, that women can

 [00:57:00] look at this and say, well, okay, I've seen this and this is what a predator's looking like, and here's actually what a, someone who's gonna be acting in a protector role might be looking at things. And I, uh, despite its name, I think it's a valuable resource for men and women. Yeah,

[00:57:17] Sonny Smith: definitely. Uh, a lot of the tactics are the same, and I do look at it as a, the marketing is from man. Sure. Uh, obviously for a man's lens and to teach those skills onto the women in their life, their daughters mainly. Do you know what I mean? Right. Um, because they're not my experience. Why I didn't keep it a broad book marketing, you need to find your audience and sell it to that audience. But I don't think like many women are gonna read my content anyway. It's mainly a male audience. You can see that in all your Instagram stuff anyway. Yeah. But, um, there is something in the pipeline way down the line that after this one, that I'd like to do a CoLab with a female, which I have some people in

[00:58:00] mind to do. A woman protect. Yeah. Nice. And yeah. Take from, I think I know what you're talking about too. Yeah. Yeah. I've re reached out to her. Yeah. Yeah. But I will in the future. Yeah. Um, because I think it's like the way men speak to each other is different, you know? Sure. And I didn't want to. Put it for everyone. Oh. Be friendly for everyone. 'cause I wanna speak to geezers like me. Sure. And you, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and when I write to women, I'll have like female voice as like a main author as well. Mm-hmm. Like the tactic tactics. And also I'll, they have a different experience when they walk down the street. Like, have you ever worried about being raped walking down the street? Thankfully, no. No. Nor have I, it's never even considered in my realm of possibility. Right. You know what I mean? But for women, that is a daily worry. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And there's different types of predators that predate on them. Mm-hmm. Um, so they have a different experience. Um, and there's been this whole big political thing recently about complete equality, which

 [00:59:00] look we are different. Mm-hmm. You know, there's differences. Um, so yeah, this is for the male organ audience, and I'd like to do the, the female, but I'd like also not to be the man in that role saying, you need to do this. Mm-hmm. It's a, I don't walk that. Life. Do you know what I mean? I'm not that person, so I'll co-author with someone else to get that perspective. Smart.

[00:59:22] Travis Bader: I think that's smart. Now, you don't glorify violence, obviously. You, you, violence is a part of your life. You do that professionally as a bare knuckle boxer, and there's certain reasons why you do it and what you get out of it. But you make it very, very clear in the book that, uh, avoiding, uh, not even being in the situation to begin with, all the different ways that you can. Get out of it are far better than just looking at, oh, here's, here's your special move you can do, or here's, here's your special tactic. But when fighting is unavoidable, when fighting is unavoidable, what do people need to understand about

 [01:00:00] the reality of it?

[01:00:01] Sonny Smith: Hard, fast, aggressive. That is the mantra that a raw commando corporal used to drill into us. If it's already on, then it's already on. I learned that very early on in my life. If someone's telling you that they are gonna hurt you and they are coming towards you, there's no more talking there. And yeah, you could turn and run. There's a lot of situations where you can't turn and run. They, there's a switch that needs to be flipped and that is the animalistic side that needs to come out. Um, and to get those skills. You can't read a book. And I say this at the first paragraph, basically of the fight and bat section, but I do outline what you can go and learn and the most effective fight in arts to learn to get to a capable 'cause like I said earlier, you only need your go-to moves. Mm-hmm. You only need to learn something that works for you to get you out of a situation and then pull up your socks and get moving. 'cause that's also something about

[01:01:00] violence that I talk about. Mm-hmm. Which most other people won't talk about. This is real from, from my experience. There's nothing good that happens from if you have to defend yourself from sticking around in that environment. No. You need to get out of there and you need to go home. 'cause I've had times when I've had a scrap with people and I've gone to the next bar and they've come into the bar and no, I'm on my own at that point. Yeah. So, yeah, that's not a good situation. Um. That's when you gotta use the crazy headbutts

[01:01:29] Travis Bader: technique and then reassess What, what did I do wrong? Okay, now I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna get out. What do you think the biggest misconception people have about knives and guns in real violence? Uh,

[01:01:45] Sonny Smith: this is another thing of why I've gone down this road of teaching because of the YouTube videos you see of knife attacks online. It just, it's ridiculous. Like the knife is coming at you at a certain angle and you're like using

[01:02:00] a Yeah, yeah. Karate chop shit. Like Stevens Toal. Like come on. You can't tell me. You didn't watch Steven Al when you were younger. I did, and I believed it for a while. Oh yeah. Till I was stabbed up in London.

[01:02:12] Travis Bader: This didn't work.

[01:02:13] Sonny Smith: Yeah. Uh, yeah, there's a lot of misconceptions and it comes back to the detection and situation awareness. Like when I was in that knife. Fight. It wasn't really a knife fight 'cause I didn't have a knife. It was just one person getting stabbed. Yeah. What would you call that then? Just a stabbing? Yeah. Basically. I didn't know that the blade was being used until someone in the queue next to me screamed that he had a knife and I was underneath him and he was like coming down to me and luckily the doorman grabbed him and pulled him off. Otherwise, I didn't know how to fight jujitsu at that time. I was just literally holding on for dear life, basically. Um, most people don't know that they're carrying a knife, so it's monitoring the hands in the, in the lead up and all these behavioral traits that could save

[01:03:00] your life in those times. Um, and with the firearms as well. I do talk about active shooters and terrorism because this is something that most people probably haven't thought about, what they're gonna do, so. If there's an active shooter in a shopping mall and you are like the run hide fight model, I like that. Mm-hmm. Say run and hide are exhausted and you, you know, they're on the other side of that door and they're coming, then if you don't have any fighting experience, what are you gonna do? But this is, I'm, I'm teaching what to do and it's all about getting hands on the weapon as early as possible. Mm-hmm. I've watched many, many videos where people try to tackle, they run mm-hmm. They've got full aggression, but then they're thrown off and then that little bit of distance is all the shooter need needs to get rounds on target. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's kind of controlling the weapon arm. I don't go into jujitsu moves. Mm-hmm. I guide you to where you can learn those

[01:04:00] moves, which is Brazilian jujitsu's a great one. Mm-hmm. Uh, for controlling one person's arm with your two arms, which in a real situation, you have to control their body as well. Mm-hmm. So you have to be in mount most likely is preferably. So it's, it's a very. Intricate thing. I give like the basic rules. And when it comes to, like if you are walking through Borough Market in London or downtown Vancouver in a Christmas market, you turn around a corner and there's a guy with a knife coming towards you, slashing people. Mm-hmm. What are you gonna do? Well get behind a barrier. First of all, use a chair as a barrier and as a weapon in between you. You know, these sorts of things that could save your life. Even a parked car can save your life. Like that old sketch where you as a clown is chased around it. Yes. Yeah. That's worked for many people and they've survived knife attacks because of that, you know?

[01:04:56] Travis Bader: Um. People get tired and they're like, oh. Then [01:05:00] the consequences are, they have enough time to think about, are there police coming? Are there others coming? Maybe I should skip battle.

[01:05:05] Sonny Smith: Yeah,

[01:05:06] Travis Bader: buy yourself time. Put some distance. Exactly.

[01:05:09] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And these go-to things are, a lot of people would think of them, but a lot of people are, oh, I haven't thought of that. There's loads of little ni tidbits in that book that gives you these little options. Like, oh, I didn't think of that thing. Mm, I didn't think of that. But a hard lock-in location is a close protection tactic that we use if we can't make it out of an exit. So you would barricade yourself in a room, a disabled washroom, for instance, with your family if there's an active situation going on. Mm. And you just wait out in there. Or if you've used a barricade, a room, you would put the table there and then the other table there, and you'd build a barricade from the wall on the other side all the way to the door. Mm. So it cannot be opened. So it's pushed. Actually against the opposing wall, if you can. Mm-hmm. Other than just putting a table at the desk, the desk up against the door, which could be kicked and pushed

[01:06:00] out the way. Could be. Yeah.

[01:06:01] Travis Bader: Yeah. Little things like that clown thing running around the car. I remember one, um, it was, uh, in, I think it was Smith and Western Academy. I was in, uh, Massachusetts doing some training there, and they're telling a story of a guy and, uh, he was shot a couple times, police officer and he's down on the ground, bad guy comes up with a gun and he's gonna shoot him in the head and police officer puts his hand up in front of the muzzle. So bad guy turns around to get a better shot and he puts his hand over here and he keeps, like the bullet will go right through the hand. But the thought process like that was what he had in the moment. To be able to try and put something between him and maybe the person you're dealing with isn't, uh, it saved his life. The, um, uh, enough time had passed, um, blocking it with his Superman hand here. Yeah. And, um, but. Having, um,

[01:06:48] Sonny Smith: that's also not giving up as well, which is I talk about flight. You're in the flight to the end. What a great tactic that guy used. If all you can do is that and you do it and it's you survive, then that's real

[01:07:00] survival.

[01:07:00] Travis Bader: Well, you know, a thing or two about not giving up too, don't you? Yeah. Um, and then the knife thing. So I've carried a knife since I think kindergarten, maybe grade one. Uh, I remember when I lost my knife in grade one and I go to the office and look for my knife and they go to the loss and found, they come back with this big blue plastic thing and no, no, no. Mine's, mine's a folding knife. It's black and it looks like this. I carry it in my pocket. Like, okay, that's kinda weird. What are you carrying a knife for? Over the years, the, uh, idea of carrying a knife in a public place is, um, has a different, uh, connotation behind it and stigma. Mind you, here in British Columbia, you can carry a knife. You, you see the telltale clip on people's pockets or their waistband, but, uh, I think some people will carry it. I, I carry it 'cause it's a tool. I use it all the time. Yeah. People don't realize how devastating a knife can be. You're at close range. At far range. I'd rather that they have an a knife

[01:08:00] on them at close range. I think I'd rather they have a gun, honestly. Because Yeah, the knife is so damn versatile and it's so devastating. And if people are carrying these things for self-protection. They gotta be prepared for the aftermath, which is you're probably gonna kill a person if you have to use a knife on somebody.

[01:08:17] Sonny Smith: Yeah. This is a big thing. Risk request rewards that I've flipped Flacked on since coming over to Canada. Mm. I grew up in the UK, obviously, and the knife culture is like, you can't carry a knife, you go to prison. There was a Manisty prison sentence for a time. Mm-hmm. I actually, when I was 15 years old, I got stop and searched by the police. I had a knife on me and I had an knuckle duster that my friend sold me from when he went to Spain. Like when I was that age, like enough duster was cool when I was like, yeah, I'll buy it off you. Yeah. I would've never used it. I just carried it. 'cause I thought it was cool. Sure. Anyway, I spent the night in. Jail self 'cause of that. And luckily because I was only one year away from being 16, it

[01:09:00] wasn't on my record forever. Mm. So I've just got a reprimand and from then on I didn't carry a knife until after when I was in the military. And it's kind of drilled into you. But when I came and did close protection over here, the operators were all carrying a knife. And for good reason, like if, if you are in your last stand, then a knife is a good tool to have. Especially if they're carrying a knife as well. Then having a knife of your own will give you that distance and hold them off. 'cause it's no longer, like we said before, one man getting stabbed. Now it's a knife fight. Right. And I've got, it's the history of knife fighting and like a great example is fencing. I know it's an Olympic sport, but any sort of sword fight in a knife fighting, it's all about. Distance and actual footwork. Mm. Keeping them away. And if you have your own knife, then they can no longer just come full steam ahead. Now you can hold them at bay. And, uh, I do talk about that as a man and it's, it goes against the grain of British culture. Um,

[01:10:00] but also I'm talking about family men, middle-aged men. Like I'm not gonna get stopped and searched these days anyway, like back home. I will break the law and walk around London with a knife if I'm with my family. Sure. Like the risk is way too high and like, I'm not a terrorist. Do you know what I mean? I'm with you on that one. I, I bought a

[01:10:22] Travis Bader: knife specifically 'cause I did my research when last time I was in the uk. Okay. This one can open up but it doesn't lock. Spider Coat makes one that's UK compliant and, and all these other countries. And I don't know what the ins and outs, I just. I got onto Google and researched my, my knife laws, but I'm sure there'd probably be some, some areas of grayness in there as well too. Yeah. But, uh, what can I have when I was in Greece, what can I have in these different places? But, um, I had to switch up what it was I was carrying. But one of the things that I think that, uh, is highly effective would just be oc sm capsicum pepper

 [01:11:00] spray. It's, uh, um, you're not gonna kill the person with it, and it's pretty easy to deploy if your, your children, your significant other, and you can buy the stuff on Amazon and have a delivered to your house. You just can't use it on people. If you carry it for people, that's illegal. If you carry it for dogs. Perfectly legal.

[01:11:21] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And I, I do carry it around where I am. Sure. I actually was nearly attacked by a dog when I was with my daughter. Um, a camp ground off the. Man, Quam Forest Road there. And we were walking on a trail just a little away from our tent and someone else had a tent, but they had a dog and it wasn't on a leash. And this is like, no one comes to this campground, it's just a site where you just go, there's no like Ranger or whatever, park officer. And the dog came at us and it was like growling, barking, rah. And I like picked her up, my daughter and had it ready. And then the guy come out, some Mexican guy, he was like, oh no, it's fine. I was like, no, it's not fucking fine. Get hold of your

[01:12:00] dog. Yeah. You know what I mean? I've got a dog and it's on a lead over there. Right? Like my daughter was scared. She was crying. That's a good application of it. But also if you are followed at night, I, yeah, I highly recommend it. I actually have the bear spray at my front door. Mm-hmm. Like when I'm not there. Then spray that through the side of the door. Close the door again. Or if someone's breaching the door, then spraying it, covering that whole room, and then going in the back room. Barricading yourself. That's a good deterrent. Mm-hmm. I think it's a great one. Uh, the thing for the UK is it's like classed as a firearm, though we don't have fear. Yeah. It's pretty fucking,

[01:12:36] Travis Bader: yeah. And of course, like none of this is legal advice. I've, I have talked to lawyers and I have gotten opinions and everything's gonna be situationally dependent and what the intent was and why you had it and whatever it is. But, uh, carrying OC for people, illegal carrying OC for dogs, legal, using OC on dogs, you know, I've talked to, um. Uh,

[01:13:00] SBCA and dog handlers, and they say, you know, if you got a really aggressive dog, the, the spray doesn't work that great. Oh, what does the, uh, a SP baton, the asp, the um, uh, expandable baton when dog dock or whatever you're gonna go with says that, that tends to work pretty good. Oh, okay. Um, but on people, oc bear spray tends to help take some of the fight out of them.

[01:13:26] Sonny Smith: Definitely. And especially for, for women, you know, if you're getting followed someone's approach, you know, even producing and saying, go back, they're gonna, oh, fuck, then. Right? They're gone. You know what I mean? How, who's gonna run through bear spray unless they really, really want what they want?

[01:13:42] Travis Bader: Well, I think, uh, the book, and I'm like I say I got a little ambitious when I said that I've already, I'm gonna have it done by the. Today I did a speed read through a number of the chapters. I'm gonna go back and read through 'em 'cause I'm finding I'm getting a lot of value out of it. Um, it helps, uh, look at things from a little bit different

 [01:14:00] perspective and some of the experiences that you bring in. Um, is there anything else on the book that we should be talking about or should we move on to something else? Uh, yeah. No, that's, that's about

[01:14:09] Sonny Smith: it really. Yeah. That's good. It, um, it's just a good guide for any man in the future. And there'll be times in your life when you might go on vacation or traveling. You might move to a new town, you might get a new job where you are in charge of sensitive information or equipment, and then there's parts that you can just revisit, you know, and look at it through that lens. Oh, this is the new threat that I'm encountering. The danger is that I'm holding large amounts of cash or in the corporate world, sensitive information now that I might be a target for. Armed robbery or espionage, which is one lot people don't think about. Sure. Or if you have children later down the line, then yeah, it's a good guide to revisit.

[01:14:55] Travis Bader: And how can people get this book?

[01:14:57] Sonny Smith: Uh, Amazon. Okay. Yeah. [01:15:00] When's it available? Is it already available now? Yeah. Well, when this is dropped, it'll be available. Awesome. Excellent.

[01:15:05] Travis Bader: Okay. Um, so Amazon Man Protect. Now your YouTube channel has got some pretty diverse information on there. There's a lot of it that's gonna apply to Man Protect, but you also talked about a, um, uh, a trip down on a Ayahuasca retreat. That was earlier this year. Yeah. As a life changing experience, I'd say. I think that's interesting as hell are, are you still involved with Hero Heroic Arts?

[01:15:33] Sonny Smith: Yep. I'm still an ambassador for them. Okay. And, uh, they're doing a lot of different projects. They have a Canadian branch now. Um, and so they have the, the American started first and the British, and then the Canadian, and now there's an Australian branch. Hmm. Um, so veterans from all these different countries are going to retreats in Peru, Costa Rica doing ayahuasca. They also do psilocybin, um, sessions in places as

 [01:16:00] well. Holland is one of the locations. Um. So they're, they're active, very active. I like to promote them when I do my fight and always wear 'em on my shorts. And any media that I do, I promote them. I'm also gonna be doing guiding myself like, 'cause I went to a retreat in deep in the Amazon jungle of Peru and I really researched where I was going. There's a book, um, fellowship of the River that I read. And this shaman is, I've gone to the same guy. They're the Shabo tribe. So they've been in this region healing warriors and different types of people for hundreds and hundreds, some say thousands of years. Uh, they used to heal the Inca Warriors 500 years ago, and it's a real kind of. Raw bones experience. You can go to Costa Rica and stay in a five star hotel and have this experience and that suits some people. But I wanted to go to the heart of it where it's been a

[01:17:00] tradition that's carried on in a tribe setting. So this is their tribal grounds. So you go and stay in like a wooden hut on stilts in the middle of the Amazon jungle. Mm. Um, and part of it was the experience of doing that and venturing down there on the Amazon River. It was awesome to go down there. Even if I didn't do the ayahuasca, I would've had a great time just unplugging from reality technology and all that just for a week. I was there for just over a week.

[01:17:28] Travis Bader: So you gave me a book a while back and I think it was called How to Change Your Mind. Is that what it's called? Yeah. Yeah. And then he, he's like, did you read the book? I'm like, I gotta be honest. I just haven't got around to reading this book. He's like, don't worry about it. There's a Netflix show you can watch. It has all the information on it. Just watch a Netflix show. Right. Yeah.

[01:17:45] Sonny Smith: That's much easier. Yeah.

[01:17:47] Travis Bader: So I watched that one and, uh, I gotta tell you, it's, it's, uh, it's interesting, like I sat down on the podcast with a, uh. Uh, JTF two fellow, and, uh, he's like, you know,

 [01:18:00] I don't like drugs. I don't do drugs, but you know, there's this time we did ayahuasca. And then I, and he goes through all these different things. I'm like, hold on a second. What are you calling drugs? Right. There's, yeah, and there's this stigma around psychedelics and drugs that I was always raised with. Talking to yourself, talking with, uh, other people who've gone this route or watching the Netflix show. I don't, maybe it was cold. How to change your mindset. It was,

[01:18:24] Sonny Smith: yeah.

[01:18:25] Travis Bader: Okay. Who was the author? Michael Poland. Michael Poland, that's right. Yeah. And, um, it, it's shines a very, very different light on what I think most people were raised to look at these things as.

[01:18:40] Sonny Smith: Yeah. And I actually call them medicines. Um, plant medicines. There's a. There's two kind of fields of thought here. There's obviously the medical side, psychologists, psychiatrists there. They use MDMA, they use ketamine therapy, they use psilocybin. Mm-hmm. Uh,

[01:19:00] they're using ibogaine, which is the big one in America. Um, so Ketamine, MDMA, these are kind of chemicals that are made by man. Sure. You know, and then I'm in the other kind of branch, although there's benefits of these, they're not really in my interest. I think there's a, there's a deeper thing going on with these medicines that are grown from the earth. Um, for the mushrooms, for instance, ayahuasca, ibogaine, which is from the iboga plant in Africa. Mm-hmm. It's used in a tribal setting for many years. Um, I think there's a, there's a deeper thing going on there that I'm, is ingrained in, like consciousness and how the universe works. Okay. Uh. Which has a lot of healing benefit. Um, I think it's the missing link of humanity to be honest. There's a lot of recurring messages when you go and do these psychedelic journeys and they are good messages for

[01:20:00] humanity. Like being at one with nature, taking from only what you need, not being greedy, um, is forgiveness is a message that is recurring that I've had. And also other friends have rekindled friendships where after their psychedelic experiences, like I had a falling out with a good friend of mine. I was best man at his wedding. It was over a business thing. Uh, and we didn't talk for four years. And then I had an experience in one of my psilocybin journeys where I thought about him and the whole relationship and how he's like a brother to me. Mm. And then I made contact again and they were good friends again. You know that that breaking down of my kind of. My mindset of, oh fuck that, da da dah.

[01:20:46] Travis Bader: Right? It

[01:20:47] Sonny Smith: was

[01:20:48] Travis Bader: because of the psychedelic experience I had. Forgiveness is an interesting one. You know, the Bible preaches that forgiveness is, forgiveness is divine. Um, I, I don't know if I found a

 [01:21:00] workaround for forgiveness. Uh, I've always had a very difficult time when someone's done something to forgive them for what they did. And like some people, I don't think deserve forgiveness, but maybe, and I was told by some I agree with

[01:21:15] Sonny Smith: that. Yeah.

[01:21:16] Travis Bader: Yeah. It depends what they've done. You know, I was told by one person that, um, I said. Here's my theory, may maybe forgiveness doesn't mean you have to forgive the other person, but it means you forgive yourself for trusting that person or being put in a situation and so then you can move on. And they said, no, that's just a workaround. But I'm not, I'm not entirely sure. I'm not entirely sure. That's correct. I, uh, the forgiveness thing I think is a very interesting one. Clearly it's been preached about over the ages. How did, uh, I guess two part question so I don't forget it all. Uh, what would the difference between calling these a drug or a medicine? Would it just be intent and how it's used and how does the

 [01:22:00] using of that help with forgiveness? Uh, I would

[01:22:03] Sonny Smith: say it would be the intent. Yeah. Um, as a medicine. People take psychedelics, like for partying and stuff. I'm actually not massively against that because taking mushrooms at a music festival is way safer than taking MGMA or ecstasy or these other chemicals 'cause there's no real recorded, um, negative effects of it on your body. Mm. Or your mind. It's actually good for your body and mind in lots of studies to show this. Um, although using it recreationally isn't like really, but when you're putting it up against, like a lot of my friends back home, they go to I BFA and they smash cocaine and ecstasy for a binge for a week. Um, and that's just the culture of when you go to IB for and dance and party, it's not good for your body.No, it's not good for your health. Um, but if you were

[01:23:00] to go to a music festival and do mushrooms as opposed to alcohol or these other hard drugs, uh, I don't see a problem with that. Hmm. That, that would be a problem in terms of the law and sure things, but I see it as a, a mental health tool that can, as a medicine that can help, um, heal the root of the pain, to be honest, other than what the other mental health tools we have today are kind of masking the symptoms.

[01:23:31] Travis Bader: Yeah. So I mean, I, I guess the idea behind it is that you use it and in the future you don't have to, you work through something and then you're, you get better. Or is it something that people have to do over and over and over again or, like, I, I know the idea of, let's say SSRIs antidepressants. It's, it's a weird cocktail. Everyone's brain's a little different. And doctors are, a lot of times just throwing darts at a

[01:24:00] dart board and seeing, oh, did I get close? Did that get it? Yeah. And I, and I know people who are on antidepressants and how they say it's fantastic, and then a little while later, it's a worst thing ever. And then they have to change it, but they're always on it. It doesn't

[01:24:15] Sonny Smith: seem to be a plan. Like the doctor, oh, things are getting worse and they just up your dose and like. Where's the end goal here? We just live the rest of our lives on this drug. Mm. What we see with Ayahuasca, ibogaine, psilocybin is that people are getting, they're facing the root of the problem, particularly with PTSD and to go on like an ayahuasca journey. Some people may have a negative kind of perception of it, but it's not an easy thing to do. Like I went there for a week. I did four ceremonies in that week. Two ceremonies were enlightening. I got a lot from it. I asked a lot of questions and I got the answers that I really wanted to hear and healing I, but then I got one ceremony where it was

[01:25:00] really kind of a dark ceremony. I was facing some things that happened to me when I was a young. Younger person and that that is really healing. You have to go into that. And this, that's the scary part and that's why a lot of people won't really do it. The first thing is they say they have to be in control all the time. That's, that's the one thing you have to let go. You have to like, kind of let it happen. You can't be fighting it. If there's a vision or something coming to you, you have to go with it. Mm. And I'm the kind of person that I'm interested. I wanna investigate if this, if there, if I do see a dark thing coming, mm, I'm like, okay, what are you, what is this? And then usually you'll be shown through a process. Um, so after that one ceremony, that was kind of a dark one where I, it was kind of not say traumatic, but afterwards I felt in a down state, I was, I wouldn't say depressed, but I was not happy for a day. I had a day off the next day and I, if I'd left it at that, I would've been like, maybe this isn't for me. I dunno what I'm

[01:26:00] doing here. It kind of showed me my. The worst parts of my life that I've decisions that I made. Okay. But then at the end, it was shown that you gotta forgive yourself. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. You can't just dwell on this. Like it was showing my imperfections. And then at the end of it, for the other ceremonies, I was left on a high. Mm-hmm. I was. But you kind of have to face these things to process it internally. And I, there's a lot of studies going on, but the thing with me is I don't need to know how it works. I just know that it works. Okay. And a lot of other people, it's a human instinct to be like, we need to know everything about it. We need to say, this is the process. I don't care. I know it works, so fuck it, let's go for it. And the downsides, I don't see '

[01:26:51] Travis Bader: em. Well, how do you titrate something that's plant-based like that? Because you don't know if you're getting something that's, uh. Super

[01:27:00] potent or not potent or, I mean, with the manmade stuff you can titrate because you know exactly what they've put into it. But with this, is it a bit of a craft shoot?

[01:27:10] Sonny Smith: It is, but these people in the tribe that I went to do ayahuasca, that's their trade. They've done it for hundreds of years in a lineage passed down. Um, so some brews, they cook it on site there every few days. Some brews are stronger than others. Mm. It's just known. So, and also when you go through the journey, sometimes you'll have a strong effect off the same amount of liquid. And the, there's benefits to having a strong effect. There's benefits to having a weaker effect. Hmm. Like I had some very strong ones. The, the troublesome one for me was quite a strong dose. They call it a bomber, and they say when you're there, you should try and have a bomber at some point, because that's where you're gonna get. You know, you've gone too far at that point, and then you're trying to find your working dose where you can work through things. It's running quite a medical

[01:28:00] kind of setting. There's facilitators who are like medical professionals who go through your intentions and they translate to the charman who is on this kind of sacred spiritual role. Mm. So it's kind of a merging of the two things. Now. I believe that's the way it has to be done. Obviously pharmaceutical companies and that are gonna try and get in on it. Sure. Yeah. But the reason I went to Peru is because there's a respect there with the shamans and the tribal people that have been doing it for thousands of years, that there's a. I, I want to go and get it from them. Sure. You know, they've been carrying on these traditions, um, for a long time. They've been healing people. Um, and there's something about that, there's something about being in the, the rainforest and being in nature and the way of life that they have. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's also something that I found from psilocybin that I did in this country on my own, not with a, a retreat or anything. Um,

 [01:29:00] like the First Nations native way of life of taking what you need and being at one with nature. That's a recurring message that is kind of universal to the experience, which is one that, hmm. Would be good for humanity to adopt. 'cause the greed of man is the root of all evil.

[01:29:18] Travis Bader: Is there a big difference between psilocybin and ayahuasca?

[01:29:21] Sonny Smith: Yeah.

[01:29:22] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, there is,

[01:29:25] Sonny Smith: but ayahuasca's stronger. It's more intense experience. The. Visuals, um, uh, and it's longer psilocybin is, is, it's a different kind of thing, but you can still achieve great healing from it. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think there's benefit to being in this setting where the shamans look after you, the facilitators are there to help if you need help, and then the next day you integrate the whole experience as a group with the shaman. You ask questions, they say, what happened? What did you see? How, how did this feel? Also

 [01:30:00] part of that ceremony is they take you up during the night, during the full on effects. You, the facilitator takes you up to the shaman and he sings a healing song. Mm. To whatever intention that you've given, like a, an ailment on your body, a mental health thing. Sure. Um, and that actually is the way that it used to be. 'cause these shamans, they drink the medicine at the same time as you. So they're drinking it ing like five times a week for like

[01:30:26] Travis Bader: holy, their whole life. Well, it's gotta build up a tolerance in, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, so is that what you're looking at or would you be a shaman or a facilitator or what?

[01:30:35] Sonny Smith: Uh, no, no, I wouldn't be a shaman. They have to study for years and years and years. Got it. It's a very respectful thing. It's like becoming a black belt in Juujitsu, that sort of, and you'd have to

[01:30:43] Travis Bader: sing in.

[01:30:44] Sonny Smith: Yeah. Is that all? Yeah, yeah. No, my role would be a facilitator, um, where I would be sober in the ceremony space. It's pitch black, it's big moloka, like big circle, heart, massive. Mm. And the shaman's on one

 [01:31:00] side. So you need to be brought up to the shaman and then back. And sometimes you need to go to the washroom and they bring you to the washroom and back in the dark. Hmm. And also. Just be like, uh, just a guy there that is for veterans is the thing, right? And having someone that's been through the experience and is on their side and if they want to get out of there, I often get out of there. Do you know what I mean? And this also letting yourself go in an environment, especially for Veterinary's, been through war is a hard thing, right? Just to know that someone else is there. Like, don't worry, no one's turning up. There's no police gonna come in. There's no animals for the real animals. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just that security blanket. So yeah. And also all the information leading up to it. And afterwards, there's certain protocols you have to follow, like a strict diet, uh, two weeks before. And, um, you kind of weeding out. Technology and stuff in the weeks before and preparing yourself for the ceremonies. So if

[01:32:00] people wanted to learn more about that, where would you direct them? Uh, do the Reiki is my Instagram page. Mm-hmm. Um, I've actually got quite a bit of interest for my thing. I'm doing like a six guy trip down there and I've pretty much filled that. But in the years to come, so I'm gonna be doing. One a year. So I'm gonna be going in May, June, um, with veterans and guiding them. Uh, I won't, I did do a video about it on YouTube to promote that and just talk about my personal experience. Gotcha. It's like the first video on my channel, so if anyone wants to learn more, the reason I made that video is to show the facilities of where I go. Mm-hmm. Um, the process, I talk about the things that I went through in the ceremony is kind of a behind the scenes look so people can get a bit of more information. Um, but yeah, my thing isn't open to, to everyone anyway. It'll be a small, small knit team going down and, uh, doing it. Um, and I won't be videoing it or nothing like that. Come on guys. Come on down. Be on the YouTube channel.

[01:32:59] Travis Bader: Totally

 [01:33:00] safe. Don't worry. Only us here and then the millions of people who watching my channel. Oh man. Is there anything we should be talking about that we haven't talked about? Uh.

[01:33:10] Sonny Smith: I

[01:33:10] Travis Bader: can't think of anything. We should pressed record at the beginning before we, uh, conversation. Yeah. We had some interesting conversations

[01:33:16] Sonny Smith: back then, didn't we?

[01:33:17] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:18] Sonny Smith: Yeah, this year I plan to fight in the next couple of months. Um, I've just released the book. I've got the YouTube channel. The YouTube is basically teaching the techniques in the book. So one of those videos, like a paragraph in the book? Yes. Or a few pages. And I've got content for years from that. 'cause there's so many, so much information in the book. Yeah. So it's just a visual reputation representation of. Showing how the technique will work. That's the goal. And I plan to travel around the world and test my skills in dodgy situations. I feel like I can't just fucking live a normal life. I want a bit of excitement. Yeah. I, I drive boats for a living now and it's gets

[01:34:00] boring and then the weather comes in and it's like fucking logs in there and there's waves and there's wind and I'm like, yeah, this is it. Let's go out. And then they're like, you need that? Yeah. And then they're like, oh no, it's too rough. We're gonna call it. I'm like, fuck, come on.

[01:34:13] Travis Bader: Want some excitement. You know, I, when on the boat situation, I, uh, actually sold our, our boat recently, but had a, uh, aluminum Hughes craft about 20 feet long, 18 foot boat, two foot trance. Nice. And, um, the people I bought it from, I was like, well, like, what do I gotta watch out for?And they gimme some ideas and weather conditions and all the rest, but they said, you know. You ever see a boat washed up on a, on a beach somewhere? I'm like, yeah, the boats will make it if you can hold on. Right. They can withstand rough conditions, much rougher than you're gonna ever be able to withstand. Yeah. 'cause I was concerned about what the boat could handle or not says. Um, if you just keep that in the back of your mind, the the boat will do it. Yeah. Hold onto the boat and just go on through. That'll

[01:35:00] probably alleviate some of the, uh, the trepidation that you might have in some of these gnarly weather conditions. Yeah, and it did. I just said, alright, we'll just go slow if it's going up and down and stuff. Banging into it. We'll get there. The boat will wash up somewhere if we can hold on, we're good. Yeah. Pretty resilient. You need, uh, you need that excitement in your life, otherwise you're not living. Exactly. Yeah. I think everyone's like that. Yeah. I had a, uh, recent podcast with a fellow and uh, become an out soon, but he's building a refuge for the Man on fire and uh, he says he thinks that's sea. That's the endangered species that we should be looking out for. That people's Oh,

[01:35:40] Sonny Smith: the, uh, jellyfish, is it? No. The man on fire?

[01:35:43] Travis Bader: No, no, the man on fire for the people who maybe don't fit into the rule system, who want to go out. Oh, okay. He's got a, uh, thousand or two acres of property and he wants to have about 30,000 acres and be able to do, you know, if you wanna get crazy, get crazy,

 [01:36:00] like, sounds a lot fun. Interesting. Okay. But he's, he's talking about the spirit of people and how you need to have that sense of danger, otherwise you're not living and Yeah. And uh, I see that thing coming up more and more again.

[01:36:14] Sonny Smith: Exactly. Yeah. That's probably my midlife crisis, getting into bare knuckle books. Oh, there you go. Hey, we'll do it while you're

[01:36:21] Travis Bader: still young enough to do it. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's, yeah, that's all good. Okay, man. Well, sunny, thank you so much. It was, uh, amazing having you on the podcast as usual.

Thanks for having me again. See you next time. Yes.