Silvercore Podcast 155 Heath Jackson

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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Today's episode is a powerful conversation, exploring profound success alongside significant personal challenges, delving deep into mental health and sensitive topics like self-harm. You'll hear the journey of a remarkable individual whose experiences offer insights and hope highlighting the strength it takes to rebuild and reclaim life from adversity.

[00:00:36] Travis Bader: If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal ideation or thoughts of self harm, we've included links to helpful resources in the episode description. Being proactive is far better than the alternative before we dive in. With the increasing importance of supporting Canadian businesses, I'd like to acknowledge some outstanding Canadian companies who partner with Silver Corps outdoors.

[00:01:01] Travis Bader: These businesses generously provide exclusive discounts to Silver Corps Club members, including Armament Technology from Nova Scotia, ook Cases in Quebec, marathon watches in Ontario, Fortnite Optics in British Columbia, bear Watch Systems, frontiersman Gear, eye Hunter International Barrels, marks Stuffer Supply Company.

[00:01:24] Travis Bader: This is Coffee Vertex Solutions and Splendid Bastard Beard Supply. Your support of these Canadian companies not only benefits you with exclusive discounts, but also strengthens local communities across the country. Now, without further ado, let's get on with this podcast. I'm joined today by someone who's lived a life of resilience and action.

[00:01:47] Travis Bader: Raised in Zimbabwe, he's tackled anti-poaching, law enforcement, close protection and private investigation. But beyond the high stakes world he operates in, his true passion is mentoring others through adversity and helping victims of domestic abuse reclaim their strength through True haven. Welcome to the Silver Court podcast, Heath Jackson.

[00:02:06] Travis Bader: Thank you very much, Travis. Pleasure to be here. I was, uh, intrigued. You've done one podcast before. You referenced that one to me. I did a little bit of background and, and checking on you and seeing what you're all about. You've led a pretty interesting life. Yeah. If you leave out all the bad stuff, it's not bad.

[00:02:23] Travis Bader: Oh, we don't have any bad stuff on our lives. Come on. Um, yeah, you know what that was, that's one of the questions I would ask people. I would say, uh, knowing what you know now, would you go back and change anything? Or what would you tell a 20-year-old or 15-year-old you with all the experience you have and I.

[00:02:41] Travis Bader: Time and again, everyone says I wouldn't change a thing. 

[00:02:43] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:44] Travis Bader: Because it's all of those bad things that teach us those lessons that we need to know. Yeah. That we need to learn. And if we'd shortcut those by any way, we wouldn't be who we are now. Yeah, that's true. So in my reaching out, I'm just gonna read this little part.

[00:02:59] Travis Bader: An individual who's a friend of mine, a friend of yours, getting a little bit of background. His last party says, uh, he just tells me about you and all the rest. He says he's a good and solid CP operator, as well as private investigator. He loves the outdoors and spends a lot of time in quote secret areas of the bush, swimming in pools and having outdoor barbecues.

[00:03:21] Travis Bader: He's also a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but nothing too extreme that I know about. All in all, a good bugger as we'd say in Zi. That's right. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. That had to be Darren. You got it. That's Darren. Yeah. Um. So you grew up in Zim? I did. You're born in, uh, in the US I was, okay. What, when did you move over to Zimbabwe?

[00:03:42] Heath Jackson: So, uh, I dunno how far back you want me to go. Um, my grandparents made their way over to what was then Rhodesia, and I was Zimbabwe back in the early forties. Mm-hmm. Uh, as missionaries and, um, set up my, my grandfather, they went to a really remote part of the country. It was a, a long, tedious journey to get there.

[00:04:04] Heath Jackson: And, um, he built a, a church and then a house. Uh, and they, they sort of set up there. They were inaccessible, um, six months outta the year. And, you know, just there, there was no infrastructure there, no roads, no electricity, no, no sort of water supply, anything like that. So very, very remote. Um, my dad was born there.

[00:04:27] Heath Jackson: I. And raised there. He, he spoke Shauna, the, the local language, the indigenous language, before he spoke English. Mm. And grew up, um, on the backs of the African women in the village there. Um, so he was, he was deeply immersed in that culture. 

[00:04:45] Travis Bader: And that your father's bud, is it? 

[00:04:47] Heath Jackson: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Uh, well, you have done a lot of background investigation.

[00:04:52] Heath Jackson: A little bit. I like to know who I'm talking to and Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Buddy or bud. Um, so he, my, my dad, uh, so that's, that's one side of the story. My mom's parents, um, for three or four generations we're in South Africa. Um, actually one of her, one of her, um, ancestors worked on Robin Island, where Nelson Mandela was incarcerated.

[00:05:18] Heath Jackson: Ah, in the lighthouse. 

[00:05:20] Travis Bader: Interesting. 

[00:05:20] Heath Jackson: And, um. Yeah, so she, she has a deep history there as well. And so they, they met and got married. Um, my dad was involved in the, in the security forces during the Rhodesian Bush war. Mm. Uh, which was a terrorist war. Um, went on for 20 odd years. Yeah. Started in, around, uh, actually I don't think it was as long as 20 years, but, you know, there were sort of rumblings that started way back and then it came to a head.

[00:05:50] Heath Jackson: Um, yeah, he was, he was in the British South Africa Police, which were the Rhodesian security forces internally. And, uh, my uncles, both of my uncles were as well. Uh, I can go into a little more detail on that. It's pretty interesting. But they, once, once the war had sort of started to, to conclude, um, my parents went over to the States to attend Bible college.

[00:06:14] Heath Jackson: And that's when I was born, so, okay. I was born in South Carolina and they, they finished their studies and moved back to 

[00:06:21] Travis Bader: Zimbabwe when I was two. What impact did the Rhodesian Bush wars have on your father that you noticed growing up? 

[00:06:29] Heath Jackson: Uh, in terms of, you know, things like negative impacts, like PTSD, that kind of thing.

[00:06:35] Heath Jackson: I, I never noticed anything. Hmm. Um, I noticed positive impacts that I, I assume had something to do with his experience doing the Bush war. Uh, those, you know, things like being capable and competent in the bush, capable and competent with firearms. Um, handling himself in tough situations. I, I assume a lot of that came from, from his experience in the security forces.

[00:06:59] Travis Bader: Isn't that interesting? Now I left that question open-ended. Mm-hmm. So it could be answered either way, but isn't it interesting the perspective that we have when we look back on challenging times in our lives and the difference that it makes on just how we coped day today, that that little perspective, it's either a negative or a positive, or maybe it's not quite so black and white, but still look at the positive.

[00:07:21] Heath Jackson: Yeah, I think a lot of people tend to, they tend to sort of highlight the negative impacts of being involved in conflict, uh, especially when it comes to armed conflict situations in, in a military context or even policing. Uh, but there are, I, I believe there are a lot of positives that come out of that, that are less obvious.

[00:07:42] Travis Bader: Hmm. Yeah. Why do you think it is that people highlight it? Like, I've got my theories? 

[00:07:46] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Because that's what's what impacts you the most. Hmm. You know, people tend to, they tend to pick up on the negatives in their life, uh, and, and tend to overlook the fact that, hey, you know, when my vehicle broke down, um, I made a plan and, and got it running because I had experience with that.

[00:08:05] Heath Jackson: Or, um, you know, when I, when I encountered this difficult situation, I, I took a plan of action approach and didn't allow it to bog me down like it would someone who had no experience in adverse circumstances. 

[00:08:18] Travis Bader: Right. Uh, 

[00:08:19] Heath Jackson: and that's because I was in the military, they, they tend not to think about that, I think.

[00:08:24] Travis Bader: Right, right. Um, so growing up, you spent a lot of time in the bush yourself. I did. Yeah. You're out hunting, fishing all my time in the bush. All your time. Tell me about it. That sounds amazing. 

[00:08:36] Heath Jackson: Yeah. My teacher, my, my mom was my teacher, uh, up until grade seven. My dad built a little schoolhouse on our property, so we actually left the home and went into the schoolhouse and mom would come in and teach us.

[00:08:49] Heath Jackson: Uh, for the first half of the day, I, I had a, a pate gun hidden behind the bookcase in the classroom. And when she would leave to go and do things, I'd be shooting things out the window, um, crows or whatever. Sure. And, uh, yeah, that. As soon as school was over, then it was party time. Um, and I had little African friends, especially that lived next door to me.

[00:09:14] Heath Jackson: Uh, his name was Tendai and his little brother, my peepee, um, believe it or not. And they, I'd, I'd go over and link up with them once I was done my, my school obligations. And we would take off barefoot in a pair of shorts with my 22 from about age nine or 10. Um, and we lived right on the edge of a little town.

[00:09:37] Heath Jackson: Uh, so our, our yard opened up onto just an expansive bush. That was sort of no man's land. And we would take off, uh, sometimes overnight and, and go hunting and, you know, find our own food, pick our own food, make little shelters to, to hang out in or sleep over in. And yeah, that was, that was my childhood playing in rivers, you know, chasing, catching wild animals to keep.

[00:10:04] Heath Jackson: Um, 

[00:10:04] Travis Bader: so that's why Darren says you still secret, secret places to go barbecue 

[00:10:08] Heath Jackson: and, 

[00:10:08] Travis Bader: and swim. 

[00:10:09] Heath Jackson: I believe so. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not the biggest fan of most people, so I like, I like finding the remote areas. I have some secret gems, um, locally, you know, kind of behind mission that I go to. Like we in a mission.

[00:10:24] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Nice try. Um, I could draw you a map, you know, there you go. And swear you to secrecy. There 

[00:10:30] Travis Bader: you go. 

[00:10:30] Heath Jackson: Uh, or just take you and show you myself, but yeah, this sounds good. Yeah. I like the ones that are less, less frequented, less inhabited. 

[00:10:37] Travis Bader: And so you say, you know, not a big fan of people. Yeah. Is that because you're used to not having many people around and there's a certain comfort to that?

[00:10:46] Travis Bader: I don't 

[00:10:46] Heath Jackson: think so. Um, I don't, I wouldn't say I'm an introvert. I'm not an extrovert either. I'm somewhere in the middle. Um, I think it's just, I think part of that is culture. You know, I'm, there are a lot of things about first world culture that, that b me, um, the sense of entitlement and, um, a lack of regard for other people, a lack of common decency.

[00:11:12] Heath Jackson: I. And, uh, you know, of, of course it doesn't apply to everyone in the first world, but by and large, a lot of the, the sort of silly, silly, uh, city dweller types that, that come out and try to find those, those spots that I enjoy so much Mm. Tend to show up with a big boombox and their pit bull and their man purse, and I hate that.

[00:11:34] Heath Jackson: And a bunch of weed and Yeah. Um, and they, they like to make their presence very well known and it sort of detracts from the whole purpose of getting away from things and out into nature when you have that around you. 

[00:11:46] Travis Bader: Yeah. I've never understood that. You go on a hike and you see somebody else and they're carrying a boom box.

[00:11:51] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. And they're blasting the music. I mean, like, if you really wanna listen to something, I mean, you can put on a headset and put in your earbuds, whatever, but they want everybody else to hear what they're listening to. Yeah. Yeah. It's just. I, I don't get it. No, I don't get it either, but, uh, but I definitely can appreciate the wanting to get away and having a sense of freedom.

[00:12:11] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Right. The freedom that the ocean brings, the freedom that the hills bring, the freedom that the more difficult places where the average Jill and Joe won't be traveling to will. And if you run into somebody else, hopefully they've gone through that same difficulty Yeah. Endeavor to get there and they might share a similar mindset or respect for it.

[00:12:32] Travis Bader: Yeah, 

[00:12:32] Heath Jackson: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, I had a, I had a thought there that was really good and it's gone though. 

[00:12:39] Travis Bader: I do that all the time. This is why I got a pen and paper in my notepad. I gotta badly jot this stuff down. I can't 

[00:12:44] Heath Jackson: write and, and listen at the same time though, that's the problem. I'm, I'm too male to multitask.

[00:12:50] Travis Bader: I love it. Yeah. So, uh, you were involved with anti-poaching? Yes. I, um, recently, um. Had a fellow reach out probably reached out to you as well, saying that you've got a friend who's looking to getting into anti-poaching look. Yeah. Said, 

[00:13:04] Heath Jackson: yep. 

[00:13:05] Travis Bader: You got it. Yep. Um, what, tell me about anti-poaching. 

[00:13:10] Heath Jackson: Um, well, my exposure to that was fairly limited.

[00:13:13] Heath Jackson: It was right outta high school. Um, so when I was in high school, so I mentioned my mom taught me till grade seven, grade eight, um, which over in Zimbabwe is form one. They followed the British system of education. So form one through six, six years of high school, um, they sent me off to boarding school.

[00:13:32] Heath Jackson: Okay. And, um, basically bootcamp, uh, with, with classes. Okay. So very regimented, very structured, very, very formal. Um, Anglican boarding school, uh, very British. And um, I. While I was in boarding school, on one of the school holidays, I attended a survival camp. Mm. Uh, in a, in a spot on the border with Zambia. Uh, the, the sort of premise was they would teach you bushcraft skills for a week.

[00:14:07] Heath Jackson: So we, we went, there was, um, co-ed course, they had a big sort of, uh, sleeping accommodation, just an A-frame. Okay. Open at the bottom with a concrete pad and a loft. So the, the girls would sleep upstairs. Mm-hmm. The guys would sleep down on the concrete pad. And each morning we'd get up, we'd have PT and so physical training?

[00:14:29] Heath Jackson: Yep. Uh, so we'd wake up at six, do our pt, and then go on a, on a bushcraft walk. And they would teach us things like, um, making string from bark or cordage as they call it, or trap building or, um, tracking or any, any other number of bushcraft exercises. And the idea was during that week to teach us the skills we would need to use in a survival situation.

[00:14:52] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:14:53] Heath Jackson: And then you would go back at a separate time for 10 day survival, um, exercise. So cool. They would take us and drop us off in a group and, um. And you'd have to use those skills that you learned while you were in training. There was no instructor with you when you were on the survival phase. Uh, so yeah, it was really, really interesting.

[00:15:15] Heath Jackson: Um, you know, you, you learn a lot about yourself, you learn a lot about your peers. Uh, the people that went in there very popular came out not so popular. Yeah. And, uh, the quieter ones came out really popular. Um, it was just really, really interesting once you peel away all the, the comforts of life and people are put in a survival situation mentally, especially to see who has the resilience and composure to be able to make it through an exercise like that.

[00:15:42] Heath Jackson: So, 

[00:15:44] Travis Bader: yeah. So if I'm gonna go, gonna go out in a bit of a limb here. Mm-hmm. You're probably one of the quiet ones that went in there. I was, yeah. There you go. 

[00:15:52] Heath Jackson: I was, yeah. I was never, I was never one of the popular kids. Mm. I was a, a scrawny little runt and, uh, bullied heavily for the first four years or so of high school.

[00:16:01] Heath Jackson: What does, what does that look like? Uh, mostly, mostly verbal intimidation. Hmm. Um, yeah. People, so for example, I was in a dorm room, uh, for quite a long stretch with, there were eight of us in the dorm room. Um, I was the only white kid in there. Uh, as, as I recall, there may have been one other one. And, and every night after lights out, they, they would taunt me, uh, relentlessly, you know, and, uh, yeah, without going into too much detail mm-hmm.

[00:16:32] Heath Jackson: Uh, they'd talk about things that they, that they wanted to do to my mom and my sister or Mm. Um, it was this very sort of chest puffing, um, a lot of racial tension mm-hmm. Um, and resentment that, that sort of sied and, and I would just lie there and, and ignore it. And after a while it takes a toll. Um, sure.

[00:16:57] Heath Jackson: Until eventually one day I, I stood up for myself and, and the sort of. The main antagonist, um, stood up to him and, and that was basically the end to the bullying. And yeah, moved on from there and became someone that, you know, I found, I found myself in a situation where other guys that were struggling with, with bullying would come to me and I was able to sort of step in, um, on their behalf or talk to the bully or give them advice, that kind of thing.

[00:17:27] Heath Jackson: And, and that was really rewarding for me. So I, I think it also, it kind of coincided with like, I had never been involved with group sports, team sports other than playing soccer with a, a soccer ball made outta plastic bags all tied together. That's awesome. Um, in the dirt with running around trees, you know?

[00:17:46] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Like that, that was, that was my team sport exposure until boarding school. And that was when I, I. You know, it was mandatory to, to fill up your afternoon sort of slots with sports. Mm. You had to sign up. So I had exposure to everything from soccer, water polo, squash, um, to rugby field, hockey, you know, cricket, um, cross country.

[00:18:11] Heath Jackson: We had a, it was a huge opportunity. We had, um, a mountain biking team. We had a triathlon team. There was a climbing club. Uh, there was a snake club, falconry club. Sounds amazing. Yeah, it was pretty awesome. I mean, that's how my parents sold me on it to begin with. They told me about all the things I could try.

[00:18:30] Heath Jackson: Yeah. And, and I was really excited, but I, what I didn't know was how hard it would be to be away from home three weeks at a time and Yeah. And, and stuck in a situation where I wasn't just around other missionary kids or African buddies I'd made friends with. I was around all kinds of kids from all different walks of life and.

[00:18:51] Heath Jackson: Who had nothing in common with me. Um, and I had to learn how to relate to them. That was a challenging exercise. I didn't have a safe place to go to fall back on, or, you know, I, I just had to figure it out for myself, which was fantastic. Um, but at the time was terrible. 

[00:19:08] Travis Bader: Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I never, it's funny how guys and girls will do it as well.

[00:19:15] Travis Bader: They push and they test each other. But guys, it just seems like a constant. Poke, poke, poke. Let's see where their limits are. Yeah. Where their boundaries are. And there's a game that's played. Mm-hmm. And some people can play it very well and other people like myself will just ignore it 'cause I don't wanna play that game.

[00:19:29] Travis Bader: And then it comes to a point where you gotta do something. And the response is way over the top. It shuts down and it's like, okay, now that's not the way to properly, properly deal with these things. Like it solve the issue now, but it didn't solve all the poking and then the hurt feelings when the on the other side.

[00:19:48] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I was, I was a tender little guy back then. I didn't have a thick skin at all. Very sensitive. Um, I took everything personally. I had a lot to learn. I was just a, I was a kid and I think a lot of, a lot of what I took as, as a tax, um, was just, uh, the, the terms alluding, you know, it was, um, it was just comradery.

[00:20:11] Heath Jackson: It was just razzing each other, like, you know, teasing each other because they, they, or teasing me because they liked me, you know? Right. They care 

[00:20:18] Travis Bader: or they wanna like you. Yeah, they wanted, 

[00:20:20] Heath Jackson: yeah. And I didn't take it that way, you know, to me it was, it was an attack. So, 

[00:20:25] Travis Bader: you know, so I've been vocal about the fact I've got a DHD, or, or at least I've been diagnosed with A-D-H-D-I.

[00:20:32] Travis Bader: Still scratching my head whether I got it or not. I know, I know. I was, uh, put on a very large dosage of Ritalin from grade three, and I took myself off when I went in grade eight. Some experimental run. Talked about this before, but one of the things that coincides with A DHD is, uh, what, what do they call rejection sensitivity, dysmorphia or dysphoria.

[00:20:52] Travis Bader: Um, basically you take everything pretty damn personal and you think, well, they meant to do that. And yeah. And, and there's a sort of a disconnect in the head for the intentions behind why somebody's doing something. Hmm. Interesting. When I look at your background and likes extreme sport sports and Adrenaline junkie and all the rest, like, oh, you know, there's, there's a lot of things here that kind of tick the boxes for what they, uh, what they end up diagnosing me with.

[00:21:17] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Maybe, maybe. Who knows? I mean. Growing up, there was no A DHD there, there, none of the kids I knew had any allergies. There were no, there was no, um, dyslexia. There was no, like, none of that. And I don't know if it's just because we all drank food or ate food straight out of the ground or off the farm and drank milk to the hose straight out of the cow.

[00:21:39] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Um, and so it wasn't, you know, we didn't have problems with carcinogens and stuff, or, or if it's because there was no diagnosis and, and people did have those things. 

[00:21:50] Travis Bader: That's a good question. Yeah. I'm not sure. I think 

[00:21:52] Heath Jackson: maybe a bit of both. 

[00:21:53] Travis Bader: I think it's a bit of both. Yeah. I think, I think people put attention to something and the more they put that attention to it, they start wearing it.

[00:21:59] Travis Bader: Right. I am my anxiety. Mm-hmm. Or my, my A DHD, well, no, it's not mine. Right. It's just something that. I'll, I'll deal with and I'll work with, and I still question whether I have it or not. 'cause there's plenty of times when I don't exhibit any of those symptoms. When I'm out in the wild, when I'm in an environment that matches 

[00:22:16] Heath Jackson: mm-hmm.

[00:22:17] Travis Bader: My personality type. And 

[00:22:19] Heath Jackson: yeah. I think a lot of people make the mistake of taking a diagnosis as a life sentence and they sort of surrender to the fact that, well, I have this and that excuses that behavior so I don't have to work on it. Um, that really bothers me. Mm. Um, people that sort of give into things like anxiety, um, or depression.

[00:22:38] Heath Jackson: Um, I mean, I'm not a psychologist. I, you know, I'm just, this is just my opinion. Based on what I've been through, which we'll probably get to at some point. But, you know, I've been diagnosed with some, some of those things and, and I'm not anymore. Um, so it's not a life sentence, it is something you can work on.

[00:22:55] Heath Jackson: You, you are able to change as an individual. People have the, the ability to take the reins of their mind and, and channel their thoughts and control their thoughts instead of being dictated to by them. 

[00:23:06] Travis Bader: But that's not the popular opinion. No. The popular opinion is, man, I'm not fitting in with what's going on around me.

[00:23:13] Travis Bader: There must be something wrong with me. Mm-hmm. And that's, you know, the old analogy of trying to judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. Right? It's always gonna look bad compared to the monkey, right? Yeah. But, but that monkey in the water and the fish excels, right. Um, I think the popular opinion is people.

[00:23:31] Travis Bader: Desperately want to fit in. And we see that time and time again. And as much as people say they don't, you look at covid, right? People talking in hushed tones. If they had a contrary opinion because they didn't want to be ostracized by the rest of the group. And some people, I, I didn't speak that, that hushed Well, it's, it's, it's funny how, uh, social of an animal we are.

[00:23:56] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. And they say, well, I want to fit in. I want to, I'm, I'm not studying right. Or I'm not retaining information, or I seem like I'm hyper proactive, or whatever it might be. Doc, what can we do? And our system says, well, I don't know. I think there's a pill for that. Right. I, I think there's something we can give you, we can 

[00:24:15] Heath Jackson: give you a label and a prescription.

[00:24:17] Travis Bader: That's it. 

[00:24:17] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[00:24:18] Travis Bader: We'll diagnose you. Okay. Well, I, I, I personally don't think these diagnoses are really worth a heck of a lot. Mm-hmm. Um. When you were talking about PTSD earlier, right? You look at cultures of warrior classes that come back and they're lauded as heroes for going to war and protecting the others.

[00:24:37] Travis Bader: And, and they can live their life proud and they could have seen the same atrocities and hardships that a, uh, another society welcomes them back and says, you guys are baby killers. How could you do it? Mm-hmm. We shouldn't have gone to war to begin with. And this, the social, the perspective that individuals have of themselves, I think greatly influences how their body responds and how their mind responds to it.

[00:25:05] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:25:07] Heath Jackson: I 

[00:25:07] Travis Bader: agree. 

[00:25:09] Heath Jackson: So, I mean, to get back to the anti-poaching piece, um, that, that course that I went on, they, they sort of extended an invite for me to come back after high school and spend some time there with them if I wanted to. So that's what I did. Mm-hmm. And, um, that's when I had my exposure to, to the anti-poaching.

[00:25:25] Heath Jackson: Uh, so they basically were given a, a, a huge tract of land by national parks to use for education purposes. And the, the caveat sort of was that they would be responsible for the anti-poaching, um, exercises in that area. So the, the group, the course was run by ex SLU scouts, which were, I'm sure you're familiar, but very, very specialized unit.

[00:25:51] Heath Jackson: Um, they actually recruited from the SAS and other branches. Um, these guys were, they make the Navy Seals look like. Uh, regular infantry. They were, they, they were incredible. They're good at what they do, very good at what they did, and, and a wealth of knowledge to, to, to be able to learn from. Mm. And awesome guys to be around good, solid people.

[00:26:13] Heath Jackson: So that was, you know, I, I went on, uh, patrols with them, responded with them to, to calls and, and that kind of thing for, for a 

[00:26:22] Travis Bader: period before 

[00:26:23] Heath Jackson: I 

[00:26:23] Travis Bader: made my way over here. So a friend from South Africa sitting having some sushi, he gets a text coming in, makes kind of a bit of a face. I'm like, what is it? He's like, ah, ah, you don't wanna see it.

[00:26:39] Travis Bader: Okay. Ah, here, I'll show it to you. It's, there's some poachers they caught Right. And shows me a picture and they got four of 'em on the, on the fence and they're lined up dead. Yep. And they just kill 'em. Yep. Is that, was that the response that you were Um, 

[00:26:53] Heath Jackson: uh, so. It may have been, it may have varied from place to place.

[00:26:57] Heath Jackson: Um, our sort of modus operandi was you give them an, an opportunity to surrender and, and if, if they don't, then majority of the time they'd end up dead. Not because, um, it was an, an inappropriate use of force, but because if they weren't gonna surrender, they would try to fight their way out. Mm. Um, the majority of the time it was a case of them running with their AK over their shoulder firing as they ran.

[00:27:21] Heath Jackson: Mm. That was sort of, they weren't, they weren't the most efficient killing teams. Um, they were funded by and large by Chinese interests and would come across the border to, to hunt for ivory or, or rhino horn or in some cases, um, they were subsistence poachers. So coming over to get animals 'cause they were none.

[00:27:43] Heath Jackson: In the area they came from? Uh, either way it was poaching. Sure. And, you know, the odd occasion they would lie in ambush and if, if they knew we were, we were approaching or chasing them. Um, but yeah, that, that was, that did happen a lot. So 

[00:28:00] Travis Bader: if they surrendered, what was their consequence? 

[00:28:03] Heath Jackson: They'd be turned over to the police and I don't know, honestly, I don't know what happened from there.

[00:28:08] Heath Jackson: Probably not a very pleasant experience. No. Yeah. 

[00:28:11] Travis Bader: Okay. Yeah. Interesting. You did that for, for a little while. 

[00:28:15] Heath Jackson: Yeah. And then I had a scholarship, um, available to me for university and, uh. The sort of natural landing place for me was, was bc My, my grandparents had retired from Zimbabwe to Abbotsford, so came over here, um, applied to university first, of course, got accepted, came over here.

[00:28:35] Heath Jackson: Um, lived in there unfinished basement. Sort of made it my little man cave and, and attended university, uh, here in BC and then started putting down roots. There wasn't a whole lot to go back to in Zimbabwe. Uh, not, not the best, most fertile grounds for a young guy starting out his life. Um, there, there was a lot of, not, not, um, military unrest, but just civil unrest than land repossession and a whole mess, um, going on back home.

[00:29:07] Heath Jackson: So this, this provided more opportunities. I was fortunate enough to have Canadian citizenship through my dad and US citizenship by birth, so it was a good place for me to be. 

[00:29:19] Travis Bader: Right on the border, you can hop back and forth. Yeah. I guess work either side. 

[00:29:22] Heath Jackson: I did, yeah. I went down to North Carolina at one point, worked as an animal trainer.

[00:29:27] Heath Jackson: Um, and then later on down the road after, after all the, the nonsense I went through, went down to Texas and, and went to schooling for close protection. So that was, you know, four or five month course. 

[00:29:39] Travis Bader: So you worked as an animal trainer? I did. Was this like for the movies or is it for just, 

[00:29:45] Heath Jackson: they used the animals in movies and, uh, TV commercials.

[00:29:48] Heath Jackson: Okay. A lot of what they did with them was educational. So the, the place I worked was, uh, a natural science center. So it was kind of like if you combined Vancouver's Zoo, aquarium and Science world into one place, they had, they had everything, uh, all kinds of different sections. Um. That's cool. And yeah, so I was, I was, my title was the junior curator supervisor, so they had junior curators that were seasonal that would come in and work, um, basically looking after the animals.

[00:30:17] Heath Jackson: Mm. And, and that role extended because of my, my knowledge and history with animals in Zimbabwe. Um, you know, I didn't have any official qualifications, but my boss saw an opportunity there and they needed someone to, to handle the animals, um, for people that were filming and that kind of thing. So that was a role I stepped into.

[00:30:38] Travis Bader: What kinda animals? 

[00:30:39] Heath Jackson: We had a cougar, uh, we had a couple black bears, a bobcat, um, and then a bunch of smaller stuff, like they had raccoons and a sloth and, uh, possum, um, some monkeys, that kind of thing. 

[00:30:51] Travis Bader: That's pretty neat. Yeah. So working with these black bears in the cougar, that would be kind of, uh, 

[00:30:56] Heath Jackson: yeah.

[00:30:57] Heath Jackson: It was interesting. They were, they were very tame. Yeah. You know, they, they had been raised by people. Um, so it was, it was an easy sort of role to step into. Fair enough. 

[00:31:06] Travis Bader: Yeah. Do you hunt in bc? 

[00:31:08] Heath Jackson: I have, um, I don't hunt very much anymore. Mm. It's sort of lost its appeal for me, admittedly, maybe because it's a lot more work here than it was back home.

[00:31:19] Travis Bader: It is a lot of work, isn't it? 

[00:31:21] Heath Jackson: It is a lot of work. Uh, it takes a lot of time. It's a large investment. 

[00:31:24] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:31:24] Heath Jackson: Um, yeah, I have, I have hunted quite a, quite a bit in the first, uh, sort of 17 years that I was here. Mm. And, and more, more recently is just, haven't hunted as much. I've been, I've been pretty busy, so 

[00:31:38] Travis Bader: I've, um.

[00:31:39] Travis Bader: Um, almost all of my hunting's been in bc mm-hmm. However, I did recently do a hunt in Molokai in Texas and in Sweden. And the way that they hunt and the, the axis to, to game it was completely, completely different Yeah. Than over here. I was like, I I could be a very good bow hunter in these places over here, man.

[00:32:05] Travis Bader: I'm, I'm gonna be sticking to my rifle for a bit more anyways because, um, it is, it's harder. It's, yeah. I 

[00:32:09] Heath Jackson: think if, if you're a good hunter in BC you can be a good hunter pretty much anywhere. 

[00:32:14] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting to know, especially so, um, and you of course hunting back in Zimbabwe and you what game everywhere or, 

[00:32:24] Heath Jackson: yeah, I mean, so the hunting, the way the hunting works here is kind of different, um, as a, as a resident.

[00:32:31] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:32:31] Heath Jackson: Uh, it's very different to a foreigner going over there and hunting and Yeah. We would, you basically. Bid on, uh, what they call a bag. And a bag will have a number of different animals, of different species in it. Mm-hmm. That you're, you're allowed to, to take, to harvest, and it'll be for a specific sort of geographical area.

[00:32:55] Heath Jackson: Those, those numbers and species are determined by, um, population counts that national parks do, con conservation services do. And so they, they identify what the, what the ideal, uh, population is, the ideal number of males and females, um, in order to keep that, that particular species at an optimum level so that they don't, um, eat themselves out of their environment or, or, um, in the case of predators so that they don't.

[00:33:26] Heath Jackson: Decimate the population of their prey or, or not control it enough, right? So there's a delicate balance there. And the hunter's role is basically the culling of the, the animals that are deemed inefficient or, you know, not, not necessary for the optim levels. So yeah, we would typically, it would be two or three families.

[00:33:51] Heath Jackson: Um, my dad and his, his friends, um, and their families that would go to these hunting camps and set up, um, you know, we had it easy there. There's a lot of sort of manual labor from the farms. Most of my, my parents' friends were farmers. They had manual labor there. Their chance to go on a hunting trip was like their vacation of the year.

[00:34:10] Heath Jackson: They loved it. Yeah. Um, and so you, you'd go out on a hunt if you were able to harvest an animal, you'd come back to camp and you basically back the truck up to, to the sort of slaughter area. Mm-hmm. And the guys would take over from there and the, and the hunters would retreat to, you know, the spot around the pool or around a fire and, and have a cold snack.

[00:34:32] Heath Jackson: And, um. And everything else would be sort of taken care of. 

[00:34:36] Travis Bader: I love that. Yeah. That's spot around the pool. Yeah. You, you, you don't do that in bc? No. 

[00:34:41] Heath Jackson: No. 

[00:34:41] Travis Bader: How about Ong? You, you make Ong? Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:34:44] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[00:34:44] Travis Bader: There's a place in Langley where I get my built on from. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:34:47] Heath Jackson: Serengeti. 

[00:34:48] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah. How does that compare to what you It's good.

[00:34:50] Travis Bader: Yeah, 

[00:34:51] Heath Jackson: it's good. I mean, it's not game built on right. So obviously a bit of a different taste that they only process beef there. Um, I've, I've been on them about that, but they need a special license to process wildlife. I have made some of my own Moose Ong and Elk Ong over the years Love elk. Uh, yeah. But yeah, the, the, they're, they're good.

[00:35:13] Heath Jackson: They're authentic. 

[00:35:13] Travis Bader: Okay. Mm-hmm. That's good to know 'cause I get that stuff. Yeah. 

[00:35:17] Heath Jackson: Their chili 

[00:35:17] Travis Bader: bites are fantastic. Oh my God. They're addictive, aren't they? I just, I shouldn't 

[00:35:20] Heath Jackson: be mentioning it here. 'cause just like my secret outdoor spots now everyone's gonna be going there and looking for these things and they're not gonna have any when I go into the shop.

[00:35:27] Travis Bader: Well, hopefully it keeps 'em in business and, uh, and gets, uh, gets to make it more. 'cause I, I love those chili bites. Yeah. I'll just sit there and just slowly chew away with 'em. Oh, 

[00:35:35] Heath Jackson: they're addictive. Oh my God. 

[00:35:37] Travis Bader: Yeah. So you got yourself involved with, uh, border services for a bit? Yes. 

[00:35:42] Heath Jackson: I started off in corrections actually.

[00:35:44] Heath Jackson: Did 

[00:35:44] Travis Bader: you? Uh, yeah, 

[00:35:45] Heath Jackson: I started off in provincial corrections. 

[00:35:47] Travis Bader: That's kind of a tough job. It was 

[00:35:49] Heath Jackson: very negative workspace. Yeah. Yeah. Hugely. Yeah. I was fresh out of university and, and went in there. Um, at the time, the way it was structured, it was very difficult. They had a, you started off on what they call a call board.

[00:36:03] Heath Jackson: Okay. So you were basically a cushion for overtime and you, you weren't guaranteed full-time work. You didn't go straight into shift work. Mm. Um, they would call you in your, your performance when you applied, when you went through the in-house training, all that kind of stuff. Dictated where you were positioned on that call board.

[00:36:21] Heath Jackson: And then they would go down in order, uh, on the call board. And if people above you miss skip shifts or, or decline shifts, then they give you the opportunity. Mm. And so to start off with, I started at the beginning of the summer and, and worked like crazy all summer. I thought this is great. You know, I bought myself a new car and I was on my way.

[00:36:41] Heath Jackson: And then winter came and all the regular staff came back from their vacations and suddenly there was no work for five months, you know, six months. So, ouch. Yeah. I got a job in a copper warehouse to help, you know, cover that sort of dead period. Mm-hmm. Ended up being promoted to warehouse manager there and, and got pretty busy.

[00:37:01] Heath Jackson: And then corrections started calling me again and, and I couldn't break away to take the shifts and I had to sort of make a decision. So I opted for the stable income and, and yeah. Then a couple years after that, um, applied to CBSA and made it in there. 

[00:37:19] Travis Bader: So corrections, everyone that I've known that has worked provincial corrections, uh, they talk about how extremely negative the environment is.

[00:37:28] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, not only just dealing with the cons, but also with your coworkers. 

[00:37:33] Heath Jackson: Coworkers were worse. Just 

[00:37:35] Travis Bader: That's right. That's what I hear. Just, yeah. 

[00:37:37] Heath Jackson: Just the attitude. Yeah. People are so bitter, especially the people that have been there for a long time. I think they see a lot of really negative stuff.

[00:37:44] Heath Jackson: And I mean, it was, where I worked was what they call a, a quote unquote secure facility. Mm. What other people around the world would call maximum security, I guess. Okay. Uh, as, as maximum as you can get on a provincial level anyway. And yeah, you're, you're basically enclosed in a concrete box for your 12 hour shift.

[00:38:04] Heath Jackson: So not a lot of sunlight exposure, not a lot of nature, not a lot of anything positive. 

[00:38:10] Travis Bader: Um, not a big difference between you and the con in there for that 12 hour shift, is there 

[00:38:15] Heath Jackson: Yeah. No, no. Just different uniform basic, just different uniform. 

[00:38:19] Travis Bader: That's right. No one calls you a boss. Yeah, that's right. Or goof.

[00:38:22] Travis Bader: Or goof. Yeah. Don't say goof. No. Yeah. I don't know if that translates over to a, uh, a us prisons, but, uh, Canadian, I don't know. Canadian prison. That's like, that's pretty much the worst he could call. Yeah. Someone as a goof, eh, mean 

[00:38:34] Heath Jackson: as soon as I hear someone on the street using that word, I know they've been in prison.

[00:38:39] Heath Jackson: Right. They're a con They were a convict. Yeah. 

[00:38:42] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, or they've worked with cons. 

[00:38:45] Heath Jackson: Yeah, 

[00:38:45] Travis Bader: yeah. Yeah. They picked it up somewhere Negative. Any interesting experience working there? 

[00:38:50] Heath Jackson: Not particularly. No. Nothing. Nothing too striking. 

[00:38:54] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, 

[00:38:58] Heath Jackson: so I think that was, that was probably where I first learned that you, you can't judge the capacity of an individual to fight by their physique.

[00:39:06] Heath Jackson: Um, the, the one thing that comes to mind was this little Vietnamese guy. I mean, he was tiny. I. To maybe, maybe just over five foot if he was over five foot and, and pretty scrawny. And it took five of us to get him into a SAG unit. And yeah. That was interesting. As a, as a young guy Mm. Sort of my first exposure to that kind of thing.

[00:39:26] Heath Jackson: Yeah. It's, it was surprising how, how strong he was. 

[00:39:30] Travis Bader: Yeah. He was wiry ones, I tell ya. Yeah. 

[00:39:32] Heath Jackson: And I think the mentality has so much to do with the ability to fight. 

[00:39:37] Travis Bader: Yeah. They say it's not about the, uh, size of the dog and the fight, but the size of the fight and the dog. That's right. Yeah. And there is something to that, but often it's always the little people who say that one too.

[00:39:47] Travis Bader: Right. Yeah. Um, and then, so border services got on with there. Mm-hmm. And now you've got, thanks. A bit more respectable job. Yeah. You're still in uniform. Yeah. And you're, um, still had to sort of harass all the poor people at the border. That's right. Yeah. 

[00:40:03] Heath Jackson: Had to put in the, the grunt work hours in the booth, you know, processing travelers.

[00:40:07] Heath Jackson: But later on down the road it sort of branched out a little more and there was more opportunity, um, to do things like roving and, you know, to work on a special enforcement team and that kind of thing. So 

[00:40:18] Travis Bader: that's 

[00:40:18] Heath Jackson: kind 

[00:40:19] Travis Bader: of 

[00:40:19] Heath Jackson: cool. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:40:20] Travis Bader: So what, what is that, that gets you and you, you're confirmed you got someone importing things illegally, so you can go to their house or 

[00:40:27] Heath Jackson: No, that would be inland.

[00:40:28] Heath Jackson: Okay. For services. Um, no, it was more sort of. I don't wanna say special operations 'cause that has the wrong connotation, but, but unique operations where they would target specific incidences or, you know, if we had intelligence that a flight of people smugglers was coming in and um, you know, they would have, they would have the people that had paid them to bring them into Canada, flush their passports down the toilet, that kind of thing.

[00:40:53] Heath Jackson: And then become in undocumented and claim refugee status, that kind of thing. Or, um, 

[00:40:58] Travis Bader: is it pretty common? 

[00:41:00] Heath Jackson: Yeah, more common than you think? Mm, or at least it was back then. Um, we also would, would do like airside operations where you're out on the apron targeting, um, what quote unquote ramp rats, you know, the, the baggage handlers that got it.

[00:41:14] Heath Jackson: That are involved with the truckers Yeah. That are involved with, um, criminal elements and, um, picking up. Packages from the cargo holds of the planes, that kind of thing. 

[00:41:25] Travis Bader: Got it. Mm-hmm. That'd be kind of a fun one to do. 

[00:41:27] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[00:41:27] Travis Bader: Kinda gets you out, you gotta get your detective cap on a little bit. Yeah. And yeah, 

[00:41:31] Heath Jackson: it's anything that gets you outta that booth stuck in a bulletproof vest, processing people all day is, is good.

[00:41:38] Heath Jackson: Were you guys armed then? No. No. Uh, we were armed. Right, right. As I was leaving, as I, as I was resigning, we, we were starting to get armed. 

[00:41:46] Travis Bader: Okay. Yeah. 

[00:41:48] Heath Jackson: And 

[00:41:49] Travis Bader: you, how long, was it about five years or so, was it? No, 

[00:41:51] Heath Jackson: it was, uh, let see, 2000. Yeah, six 

[00:41:57] Travis Bader: years. Six years. Okay. Yeah. My research is off a little bit. Yeah.

[00:42:00] Travis Bader: Close. Maybe. I was looking at year old research close. Yeah. And, uh, and what made you leave that? 

[00:42:06] Heath Jackson: So my, my fiance at the time, um, actually. Wife at the time had a, a job opportunity on Vancouver Island. She was a, a radiation therapist. Hmm. Uh, so dealt with cancer patients and was very difficult to get full-time work in that field.

[00:42:25] Heath Jackson: Uh, she had an opportunity and so we decided to, to uproot and move over to the island. Um, I had always wanted to fly helicopters, so my goal was to go into flight school and bit by bit start working my way to rotary wing license. And, uh, two weeks after I resigned, um, all of that was derailed by, by a motorcycle accident.

[00:42:49] Heath Jackson: So, yeah. Tell me about that. 

[00:42:52] Travis Bader: Let's hear that one. 

[00:42:53] Heath Jackson: Yeah, I mean, that's basically why I'm here. I think, um, it was just, I, I had picked up some part-time work to cover the gap while we were moving and, um, I. Uh, after work one day, headed out to, we at the time was living in South Surrey, was heading out to Abbotsford.

[00:43:11] Heath Jackson: Uh, well, went out to Abbotsford, uh, worked on my, on my parents' boat with them. Um, and then went to the movies and mission with some friends of mine and was on my way home from, from the movies. This is June, so still light outside. Um, sort of later in the day. Very hot day. All I had on was jeans, flip flops, a t-shirt, and my helmet.

[00:43:36] Heath Jackson: Um, I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for that probably. And was heading home, um, riding down Bradner Road. Mm-hmm. And a, a young guy in a Passat with his buddies pulled out of a side street. So I, I, you can picture I'm heading south on Bradner. Mm-hmm. They pull out of a side street to make a left turn. Mm-hmm.

[00:43:58] Heath Jackson: In front of me. And, um. Uh, yeah, he, when he saw me coming, he slammed on the brakes and panicked, stopped right across the road and I had nowhere to go. Um, you know, it was deep ditches on either side. Mm-hmm. Um, I was going a little faster than I should have been. Mm-hmm. And I slammed into the side of that Passat, um, the bike, I, I, when I locked up the brakes, the, the bike sort of slid and laid down the bike.

[00:44:24] Heath Jackson: The bike went under the back of the car. I hit the side of the car, so the door jamb hit me sort of right behind my, my right arm. Mm-hmm. I broke all my ribs. Uh, my, I sort of got wedged under the car a bit, so broke my pelvis in four places. They close it, call it a clo closed book fracture. So your pelvis, which is kind of like a bowl shape, closes in front.

[00:44:47] Heath Jackson: Oh, ouch. And, yeah, broke my back, um, broke my scapula in half and I. You, I had a co bad concussion, had a collapsed lung, one of the ribs punctured and collapsed the lung. Mm. Severed spleen, lacerated liver. Um, a lot of road rash and No kidding. Yeah. Was conscious throughout the whole ordeal. And I, yeah, I, I recall the sort of the coppery taste, the, the blood in my mouth and couldn't really breathe very well, I guess because of the collapsed lung.

[00:45:21] Heath Jackson: Mm. And so I felt like, for whatever reason, I felt like my helmet was restricting my breathing. Mm. So pulled my, my own helmet off, and which I shouldn't have done. Um, fortunately it didn't exacerbate any problems, but yeah, it was a, it was an experience. 

[00:45:39] Travis Bader: No kidding. 

[00:45:40] Heath Jackson: I remember lying there and thinking, so going back to Zimbabwe and the unrest there, Mugabi was the president at the time.

[00:45:48] Heath Jackson: I. And I remember lying there and thinking as much as I loath that individual, I wouldn't even wish this pain on him. Mm. Uh, yeah. I remember that thought hitting me. 

[00:45:59] Travis Bader: Yeah. Wow. And the pain, you didn't go into shock, you didn't have the opportunity for the body to kind of numb that pain a little bit? 

[00:46:05] Heath Jackson: No. Um, definitely wasn't numbed at all.

[00:46:09] Heath Jackson: I don't shock. I don't know about I, I'm sure I was in some shock. Mm. Um, but I, I remember the pain. Yeah. And, and I remember the paramedics arriving, strapping me to a board. And the board they put me on, they had to roll me to the side to get the one side of the board under me. 

[00:46:25] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:46:26] Heath Jackson: And then rolled me back onto it.

[00:46:28] Heath Jackson: And, and then there was, there were three straps that sort of secured you to the, to the clamshell. It wasn't a clamshell, it was a board at the time. Uh, now they have clamshells. Right. Which would've been better. And the strap that they put over my midsection, um, when he sort of put it through and cinched it up, it, it closed my pelvis because everything was broken.

[00:46:48] Heath Jackson: And I wish I could have punched that guy, but I didn't have the, the ability at the time. Um, but yeah, not, not pleasant. And then they, they took me to I Oxford Hospital Hospital. And when they realized the extent of the injuries transferred me to Royal Columbia. 

[00:47:03] Travis Bader: So how long was the recovery on that one?

[00:47:06] Heath Jackson: The physical recovery is one thing. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the emotional, psychological recovery is a different story. 

[00:47:13] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:47:14] Heath Jackson: Physical recovery, I'd say probably a year and a half, two years. To be at the point where I was walking again. Hmm. Um, yeah, there was a lot that went into that, into physio, into, you know, pushing myself.

[00:47:28] Heath Jackson: I started physio earlier than I was supposed to. I just, I just was, I just wanted to get outta the bed. Hmm. Um, was chomping at the bit and yeah, I had to transfer myself from the bed to the wheelchair with my arms across a board. And, um, started with the wheelchair, just getting out of the bed and then slowly started weightbearing.

[00:47:52] Heath Jackson: Um. Little by little and the, yeah, the body, the body's ability to heal is remarkable. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I had to go through several s well, two, I think two or three surgeries. Uh, I have a bunch of titanium hardware in my pelvis now and, and some other places. And yeah, it was, you know, but it was, it was a tangible challenge.

[00:48:17] Heath Jackson: It was something tangible. The, the pain was tangible, you know, I could, I could feel it. Um, it was something that I, I could, I could feel, I could identify to work through. Hmm. The psychological and emotional impact was not tangible. It wasn't something that I could, you know, quantify and, and, and, um, find the parameters of and work toward moving past.

[00:48:43] Heath Jackson: I didn't understand, um, the full impact that, that the accident had had. I did go to a psychologist and was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and, uh, PTSD and severe anxiety post-accident. Um, so that was interesting. Did 

[00:49:03] Travis Bader: you feel you had any of that 

[00:49:04] Heath Jackson: pre-accident? No. Okay. No, definitely not. Um, no. I, I had never had any symptoms of, of any of those things pre-accident.

[00:49:14] Heath Jackson: So, 

[00:49:15] Travis Bader: major depressive disorder, anxiety. PTSD. PTSD. Yeah. What is, um, MDD look like? Um,

[00:49:28] Heath Jackson: it's hard, it's hard to put a finger on that. I mean, it was just the, the best way I can describe it is sort of like, um, a heavy gray rain cloud around you all the time. Like no matter what you were going through, it just. Nothing was pleasant, nothing was, nothing was the same, nothing was fun. Like, it was just, um, you know, it a constant state of depression.

[00:49:53] Heath Jackson: It's like, it's like when you're in the height of winter here in January, you know, and you're waiting for summer and it never comes. It's 

[00:49:59] Travis Bader: great. 

[00:50:00] Heath Jackson: It's like a, yeah, just a perennial January, you know, just all year long. It's just January. Um, and you can never, you know, nothing you, nothing you do, um, sort of blows the clouds away.

[00:50:15] Heath Jackson: It's just, you're just stuck in that, in a rut of, of cold wetness and an emotional sense. 

[00:50:23] Travis Bader: Well, what was your support network like? 

[00:50:25] Heath Jackson: Um, I, as I mentioned, I was married at the time. Right. She was great. Um. She was a great woman. Uh, not, not the right person for me by any means, but a great individual. And she was really my only real support.

[00:50:41] Heath Jackson: I had a handful of friends that were, that stuck by me through that. Um, the groups that I had been involved with leading up to that point, a lot of them sort of disappeared into the woodwork. I don't know if that's because I wasn't as fun to be around. I don't know if it's because they, they didn't really know how to offer support.

[00:51:02] Heath Jackson: Um, I don't know what the reason is, but they, they just sort of vanished. Um, and that. You know, the, the two years after the accident sort of culminated in, in a divorce, ultimately, um, amicable but difficult nonetheless. Mm. And, um, I think it just sort of exposed the cracks in the relationship that were already there.

[00:51:25] Heath Jackson: Uh, it just sort of, it was a catalyst made things break down faster and Yeah. That, yeah, I ended up, uh, in a little basement suite with both vehicles off the road. I couldn't afford to insure them, was stuck on disability, which, which paid peanuts basically covered my rent. And that was about it. My, my parents had gone back to Zimbabwe.

[00:51:48] Heath Jackson: Um, they, they were only here for a short period and then had, had gone back so. For the majority of that recovery time, the, the five years or so after the, the accident, they, I didn't really have much of a support network. Um, but the ones that were supportive, uh, really stepped up and, and stood out. 

[00:52:12] Travis Bader: It's interesting how things can happen in our life that act as a bit of a, a light that'll shine on and you find these groups and people who you thought were friends who just disappear.

[00:52:24] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Okay. Fair enough. See ya. Yeah. And sometimes you find that there's people that come out of the woodwork that you'd never expect, or people that you would expect to kind of be there, but they, they step up in ways that you'd never expect. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:52:40] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[00:52:42] Travis Bader: So tell me about what it was like with these people that were there for you.

[00:52:47] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I. Uh, communication, uh, was a big one. Just people reaching out and sort of, um, checking in. Um, there were some people that stepped up and, and offered help financially, uh, or in terms of resources, just food, that kind of thing. Hmm. Um, which was, you know, I never asked for it, but it was more appreciated than I think they'll, they'll ever really know.

[00:53:15] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. And, um, it was, it was a struggle. There were times where I, I, I existed on a bowl of Cheerios with water every day. Um, or, or would snack on dry cereal, that kind of thing. I just couldn't afford anything else. And I'm sure in, in hindsight, I'm sure there were probably resources available to me, like, um, government funded or, or food banks, that kind of thing.

[00:53:40] Heath Jackson: But I didn't, I didn't know at the time, and it was, I, I come from a background where you, you just take care of it. You know, you don't rely on other people. You're not entitled to anything. You're, you're on your own. No one's coming. You, you have to figure out a plan. So I, I didn't, I didn't look into that or lean into it as, as I probably should have.

[00:54:00] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, it, it ultimately, one of those individuals, um, I, I reached my rock bottom. I, I felt like those clouds had sort of closed in, like curtains all around me. I couldn't see past the immediate and, and was just completely hope hopeless. Um. And, and, and done fed up with everything. And, um, there were, there were a sequence of events that were really heavy and, and placed a burden on me that I had no capacity to be able to deal with financially.

[00:54:36] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:54:37] Heath Jackson: And the, I, I only saw one way out and yeah, it was, it was in that context, right. Literally at the, at the last moment that I heard a knock on my door and ignored it and heard a knock on my window and ignored that too. And then heard a knock on my sliding door at my patio and thought, who, who is making this much of an effort?

[00:54:58] Heath Jackson: So, put down what I was doing that I shouldn't have been doing. And went to you, you'd made a decision. You're gonna take your life. Yeah. Yes. 

[00:55:05] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:55:05] Heath Jackson: Uh, wasn't sure if, if you wanted me to, to No, that's fine. Come right out and say that, but 

[00:55:10] Travis Bader: I, I think there's a lot of value there. The reason why I want to talk about this mm-hmm.

[00:55:16] Travis Bader: Is because I don't think, uh, while your situation is unique to you, I don't think the feelings that you have or what you go through is gonna be a unique situation. Right. And I think there's a lot of people out there that could be feeling similar things or going through them, some similar things. And if we can extract from your experience, um, the raise of light, the, the places that help the most, the lessons that we learn, um, I think there's a lot of value to your story, to others.

[00:55:47] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I, I mean, that's why I'm here. Mm-hmm. Um, really that if, if the only thing I get out of this whole experience is being able to give someone else out there a bit of a different perspective and, and a bit of hope, a hopeful perspective, then it's, it's rewarding for me. That's, that's, yeah. 

[00:56:05] Travis Bader: So you're in a situation where you felt there was no hope, right?

[00:56:08] Travis Bader: You felt there was no other way out. Financial burdens were so great. The mindset was as such that, okay, well this is my time to check out. 

[00:56:18] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I mean, my, my identity was wrapped up in my abilities and my physique and my Mm. You know, it was, it was very materialistic. It was not, not in the terms of, not in terms of belongings, but just aesthetics.

[00:56:32] Heath Jackson: Mm. Um, my marriage, you know, and, and all of those things have been ripped away from me. And you were involved with the church as well? Yes. Are you still involved? No. Um, I, I have a very strong faith. Mm. Um, you know, but I, I've become very disenfranchised with the established church. Um, you know, there was a point where when I came back from Texas, from the, the Close protection course I was on, they.

[00:57:01] Heath Jackson: I saw my ex there with her mom. I gave them both a big hug, you know, we chatted for a bit. I sat with them through the service, and when I was leaving, my, my ex-wife was, um, in position at the front door to greet people arriving for the next service. So I saw her, she, she came out, you know, sort of chased me down in the parking lot to give me a hug goodbye and got emotional when she walked back up.

[00:57:24] Heath Jackson: The pastor saw her like that, and I wasn't privy to any of that conversation, but essentially from what she told me at the time, he asked her if it made it difficult for her to see me there. Uh, she said, yeah, you know, it was, it was emotional. So. That precipitated him reaching out to me, asking to get together.

[00:57:42] Heath Jackson: I met with him at a restaurant where he showed up with an elder from the church and asked me not to come back. Hmm. And, um, years later, he reached out again and apologized and asked to meet with me. So I met with him. Um, I had a young East Indian guy that was, um, a coworker that had, had become a Christian, was interested in going to church.

[00:58:02] Heath Jackson: I really wanted him to be able to plug in there because the doctrine was really sound. 

[00:58:06] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:58:07] Heath Jackson: And the teaching was good. He had a way of connecting with people that didn't grow up in the church. 

[00:58:12] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:58:13] Heath Jackson: And so I, I was, I was eager to be able to plug him in, but he didn't want to go without me. He wanted me to come with him.

[00:58:19] Heath Jackson: Hmm. So that was, you know, I met with, with the pastor at the, at this coffee shop. He had a great talk. He apologized profusely and, um. And then he said, when I was saying goodbye to him, he said, I'm just going to, I'll speak to so-and-so, my ex and just check with her that she's okay with it. And so, yeah, couple weeks, couple weeks later, I got a message from him to say, yeah, she's not okay with it.

[00:58:43] Heath Jackson: So don't, don't come. So that, that was it. That was the nail in the coffin from me. Um, did you have prior 

[00:58:50] Travis Bader: to that, was that a, um, a social network for you? 

[00:58:54] Heath Jackson: Absolutely. Yeah. That, I mean, the majority of my close friends were from the church group. They were church people. We had a, we host survival study in our home.

[00:59:03] Heath Jackson: Um, you know, I was, I was very connected. I was involved with that church right from when it was a church plant, and, and it blew up. It became huge. Mm-hmm. Um, and we were very involved. We did security, you know, at the church. We, and, and my, my buddies, my. My group was the church group. And, and that's what struck me was they were the ones that sort of vanished.

[00:59:27] Heath Jackson: The majority of them just vanished because I no longer fit inside that cookie cutter Christianese sort of image. Um, I had gone through a divorce. I was dealing with depression. 

[00:59:38] Travis Bader: I, 

[00:59:39] Heath Jackson: you 

[00:59:39] Travis Bader: know, 

[00:59:39] Heath Jackson: things were real, and yeah. That's, 

[00:59:41] Travis Bader: that's when you need that support the most. Exactly. 

[00:59:44] Heath Jackson: And, and I know, I know that like what, what Christians is supposed to be is inclusive, you know, reaching out to people in positions of need, reaching out, like, like Jesus' passion was for the lost sheep.

[00:59:57] Heath Jackson: Sure it wasn't, it wasn't for the ones in the, you know, in, in the herd. It was for the lost sheep. He, even when he was walking the planet, it was, it was the sick and dying. It was the, the prostitutes. It was the, you know, the people that needed him the most mm-hmm. That he reached out to. So the fact that, um, the established church, by and large, uh, is known to the secular world for judgemental attitudes, self-righteousness, exclusivity, things that are not at all what, what the, the church is supposed to be about.

[01:00:30] Heath Jackson: Um, just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. And yes, there's a lot of good to it. Um, you know, the. I don't discredit that. Uh, but it's, the church is people, the church is not a building. It's a human institution. And, and people are flawed right. By nature. So you can't expect a per a perfect portrayal of Christianity through the people.

[01:00:51] Heath Jackson: Like they're, they're all broken too, in their own ways. Yes. So yeah, my faith is so strong. My, you know, I, I believe in what I believe in, but my church is the outdoors, my church, uh, being around people that are authentic and, and just having real conversations and, and real in depth discussion. Mm-hmm. About spirituality.

[01:01:11] Travis Bader: Yeah. It's funny. Uh, bear grills, so he's open about his faith. He, uh, says something very similar to that. He says, my church isn't inside a, a chapel with all these other people. It's when I sit down around the table with my family and my kids mm-hmm. This is when I'm outside and we're engaging with each other.

[01:01:29] Travis Bader: And he says, well, maybe I'll read a little bit of scripture and. Before dinner or whatever it might be. Yeah. But that's church. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be, uh, pious on Sunday, getting dressed up, doing the, uh, doing the whole act. Yeah. And then going back to whatever it is you're doing. Yeah. There's, 

[01:01:47] Heath Jackson: you know, I, I mean, I grew up around that.

[01:01:48] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I grew up, we, we would go to the States, um, for a year at a time. We made two trips over during my, my first 20 years of life, I believe. And you go to all kinds of churches, uh, churches that supported my parents that they went to give feedback to. And, you know, they'd put on a slideshow and they'd have a table with Curios on it, and they'd, they'd talk to them about the work they were doing and the impact they were having.

[01:02:12] Heath Jackson: And I mean, the people spoke Christianese, like the, you know, the, Hey, how are ya, you know, welcome here. And I mean, it was just, it just, it just smacked of 

[01:02:23] Travis Bader: ugly do neighbor, you know? Yeah. 

[01:02:25] Heath Jackson: Yeah. And, um, their, even their interests seemed feigned. Mm. Um. N not all of them again. Sure. There are always exceptions to the rule and, and the exceptions to the rule were people I really appreciated there, there were authentic people there.

[01:02:39] Heath Jackson: Mm. But I grew up around that sort of false persona. Um, people who are acting a certain way one day of the week. 

[01:02:48] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you're sitting there in your basement, you don't have the social network anymore. Yeah. Heavy financial burdens. Yeah. You're not reaching out to anybody. No. Some people are reaching out to you.

[01:03:03] Heath Jackson: Yes. Okay. 

[01:03:04] Travis Bader: And you've got a shotgun. Yeah. 

[01:03:07] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[01:03:08] Travis Bader: And then you've got a friend knocking on the door. 

[01:03:10] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I put the shotgun down. Um. I went to the door and sort of had these wooden louvers on the window of the door, and I, I lifted one to peep through and he saw me. So, uh, I couldn't, I couldn't walk away from that.

[01:03:26] Heath Jackson: I knew you'd seen me. I had already written a letter to my parents and a letter to my sister, um, you know, leading up to pulling, pulling out the shotgun and that kind of thing. And as soon as I opened the door and, and he saw, he's a, a 6 5, 6 6, big German guy. Um, and he, he, he knew somehow, he knew something was up and he gave me this big bear hug, um, lifted me right off the ground and, I mean, I'm not small.

[01:03:58] Heath Jackson: No you're not. So, yeah, that he refused to leave my side. Um, it just happened at that morning. His, his wife was involved with firearms instruction at, at the Chillowak Center for the CBSA. Um. Her car wouldn't start that morning. So he had driven her to work and on the way home stopped in Abbotsford where I was at the time.

[01:04:20] Heath Jackson: Um, just to say hi, and knew I was home, knew I should have been home. Mm. And just hadn't given up for whatever reason. Um, you know, I, I believe personally that that was, there was definitely some divine intervention going on there. Mm-hmm. I mean, the number of coincidences that had to line up for that to happen, I, I don't believe one coincidence most of the time, let alone a handful like that.

[01:04:45] Heath Jackson: So yeah, he, he stayed with me. Uh, back in those days. It was hanging autumn, playing Call of Duty together. We went out to, to a pub and had a couple drinks and went home. He crashed on my couch, um, and wouldn't leave until I promised I wasn't gonna do anything stupid. And, uh, yeah, he's, he's been like, he's one of those friends that is loyal to the core that has been by my side since he met me.

[01:05:13] Heath Jackson: And, uh, one of my good hunting buddies, a lot of the hunting I've done has been with him. Uh, just an awesome guy. He's a pilot now. Mm. Um, and yeah, he, he saved my life. And the, the journey from there on was, um, it was a slow sort of pulling back on the yoke and pulling out of a nose dive. It was slow to begin with and got incrementally faster.

[01:05:40] Heath Jackson: The more, 

[01:05:42] Travis Bader: go ahead. What did that look like? 

[01:05:45] Heath Jackson: Um, I realized I needed to, I needed to make a shift. Hmm. Um, I think the, the fog cleared enough that I realized how selfish of a decision I had been considering and how, how hurtful that would've been to people in my life that I cared about. Mm. Um, and I, I didn't want to end up there again.

[01:06:08] Heath Jackson: So I started. I guess, I guess I just, I wanted to change things. I wanted different circumstances. Mm-hmm. And I gained a, I gained a bit of a motivation, um, to, to find what that was gonna look like for me. And again, I believe by divine intervention, those, those pieces fell into place for me. Um, I started to, I started to receive tools to add to my toolbox that, that I could use in that process.

[01:06:43] Heath Jackson: And one of those resources was an uncle of mine who had also been involved in the Rhodesian Bush war. Had moved from South Africa to Australia, very successful, uh, guy, very successful in business. I'd always had a really strong relationship with him. Uh, one of my, my mom's brothers, and he reached out to me.

[01:07:04] Heath Jackson: I don't know if it was because my, my parents asked him to, I don't, I don't know, reached out to me and I trusted him enough that I was willing to listen to what he had to say. Um, one of the most incredible guys I've, I've ever known. And, uh, yeah. He started mentoring me from Australia via WhatsApp. Um, he would send me video clips and challenge me to, to memorize them or would, would quiz me on them later.

[01:07:34] Heath Jackson: And 

[01:07:35] Travis Bader: video clips of what? 

[01:07:36] Heath Jackson: Uh, so one of, one of the most, uh, standoutish ones mm-hmm. Was a commencement speech given by Admiral William McCraven 

[01:07:43] Travis Bader: mm-hmm. 

[01:07:44] Heath Jackson: Who was the commander of JSO Yes. In the States. And he was giving a commencement speech to. To the graduates from the University of Texas. And, um, I guess the, the, the sort of framework of that speech had to do with his experience of Hell Week, uh, and training for the Navy Seals and the challenges that he had gone through there.

[01:08:09] Heath Jackson: And he broke them down into point form basically. Uh, and so yeah, it had to do with me, listen, I listened to that. It's about half an hour long and I listened to it probably 50 times. Mm-hmm. And pulled something new out of it every time and just incredibly motivational speech and a huge part of that, a huge component, uh, that sort of was an overlying theme throughout the whole, the whole speech was, uh, the importance of having an impact.

[01:08:41] Heath Jackson: And it struck me that. You know how good of a hunter you are. You know, I like 1998, I, I was given a trophy for Zimbabwe Hunter of the Year, junior Hunter of the Year. And, um, there were, there were accolades like that through my life that I'd sort of ba um, earned mm-hmm. And treasured. And they, they formed part of my identity and there were achievements, you know, the experiences I had had.

[01:09:08] Heath Jackson: Um, and it struck me all those things when you leave are gone. Mm-hmm. And no one cares about them. Mm-hmm. And no one's gonna remember them. So if, if I wanna leave a legacy and I don't have billions of dollars to, you know, to leave to family members, like what kind of impact can I have on the people that are following?

[01:09:31] Heath Jackson: What kind of legacy can I start to build? Um, 'cause that's something that will give me purpose and, um. And so that, I mean, that's why I'm here mm-hmm. Is, is to have an impact. If I can impact one person and that one person can take that whatever it was from this conversation that impacted them and, and carry it on down the road and impact another person, that, that, that becomes an exponential positive impact.

[01:09:58] Heath Jackson: Um, and that affects change over time. And the, several of the, the key points throughout that speech have also stuck with me through, over the years. I mean, it's been, uh, 15 years now since the accident. And, and those themes, those points still carry weight. They still impact my day-to-day life. Um, things like, for example, he talks about doing an infiltration into a harbor at night, undercover of darkness.

[01:10:31] Heath Jackson: They're dropped off about a kilometer offshore. They swim into the harbor with rebreathers underwater, even, even at that time, underwater at night with rebreathers. There, there is ambient light, starlight moonlight as you get into the harbor, the harbor lights. Um, but then he, he describes how their mission was to place charges on the hull of a boat, uh, of a ship.

[01:10:54] Heath Jackson: And they, they go under, under the keel of this ship and all of a sudden all of the ambient light is gone. Mm. And it's absolute pitch black. And, um, your ability to fall back on the training you've had on your, on your confidence, on your competence, um, and not panic when you can't see your hand in front of your face mm-hmm.

[01:11:19] Heath Jackson: And achieve the, the task is, um, is paramount. Mm-hmm. And who you are as a Navy seal, how you perform in that moment is all that counts. And, and so the, the, um, the sort of parallel to that in, in my life was, uh, you're, you're only as good as you are in your darkest hour. Mm. You're only as good of a person as you are when the proverbial hits the fan.

[01:11:47] Heath Jackson: When you, when everything is stripped away from you, when you, you know, you don't have hope, you don't have sunshine, you don't have positivity, that's when it matters who you are. That's when you have an opportunity to show the world and the people around you, what you're made of. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and that's what stays with people.

[01:12:09] Heath Jackson: Uh, who you are. When you know you're in a Jeep with the top down, cruising along a river and BC's backwoods, and you've got, you know, some drinks you're gonna have at the beach and maybe a cult that you're gonna smoke around a fire or, or like when things are good, when you're happy, when you've got a brand new relationship and you're excited and, uh, that who you are then doesn't matter.

[01:12:31] Heath Jackson: Um, what, what matters is, can you, can you be consistent? Can you be that kind of a positive person? Um, that kind of a solid individual when, when your circumstances are, are shit, you know, can you, can you pull it together? So that, that's something that really stuck with me, that I took as a personal challenge.

[01:12:52] Heath Jackson: And I mean, there's a biblical theme there too. Like the Bible talks about being content in any circumstance. 

[01:12:58] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:59] Heath Jackson: Uh, so it was a challenge spiritually for me as well. Yes. 

[01:13:02] Travis Bader: You know, I, a few things there come to mind. I'm reminded of the kids' book where the, uh, these animals are lost in the forest and one of them's given up.

[01:13:11] Travis Bader: I just can't see my way through and says, well, can, can you see the edge of the forest over there? No. Well, can you see your feet? Yes. Can you see your next step? Yes. Well, let's just take that. Yeah. Right. 

[01:13:22] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[01:13:23] Travis Bader: And you talk about. Purpose, how massive purpose is for, for people to be happy. Mm-hmm. You know, I've, I actually made a list of things for Mental Health Month coming up of, uh, and I had AI rank my list that I made of what's gonna give people the most impact.

[01:13:42] Travis Bader: And so I'll probably record some videos of that when that comes up. But, um, purpose is one of the things I have in there and it, and it's huge. Mm-hmm. Um, Harvard did a study, what's the number one predicate of, uh, happiness and contentment in people's lives across. It was an 80 year study across all different walks of life, all different, uh, ethnicities and backgrounds and beliefs, and it's strong social connections.

[01:14:09] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Um, you said it how selfish the decision that you were about to make was, you look back on that as being selfish. And one of the things that, uh, I have talked to other people about and I've, uh, I thought, well, you know, that's, that's a really interesting thing that can help give purpose. They say taking your own life doesn't solve the pain, it just transfers it.

[01:14:37] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Viktor Frankl had a, um, uh, older man come in, father modern local therapy, man, search for meaning, talks about purpose and the rest, and man says, my wife died. I just can't carry on living. I just, I'm so filled with the grief. He says, well, how would your wife feel if you died first? So she'd be beside herself.

[01:14:59] Travis Bader: It'd be terrible. I don't know how she'd go on. I says, well, would you want her to carry on her life and be miserable and well no. Right? And I says, well, you spared your wife that grief by outliving her. You have purpose, that is your purpose, is to bear that hardship and bear it in a way, like you say in your darkest hours.

[01:15:21] Travis Bader: That's what matters, man. Leaves. Okay. Makes sense. I'm good to go. And that little reframe of where that purpose is for people who are thinking of giving up because they don't have the money. Because it'll be easier on other people because whatever it might be, it doesn't work that way. Mm-hmm. And it's generational.

[01:15:41] Travis Bader: You have kids, you have family members. It's one of these things that will has been proven. It's an option for you. It's an option for me. Do you want that for other people? And if not, there's purpose. Yeah. 

[01:15:58] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[01:15:59] Travis Bader: Um, I like that. And the, how will you be met, remembered? That, that's something that I've used with people as well in different circumstances.

[01:16:10] Travis Bader: It's something I use with myself, right? It's holy crap, things are getting really bad. How do I want to be remembered? Well, not like, not like how I'm feeling right now, that's for sure. Yeah. Like I used that with my wife when she was giving birth with our first child. And I said, well, she'd always talk about, uh, her grandmother, what a tough woman she was.

[01:16:27] Travis Bader: I said, tomorrow's gonna come. All of this pain will have subsided and you're gonna be able to look back on how you acted over the next 27 hours or whatever, what she was a labor for. Like maybe, maybe this isn't the right thing. It was the right thing for her. She says, yeah, I'm not suggesting other people say this to their wives, but how do you want to be remembered?

[01:16:47] Travis Bader: How do you want your kids and grandkids to remember how you, uh, dealt with this difficulty? Yeah. And she says that reframe changed everything. 

[01:16:56] Heath Jackson: Uh, yeah. I mean, for me too, there's, this just popped into my head, but. Yeah, I grew up playing SLU Scout and SAS with my buddies. You know, my dad would, would cut us, um, basically like the outline of a, of a, a salt rifle, you know, and, and I'd have, he'd, he'd bolt a screw, a, um, a door bolt onto the side.

[01:17:17] Heath Jackson: So it was bolt action. Yeah. And, um, we grew up with those toys. We didn't have toy guns you could buy really. Um, but that was, I wanted, I wanted to be part of what my uncles and my dad had been part of. Mm-hmm. But by the time I was of military age, you know, there was nothing happening. There was no, the, the armed forces in Zimbabwe were all black at that stage, you know, like there, there was no prospect.

[01:17:40] Heath Jackson: I came over here, I had an obligation to, to the scholarship. You know, like I, there was an expectation there that I go to university and outta university, I needed to be making a living. I, I couldn't take a break. I had grandparents here. I was the only one here for a while. Um, so it's sticking around to sort of be there for them.

[01:17:58] Heath Jackson: I, I just never, I miss the boat. On, on, uh, joining the Armed Forces as a, as a regular member. And I often think, you know, I would've loved to have gone, um, JTF two or, or Seals or, um, search and rescue, uh, with, with Canadian forces. And, um, all of my, my hobbies, you know, align with that, like scuba diving, repelling, parachuting, all, all that kind of stuff is stuff I love to do.

[01:18:27] Heath Jackson: Hmm. So the thought of being paid to do it. Um, anyway, there's, there's this sort of overlying theme where I've, I've had this sort of imposter syndrome a lot of the time, you know, like I, I don't feel like I belong upon among the likes of Seb and some of the other guys you've had on your podcast, you know, 'cause there's a, there's a pedigree there.

[01:18:47] Heath Jackson: Um. And I, and I haven't really, yeah. You know, some anti-poaching. Yeah. Some law enforcement. But I wasn't an actual cop, you know, I wasn't a police officer. I was an ERT. Um, so there's, there's this, for a long time I felt like I, you know, I, I missed the boat. 

[01:19:05] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:19:05] Heath Jackson: And, and it struck me when I, when I was pulling, pulling outta that nose dive, like, this is my, this is my opportunity to show that I'm made of the same stuff.

[01:19:16] Travis Bader: A hundred percent. 

[01:19:16] Heath Jackson: This is my chance to show that, um, I have the grit mm-hmm. To, to make it through no matter what life throws at me, no matter what, stripped away from me. You know, I'm, I'm in a place now where I'm, I'm very fortunate. I'm blessed. I've got a beautiful home. I don't own it. I rent it. Um, but I have a beautiful living place.

[01:19:36] Heath Jackson: Uh, we have a boat, I have a bike. I have a car or a truck. Um, you know, I, I'm, I have a lot going for me, but. I, I am not disillusioned at all. I'm very well aware that next week all of that could be gone. 

[01:19:51] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:52] Heath Jackson: The, the relationships that I hold dear could be gone. None of the stuff that I have around me is permanent.

[01:20:00] Heath Jackson: It, it will all at some point, fade away. And, and I'm okay with that, you know, and that the experience that I went through is what enabled me to, to reach that stage where my happiness, my contentment, my authenticity is not contingent upon any relationship or material belonging. 

[01:20:21] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:20:21] Heath Jackson: That's the most valuable, one of the most valuable lessons that I came out of that with.

[01:20:26] Travis Bader: And that's a hard earned lesson. Mm-hmm. And that's a difficult one to share with other people if they haven't earned it in the same way. Some people are smart, right. Some people can listen, look at what you've done, pick it up, and learn and grow from that. I've always been one of those ones who has to touch the stove to learn that it's hot.

[01:20:44] Travis Bader: Yeah. Oh, that's what you meant by hot? Yeah, like hot. What do you mean? Like hot? Hot? Like how hot, right. Yeah. Can I do it real quick? Um, but there's, you, you know, you talk about, oh, I wasn't ERT or it wasn't like if you're a city cop, well, but you're not, um, uh, clue or oka or, or ERT or, 

[01:21:05] Heath Jackson: yeah. 

[01:21:05] Travis Bader: Um, if you're ert well you're, you're not SEAL or Delta Force JTF two or SaaS, right?

[01:21:12] Travis Bader: Yeah. If you're SaaS, like, there's always levels to these things. I'm, I'm reminded like, uh, Dean Nugent, he was out climbing with Jace Bud and Jace High level mountaineer, well accredited ex British Army, um, actually did SCS selection a couple of times and uh, uh, Dean, he's just kind of getting into it. Girl comes up, says, oh, you're a climber.

[01:21:33] Travis Bader: He, oh, no, no, I'm not a climber. I Jace over here. He's the climber. And she's like, well. I don't know. You got a harness and a helmet on, you're attached to a rope. I'm not, you look like a climber to me. Right. It's like, I guess I'm a climber, right? 

[01:21:47] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[01:21:48] Travis Bader: There's always gonna be, uh, levels to these things 

[01:21:51] Heath Jackson: and we're, we're our own toughest critics.

[01:21:53] Heath Jackson: Yeah. You know, no one, no one looks at us with as much criticism as we do. Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:58] Travis Bader: And no one cares. 

[01:22:00] Heath Jackson: Yeah. 

[01:22:00] Travis Bader: Really. Uh, and the things that we do bad, we're so embarrassed about or whatever it might be. Mm-hmm. It's not even other, other people's radar for the most part. And if it's on their radar, it's shortly on their radar.

[01:22:11] Travis Bader: And the important people, they don't care. Right. Yeah. The people who would pick at the in poke holes and point fingers, it's like they say, um, nobody ever craps on the people behind them. Right. Um, sorry. Nobody ever craps on the people ahead of them. That makes a, a little bit more sense. Um. Do I have that one right?

[01:22:39] Travis Bader: No, it, it essentially, 

[01:22:40] Heath Jackson: yeah. People are trying to tear it on to people ahead of them. 

[01:22:42] Travis Bader: Thank you. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Uh, the people ahead of you, they wanna see you succeed. Right. And so the people, well, 

[01:22:50] Heath Jackson: the, yeah. The 

[01:22:50] Travis Bader: people 

[01:22:50] Heath Jackson: behind them, they wanna see succeed because they're already there. Right. The people ahead of them, they want to be where they are.

[01:22:56] Heath Jackson: So they don't, they don't like their, that they're succeeding. I think 

[01:23:00] Travis Bader: maybe you made that a lot more eloquent than I, but, but, and that's something always to keep in mind. Why is this person trying to tear me down? Well, it's not because they're ahead of me. It's not 'cause they're better than me in any single way.

[01:23:12] Travis Bader: It's because they're unable to even be where I'm at. Yeah. And the only way that they can see themselves as being successful is by tearing down the others around them. 

[01:23:22] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Those who've who've achieved what they want. Yeah. 

[01:23:25] Travis Bader: Yeah. So that judgment that you get from other people, maybe that's another thing that people can keep in the back of their head.

[01:23:30] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

[01:23:31] Travis Bader: Because we are social creatures and judgment means something. And you weren't reaching out for help. Why, because you're concerned about how you might look or people judging you. Why, why wouldn't you reach out? 

[01:23:42] Heath Jackson: You know, there wasn't really a, a cognitive exercise attached to that. So all I can do really is hypothesize.

[01:23:49] Heath Jackson: There must have been some sort of psych subconscious. I, I'm sure it had something to do with the fact that I, number one, I didn't have, um, the, the network around me that I felt I could confide into that extent. Um, like I said, my parents were outta country for the majority of that stretch when it was the worst.

[01:24:13] Heath Jackson: Um, my parent, my, my sister was far away and they all had lives, lives and problems of their own. I just didn't, I didn't want to be a burden. 

[01:24:23] Travis Bader: Right. And I think that's it there. 

[01:24:24] Heath Jackson: And I, and a lot of the time, you know, a lot of the time I see people reaching out on social media for handouts. Um. I'm in some groups, some community groups, you know, and it, it's, it amazes me, uh, the number of times people will reach out with, with no shame at all.

[01:24:42] Heath Jackson: And it's repeated. Mm. And, you know, it, it, it does not feel authentic to me. Mm-hmm. And I didn't want to be one of those people. I didn't want to expect that because I had made bad decisions. Someone else was gonna step up and help me. Um, there was, there was a lot, you know, and I, yeah, I, I came to the point where I realized that where, where I was ultimately when you boil it down enough was solely res, um, was solely a consequence of my own decisions, uh, my own actions.

[01:25:19] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. The, the kid that ran the stop sign, you know, it wasn't his fault. Um, my ex-wife, nothing was her fault. Like, not nothing was anyone else's fault but my own. Mm-hmm. But that was. It was a, it was a tough pill to swallow, but it was empowering at the same time. 

[01:25:35] Travis Bader: You need 

[01:25:35] Heath Jackson: that because I, I realized the flip side of that coin was if, if I'm gonna end up where I want to be in life with the set of circumstances that I desire for myself, that's also only gonna be my fault.

[01:25:51] Heath Jackson: It's, it's only gonna be a, a result of my decisions, my actions. It's not gonna be a result of handouts, it's not gonna be a result of other people's decisions. I fully have the potential within myself to place myself where I want to be, um, because I fully had the potential in my, within myself, to place myself at rock bottom.

[01:26:14] Travis Bader: I think, uh, the, when you talk about the flip side, on that flip side as well, is if it's not your fault why these things happened, that means you don't have any control over why these things are happening to you. Mm-hmm. And if you don't have any control and everything you're looking at is like, oh, now I'm in an accident and I'm with friend groups leaving out, you're a victim.

[01:26:35] Travis Bader: You're the victim. Mm-hmm. And the faster people can get themselves outta this victim mentality, the faster they're able to start getting themselves on track to healing. 

[01:26:44] Heath Jackson: Yeah. A hundred percent. 

[01:26:46] Travis Bader: Um, you know, there's a, um, a doctor and he says, um, patients will come in, they'll say that they're, they're at the end, they're gonna take their life.

[01:26:56] Travis Bader: And he says, you know, I don't try and tell them, no, here's what you gotta live for. Here's what he says. I say, that might be a good idea, but now's not the time to make that decision. You're probably not thinking clearly in this moment. How about you write it down and we'll just take a look at this in, in a month or so?

[01:27:13] Travis Bader: Yeah. And we'll come back and, and you know, if after a few more visits we're looking at this, it still seems like a, like the way to go. Maybe it is the idea, but may have a sober second thought. And you look at this, he said he hasn't lost anybody. Mm-hmm. By doing that. Um, it gives them control and power and it's not, not like it's all being taken from them.

[01:27:34] Travis Bader: Yeah. It gives 'em agency. Gives 'em agency. Mm-hmm. You had some letters that you wrote to your family. Did you hold onto them? 

[01:27:41] Heath Jackson: I had sent the one to my parents. I don't think I had sent the, the one to my sister. Mm. Um, but either way they're their history now. Oh, you emailed them? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, 

[01:27:51] Travis Bader: I think it was Facebook Messenger or something like that with a sober second thought.

[01:27:55] Travis Bader: Looking back at them, does it look ridiculous? 

[01:27:59] Heath Jackson: No. Uh, I wouldn't call it ridiculous. Um, irrational. 

[01:28:04] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:28:05] Heath Jackson: Maybe, um, you know, it wasn't a cry for help, it was just, it was an expression of gratitude. Um, an apology in advance, I guess. Um, yeah, it wasn't ridiculous because it was, it was relevant at the time. Uh, it was heartfelt and, and it wasn't a cry for help.

[01:28:29] Heath Jackson: It was, it was authentic. Um, the decision, again, selfish because it was only me I was thinking of, you know, like that that decision would've been to alleviate my own pain. Mm. Um, and, and situation. But it, like you said, it would've transferred it to someone else. So by definition, a selfish decision. Um, yeah.

[01:28:56] Heath Jackson: I, I mean, I think you, you can ask pretty much anyone what they felt when they were selfless, like what sort of feelings they had when they did something selfless. They can recall a self selfless experience, something they did to, to help someone else without any benefit to themselves. Um, I. Uh, in my experience, that's always a gratifying feeling.

[01:29:22] Heath Jackson: It's always gratifying to sacrifice for someone else to, to do something for someone else, um, is a, 

[01:29:31] Travis Bader: is a rewarding thing. So, yeah, I agree. I, I think that mentality of, uh, everyone likes to use it, well, I gotta, I gotta take care of me first, right? Mm-hmm. Um, it's just like that airplane, uh, you know, airbags come out, gotta get your own airbag on, take care of yourself so you can take care of others.

[01:29:49] Travis Bader: Right? Well, I think people take that analogy too far and sometimes there's a lot of value in helping somebody else, and you'll re this isn't an airbag analogy. I'm not just taking care of me first. If I can help take care of you, I all of a sudden start feeling, oh, geez, we both got something outta that one.

[01:30:11] Travis Bader: Right. Well, you have 

[01:30:11] Heath Jackson: purpose. 

[01:30:12] Travis Bader: Right? 

[01:30:13] Heath Jackson: Right. And you're, I mean, uh, again, I lost, I lost the. It was a really, I promise all the viewers, it would've been an epiphany. It was a fantastic thought that I just had that just flew outta my head. Um, yeah. Hopefully it'll come back to me, but, um, 

[01:30:34] Travis Bader: so I should watch my words.

[01:30:36] Travis Bader: Uh, when I say, when you look back on the letter, was it, uh, ridiculous and I guess I, I should have, uh, left that open-ended and asked what your thoughts were. When you look back on that, I don't, for one second, think it would be ridiculous. Mm-hmm. But I would think that looking back with a sober second thought this time, you'd say, what was I thinking?

[01:30:54] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I, I, I took that to mean you were asking if I regretted it right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't regret that exercise. What I regret was the selfishness. Um. Yeah, you were, there's, sorry. Um, you were talking about how people take it too far to be Yes. To look after yourself first. The thought that I had on that was this, there's this whole movement, like you see it all over the place, especially, um, like single women on social media.

[01:31:21] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. Talking about self-love. I see that a lot. Yes. It's, it's like this movement, you know, self-love. If, if, if something isn't benefiting me, I'm cutting it outta my life. Mm-hmm. Um, where's your purpose? 

[01:31:33] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:31:34] Heath Jackson: Like what if, if you're, if your only purpose is looking after yourself, that's not purpose. Like you're, our, our purpose is in community.

[01:31:44] Heath Jackson: Our purpose is in supporting people that need it. Um, yeah. You know, I think, I think a lot of it is just terminology. It's verbiage. Um, people, self-love is a good thing. Sure. Self-centeredness is not, and sometimes self-centeredness is labeled as self-love. And so people embrace it. Just like a lot of other things in, in society these days that people place a, you know, rainbows and daisies Sure.

[01:32:11] Heath Jackson: Sunshine and butterflies label on something, suddenly it becomes acceptable. Mm. Um, but it doesn't change the reality of what that thing is. And, and it's the same, same with self-centeredness. You know, like there's a fine line. It's important to, it's important to look after yourself, but it's just as important to look after other people and be available and, and step up.

[01:32:34] Heath Jackson: Um, because it's fulfilling. Like, it, it gives you, it's rewarding. It, it is self-love to help other people. 

[01:32:43] Travis Bader: I think that's a. A very good distinction. You were put on medication. 

[01:32:49] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:49] Travis Bader: And you took yourself off that medication? Cold Turkey. Yeah. How long were you on it for?

[01:33:01] Heath Jackson: About four, four years. 

[01:33:03] Travis Bader: That'd be for the major depressive? Probably SSRI or SI Anxiety. Yeah. 

[01:33:08] Heath Jackson: Okay. Yeah, there were two, two or three meds on he pretty heavy doses and I took everything I had and flushed it on the toilet. 

[01:33:17] Travis Bader: When? Right. 

[01:33:18] Heath Jackson: Immediately following? No, no, it was sometime after. Okay. Yeah, it was part of the process for me.

[01:33:24] Heath Jackson: Um, yeah, I had moved at that stage, so I know it was a while later. Okay. And yeah, I just, I just flushed all of it and it was, I would not recommend that. I would recommend that you sort of. Talk to your doctor, wean yourself off of it, like do it the right way. Um, but for me, that was, that was what I did. I just flushed it and I was like, no, I'm, I'm dealing with this myself.

[01:33:47] Heath Jackson: I've got the agency, I've, I've got, I've got the reins in my mind. 

[01:33:51] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:33:52] Heath Jackson: I'm not gonna allow my thoughts to dictate, to me, I'm not gonna allow medication to, to alter my personality and my, my frame of mind. Uh, I got this. So, and I did, you know, I, for a week or so, I had little electric jolts going up my spine and other withdrawal symptoms.

[01:34:09] Heath Jackson: But, but it was a smart choice for me. Okay. Um, because it, it was me. It was, I'm the one that, that handled the, the struggles I was having. Not, not the medication. Like I didn't, I didn't want to crutch. Mm-hmm. Um, I wanted to face it head on. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I mean, like we talked about before, a lot of people take, um.

[01:34:34] Heath Jackson: Well, not prognosis, but um, diagnosis as a life sentence. 

[01:34:38] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah. And they wear it, 

[01:34:39] Heath Jackson: they surrender themselves to that. This is my reality. I'm, I have anxiety, I have depression. Yeah. I have PTSD, I have whatever. Ah, you, you don't have to keep it. You're feeling it. Sure. Yeah. You're feeling it. It's to help you identify what it is you're going through.

[01:34:53] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:34:53] Heath Jackson: Um, but you, you don't have to carry that your whole life. You, you ev I, I'm a firm believer. I'm sure there are experts out there that'll disagree. I'm a firm believer that everyone has the ability to take the reins of their thoughts, to not allow their thoughts to dictate to them. To, to start filtering out the negative and shift their mindset.

[01:35:15] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. I said something similar. I was asked to give a talk for a university in California by a doctor for his class, and I gave a talk and, uh, the doctor pointed at a few things that said, okay, yeah, okay. Maybe not everybody. Right. There's always gonna be people who come from, um, or severely disabled who, uh, won't be able to, uh, control certain things in the same way that perhaps I'm relaying.

[01:35:47] Travis Bader: Fair enough. The medication thing was another interesting one. I think that medication can be an important tool mm-hmm. For somebody who's in crisis for a quick stop gap. And unfortunately, uh, it isn't, I don't see it always used that way. Uh, medication's supposed to be something that's used in conjunction with a lifestyle change, finding purpose, uh, uh, exercise, diet, all of these other things that kind of go along with it.

[01:36:15] Travis Bader: And then you wean off and, and go forward. I look at our medical system. I was given my doctor hell a while ago. I was like, why don't you just like my knee? What the hell's wrong? Send me in for imaging. Let's figure out what's going on here. And like, I don't want to take medication. I don't want to up these different pills for the pain.

[01:36:33] Travis Bader: Let's just figure out what the pain is and let's address that. Right? 

[01:36:36] Heath Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:36:37] Travis Bader: He says, well, that's not how we're taught. I'm like, what do you mean? He says, well, we're, we're taught to address a symptom. If there's no more symptom than the problem solved, I says, so does that mean like I gotta. What to take these antiinflammants for my knee for the rest of my life so that they get rid of that symptom and well, yeah.

[01:36:54] Travis Bader: I said that's, that's not an approach that makes sense to me. Right. Yeah. And I think that same approach is being used often with mental health problems. Oh. It's not, it's not showing the symptom. And after a while the body adapts to the medication and, and then they're prescribing a higher dosage or a different type so that they can look at these symptoms and the meds will have their own symptoms that go along with that.

[01:37:15] Travis Bader: Yeah. And then they sub, they subscribe 

[01:37:17] Heath Jackson: things to deal with 

[01:37:18] Travis Bader: those symptoms. Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it's a bit of an endless cycle, I think. Um, I think people have way more personal agency then they're led to belief. Mm-hmm. I think there's a reason why there's a learned helplessness within society, and I think the more people that can adopt.

[01:37:37] Travis Bader: Ownership mindset, like what you're talking about, and realize the level of control that they have, even over small things in their life, which will grow into bigger, uh, the more they realize maybe they don't really have problems, maybe their environment needs to change. Maybe what they have is actually a gift.

[01:37:54] Travis Bader: Right. Just a different way of looking at it. 

[01:37:56] Heath Jackson: Yep. Absolutely. 

[01:37:58] Travis Bader: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about? 

[01:38:02] Heath Jackson: Probably a lot. I think there is. I'm sure I'll, I'm sure I'll think back and, you know, like think, oh, I wish I'd told this story about the lion or the elephant or whatever.

[01:38:11] Heath Jackson: And you have a story about a lion in the elephant. Oh yeah. I've got, I've got tons of stories. Um, yeah, I'm sure there are lots of things that'll come to mind, but I'm, yeah, you 

[01:38:19] Travis Bader: can't cover everything. So it is funny, uh, the elephant one, I remember years ago, I think it was in my early twenties, and I saw this, um.

[01:38:28] Travis Bader: There's a company, a buddy says, oh, you gotta check this one. Oh, they'll teach you how to be a businessman without having to go through business school. And so you're going through these different exercises and, and uh, some of 'em are like, what do you wanna do? I'm like, I kinda wanna ride an elephant. I think that'd be cool.

[01:38:44] Travis Bader: So I'm writing this stuff down, right? And anyways, I got filed away. I don't know where years later someone's asking in a, a more official capacity. Well, do you have any business plans? I'm like, well, not really like any work event, well, I got this stuff and he is looking through this. I wanna ride an elephant, Travis.

[01:39:00] Travis Bader: This isn't business plan. It's like, all right, fine. Yeah. And, and you do work a lot of work trying to help people who are, um, victims of abuse. 

[01:39:11] Heath Jackson: Yeah. I mean that True haven is still relatively speaking in its infancy. Um, but it's a fantastic. Cause mm-hmm. Uh, it's something that I'm very passionate about.

[01:39:21] Heath Jackson: I've, I've, I think, I mean, it's a, it's a multiplicity of, of, um, contributing factors that have, that sort of made me that way. Um, my dad, you know, my dad's like a, he's just a solid man, you know, he, he raised me with a respect, um, for women and, and respect for wildlife and animals. Mm. Um, and I, my experience in boarding school, being bullied, seeing other people sort of victimized, um, growing up in Africa, you know, some of the stuff you see there, people, the abuse, some people go through, and the hardship.

[01:40:03] Heath Jackson: And, um, I guess having a, having had somewhat of a unique, um, perspective and view into, um. Hu humanity and the, the common themes that carry across different races and creeds and cultures and, um, the fact that people hurt no matter what color they are. 

[01:40:28] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:40:29] Heath Jackson: Uh, it just, there's a, there's a level of compassion there, and for women, for animals, for other people, for people in, in different difficult circumstances.

[01:40:37] Heath Jackson: And being able to, um, being able to use my skillset, um, that I've, you know, partly I was born with part, part natural ability, part training. Like there's a lot of training that I've gone through over the years for different jobs, different, um, positions I've filled, um, that I'm able to bring to bear. And, um, the ability to, to remain composed in the face of someone that's red and angry and screaming and thinks they're, you know, like they're, they're, they can take anyone.

[01:41:10] Heath Jackson: Um, I, I. Being able to bring that to a cir, a circumstance, a situation where someone's in fear for their life or the fear for their kids' lives. And, um, and sort of, it's almost like bio osmosis. You convey some of that, uh, confidence and, and, um, calmness to people that are going through, um, crisis and, and being threatened by someone who's really just a big coward.

[01:41:37] Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. Um, that's really rewarding for me. So. Yeah, being able to mentor, same thing. Um, being able to mentor people that are, that are facing adversity that are in their darkest hour, that, that don't know where to turn, don't know who to trust, to, to be authentic with and expose their, you know, the things they're not the most proud of about their lives.

[01:41:59] Heath Jackson: Um, you know, I'm, I may not have a lot to, to bring to bear in terms of financial resources and that kind of thing, but I do have experiences. I do have an idea of what a, um, shifting your paradigm, shifting your mindset can do. And I love to be able to, to impart that with other people. And in the process, it builds a relationship.

[01:42:22] Heath Jackson: Mm. Uh, builds the kind of relationships that show up at your door and knock on your window and when you need it the most. So, um, yeah. And it gives me purpose. So, yeah, I, I, I love being able to be involved with those kinds of causes. 

[01:42:36] Travis Bader: Well, Heath, I'm gonna put links in the description to your social media so people can find a way to contact you Yeah, if they wanted to, and as well as to True Haven, so they can see those resources.

[01:42:49] Travis Bader: Thank you very much for sharing your story on the Silver Pole Podcast, and I really appreciate coming here to do that. I really enjoyed the conversation. 

[01:42:58] Heath Jackson: I did too. Thank you very much, Travis. It's an honor.